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[Poll]

At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy become criminal?


When you merely think about the fantasy?
  16% (11)
When you do any act in favor of the fantasy?
  33% (23)
When you actually perform the fantasy?
  50% (34)


Total Votes : 68
(last vote on : 4/6/2013 3:17:30 PM)
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RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 8:33:04 PM   
Charles6682


Posts: 1820
Joined: 10/1/2007
From: Saint Pete,FL
Status: offline 		http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/largo-puppeteer-arrested-in-federal-kidnapping-conspiracy-child-porn-case/1241906 Here is a link to a simliar story mentioned in this message.This is yet another example of a sicko who had some disgusting fantasies that he never actually made a reality.This case is still in the process,as this occured last year.There are some sick people out there who don't need to be among civilized society.

< Message edited by Charles6682 -- 3/12/2013 8:36:11 PM >

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(in reply to MalcolmNathaniel)
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RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 8:38:36 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		Nice bit of fearmongering there... and neither correct, nor useful.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkfeather

Gilberto was convicted by fear. Fear of what he was thinking and fear of what he "might" have done. If he had acted those fantasies out to their conclusions, yes he would have been guilty. But the truth is he never did. The evidence presented against him at trial so inflamed the jury against him (websites visited, images viewed, etc), that they saw the monster he could have been not the simple kinky freak he was.



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RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 8:45:33 PM   
Dyfrynt


Posts: 202
Joined: 4/19/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkfeather

When did this country become the place where innocent until proven guilty became, crime prevention?? As his defense attorney tried to point out over and over, all that he was guilty of was fantasizing, and yes perhaps pushing the boundaries on that a bit too far. But YES, we should absolutely wait until he actually acts on them. We should never become the society who convicts someone before they actually commits a crime, just because that crime may have serious ramifications. Why, because what happens if the person in question, oh I don't know, at the last minute decided NOT to do that crime. You know, human will, choice, etc. If you put that guy in jail before he committed that act, he did not get the chance to make the choice. You essentially made that for him. This, and this alone, is why watching him and waiting was warranted. Letting him make the choice himself.



Perhaps pushing the boundaries too far?? Seriously???? He was conducting live surveillance of potential victims; in essence stalking these women. That is not fantasy fiction. That is real actions. As a police officer he was abusing his authority right there. But he was also ferreting out private details of these women's lives by misusing police databases, again abusing his power as a police officer.

He made those choices himself. He is guilty of those crimes. It is not a matter of whether he carried out even more horrible crimes. He must pay for the crimes he did do.

Reading the article more fully it does say he could receive up to life in prison, not that he had already received that punishment. As the punishment phase has yet to be determined, this is no longer an issue for me, and won't be until the sentence is actually given.


(in reply to Darkfeather)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 8:45:59 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		That covers it. Conspiracy is a cut and dried conviction under the federal elements and rules.


quote:

ORIGINAL: MalcolmNathaniel

Let's take the cannibalism fantasy out of this. Let's take the "he's a cop" bit out too.

Let's say that it was to kidnap for ransom with a co-conspirator.

He did surveillance, he illegally accessed databases, he planned trips.

That alone makes him guilty of conspiracy to kidnap. That can carry a life sentence - no kinky fantasies included.

You don't wait until someone pointing a gun pulls the trigger to shoot back, nor do you wait until someone has actually kidnapped someone to arrest them.



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RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 9:26:06 PM   
Darkfeather


Posts: 1142
Joined: 3/13/2007
Status: offline 		I love how easily people are in giving up their civil rights in the name of perceived "greater good" or "justice. Once again, Patriot Act anyone? I say again, where in the testimony does it say he ACTIVELY engaged in surveillance?? What he did was check the database on the women's address and other info. Something perhaps any other cop may do in a similar first date situation. Abuse of power, maybe. Misdemeanor, sure. Life sentence, hell no. And please stop saying potential life sentence, we all know in the air of his case, he will certainly not get the minimum. He will in all likelihood get the maximum. If he could have been given the death sentence, they would have. Everyone here is hell bent on convicting the man on his minor infractions and even those were minimally proven if that. Basically, what he really did was contact a few women, talk to them over IM and emails, arrange to meet them. In the interim, he checked them out using official resources. The info in the emails and IMs were found to be of a kinky and fantasy related nature. It was this, coupled with his choices in websites, that resulted in his conviction. Not his abuse of power, not his conspiracy to kidnap, etc. All that is just fluff to mask the real objective. The truth is, he never, NEVER met any of those women. Never saw any of those women. Hell, he never even talked to any of them on the phone. He never followed then in his car, he never took pictures of them, etc. The above is the extent of the "conspiracy to kidnap" case against him. Everything, period

(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 9:29:08 PM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline 		You should all be reading all the articles on this case before you go defending "thoughts". If you keep a fantasy to yourself and never share it with anyone or ever, ever, do anything to make it reality, then fine. However in this case:

This sick fuck was planning to do this. He was planning to do this to his own WIFE, who found his plans.

He was conducting surveillance and breaking into databases.

He communicated with OTHER guys into this sick shit with the intent of having this come to fruition.

He need to be hospitalized in a a hospital for the criminally insane.


(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 9:31:00 PM   
MalcolmNathaniel


Posts: 1394
Joined: 9/20/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkfeather

... Everyone here is hell bent on convicting the man...


No need for us to convict him. That's what a jury of his peers did.

(in reply to Darkfeather)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 9:31:00 PM   
njlauren


Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
Status: offline 		What Darkfeather is leaving out is that thoughts in our heads, fantasies, cannot be made criminal, but actions that show someone is going beyond the fantasy stage can be. Someone can get off on images of raping women, but if they find evidence the guy is picking out victims, buying chloroform or knockout drops, rope, there is clear indications he is planning to act.

This guy might fantasize about raping and eating women, but he went well beyond that, he was actually picking out real victims (not fantasy ones, real ones), he was looking up where they lived, where they worked, and that is indication of actually planning to hurt someone else, to carry it through. Yes, it is a fine line, someone could do that (wasn't it Pete Townsend of the Who who got snagged for child porn, and supposedly he was researching stuff for a book), but when public safety is involved that line has to be drawn in a place of safety.A guy fantasizing about having sex with children is not illegal, a guy who does that and then is seen checking out school yards, taking pictures of kids, approaching kids, is a threat.

Lots of estranged husbands and boyfriends (and wives and girlfriends) probably fantasize about butchering their ex, cutting off their wee wee, you name it..but if they start calling them up and harassing them, if they talk to a buddy and say "I'm gonna fuck the bitch up", and they find the guy has bought a gun, and has been following his ex, they have every reason to believe he is out to hurt her.

Darkfeather isn't wrong, we have to be very careful about this, because it is a very fine line. But what experience has taught us is the ivory tower approach to things is bogus; free speech is great, but someone yelling at a crowd go kill the jews is not free speech, it is incitement to riot. A preacher who tells his congregation that gays are filth and should be exterminated cannot hide behind freedom of religion, if it is felt he is literslly telling his members to do it.

Yeah, in a perfect world they would note what douchebag was doing, they would put surveillance on him, follow him around, and see what happens. Part of the problem here is he was a cop, and sorry, the cop have this thin blue line mentality, they will cover up everything including murder if it involves one of their own. More importantly, that kind of surveillance is great in the movies, but in real life they don't have the manpower and resources to do that, and it isn't like on tv where they will watch him 24/7 until he makes his move. Not to mention that as a cop, he likely would be able to find out if anything was going on, and duck it.......

THe same kind of thing applies to where a spouse is abusive, and want to know a sad truth? A lot of the time, a spouse wll say their ex is out to get them, threatening them, the cops laugh at them, they get an order of protection, and guess what? The next day they find the ex dead and some cop is scratching his ass, saying 'oh, gee, I'm sorry', because they didn't give a shit or didn't take it seriously.


Absolute rights are great things, but when it comes down to the possibility of harm versus rights, then rights sometimes get pushed aside. When that guy started finding real victims, when he started finding out names, addresses, used his position as a cop, worked with others on it, it stopped being a harmless fantasy, it became a very potential threat. Even with surveillance, the odds are that joker would succeed, and then what would you tell the family of the victim, darkfeather, gee, I'm sorry but his rights were worth more then your daughter's life? In a perfect world they would put surveillance on the guy, 24/7, and catch him if he did try, but given he a)was a cop and b)is in a city where they can't afford 24/7 surveilliance on him that could last weeks or months, despite what they show on Law and Order, in this case they acted properly IMO, because he took it from the generalized fantasy, into taking specific action, which under the law, indicates intent. There are laws on the books for conspiracy, you can be arrested for conspiracy to commit murder, you can be arrested for conspiracy to commit kidnapping, I think you can be for conspiracy to commit robbery as well (planning to rob a bank vault, for example), it is criminal conspiracy. You could argue until you are blue in the face the never planned to do it, or could stop before doing it, but the actual act of planning it is still a crime.

Should he get life? No, it is too nebulous for that, but I think he needs both some pretty significant time in Jail and also forced psych evaluations, to see if when he gets out he would be likely to actually do this stuff.

(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 9:39:08 PM   
Darkfeather


Posts: 1142
Joined: 3/13/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MalcolmNathaniel


quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkfeather

... Everyone here is hell bent on convicting the man...


No need for us to convict him. That's what a jury of his peers did.



No, a jury of his peers convicted him of being a pervert

(in reply to MalcolmNathaniel)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 9:42:13 PM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline 		No, they convicted a pervert who was overtly planning the deeds. Try to pay attention to the evidence.

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 9:42:22 PM   
njlauren


Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkfeather

I love how easily people are in giving up their civil rights in the name of perceived "greater good" or "justice. Once again, Patriot Act anyone? I say again, where in the testimony does it say he ACTIVELY engaged in surveillance?? What he did was check the database on the women's address and other info. Something perhaps any other cop may do in a similar first date situation. Abuse of power, maybe. Misdemeanor, sure. Life sentence, hell no. And please stop saying potential life sentence, we all know in the air of his case, he will certainly not get the minimum. He will in all likelihood get the maximum. If he could have been given the death sentence, they would have. Everyone here is hell bent on convicting the man on his minor infractions and even those were minimally proven if that. Basically, what he really did was contact a few women, talk to them over IM and emails, arrange to meet them. In the interim, he checked them out using official resources. The info in the emails and IMs were found to be of a kinky and fantasy related nature. It was this, coupled with his choices in websites, that resulted in his conviction. Not his abuse of power, not his conspiracy to kidnap, etc. All that is just fluff to mask the real objective. The truth is, he never, NEVER met any of those women. Never saw any of those women. Hell, he never even talked to any of them on the phone. He never followed then in his car, he never took pictures of them, etc. The above is the extent of the "conspiracy to kidnap" case against him. Everything, period


Bullshit, I have heard libertarian drivel before, but your argument doesn't hold water. Any of the individual things, by themselves, would not make a strong case, but together they make a very strong evidenciary case that he was actually planning to do this. You talk to an anonymous women on the net and talk out a rape fantasy, that is one thing, you talk to an anomyous women on the net, find out where she lives, talk others about kidnapping and raping the women, researching how to get knockout drops, and you can argue til you are blue in the face that he was just fantasizing, but the problem here is we don't know, and neither do you, and when it comes to someone's safety, when there is a clear threat that he could very well be doing it, going on the side of absolute rights is likely going to get someone killed.

Put it this way, before 9/11, you think if someone got wind of the plot to take over the airplanes and such, if they got IM's and e-mail messages talking about it, they should sit back and say talking about it isn't a crime? That they were a bunch of hotheaded Saudis blowing off steam, and expressing a fantasy plot to make themselves feel better? Or do you arrest them before they can get any further? There is always a tension between rights and public safety, try yelling fire in a movie theater or on airplane joke with a stewardess you have a bomb, and watch where your rights go? "Oh, your honor, I was just joking, I love to kid around".......put it this way, if this was just a fantasy, he wouldn't have been researching the women's names and where they lived, the minute he did that he was no longer fantasizing, he might have been living in a fantasy world, but he was more then likely planning to act. The dumb shit lawyer for the ACLU who sits there and tells the family members that their loved ones were killed because of the rights of the perp isn't going to bring back the dead person, and all it does is make them look like they are, a bunch of ideological purists who can't see that harm plays a role, too.Arguing that some muslim cleric can exhort his followers to blow up bridges and kill people falls into the same pit, Lynne Stewart, who once upon a time was a decent rights lawyer, did it for that blind cleric who was responsible for the 93 hit on the WTC.

(in reply to Darkfeather)
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RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 9:44:29 PM   
Darkfeather


Posts: 1142
Joined: 3/13/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

You should all be reading all the articles on this case before you go defending "thoughts". If you keep a fantasy to yourself and never share it with anyone or ever, ever, do anything to make it reality, then fine. However in this case:

This sick fuck was planning to do this. He was planning to do this to his own WIFE, who found his plans.

He was conducting surveillance and breaking into databases.

He communicated with OTHER guys into this sick shit with the intent of having this come to fruition.

He need to be hospitalized in a a hospital for the criminally insane.




I am in no way defending the man or his actions. My point is they took out his choice in the matter. They stepped in well before he could decide whether or not he would go through it as you say. Up until they arrested him, he had not committed any real acts, they were all still fantasy. Still talked about, still watched in videos, still mused over in photos. Could this have ultimately been enough for him, we will never know now, because he never had that epiphany. He never came to that turning-point in the road. We are supposed to be a society where until you cross that line, until you take that choice to act like a criminal and not just think like one, you are supposed to be given the benefit of the doubt. He wasn't

(in reply to sexyred1)
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RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 9:45:31 PM   
Darkfeather


Posts: 1142
Joined: 3/13/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

No, they convicted a pervert who was overtly planning the deeds. Try to pay attention to the evidence.


Planning is NOT the same as doing. That is the evidence

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RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 9:48:03 PM   
njlauren


Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkfeather


quote:

ORIGINAL: MalcolmNathaniel


quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkfeather

... Everyone here is hell bent on convicting the man...


No need for us to convict him. That's what a jury of his peers did.



No, a jury of his peers convicted him of being a pervert

They convicted him of actually planning to carry out his perverted fantasies, that is the point. He went beyond thought to action, you can argue that him checking names and addresses was part of the fantasy, but the law is pretty clear, when it looks like those are actions in actually planning to carry out the crime, if a reasonable person based on what he actually did has feels that he was in the process of committing the crime, they can convict him of it. Happens all the time with evidence in cases, it comes down to the reasonable man idea. Ivory tower civil rights are all great and good, but other people have rights, too, primarily the right to not to have to fear loonies like this guy, who can't seem to distinguish fantasy from reality. The fact that a cop would risk his job illegally using resources like that tells a big story, to do so he would have to be pretty well motivated, I don't think a fantasy would hold. Reminds me of years ago this 4 wonderful denizens of NYC were caught on the subway with sharpened screwdrivers, and the defense lawyer said they hadn't committed any crimes, that they had the screwdrivers as 'tools', that they were illegally arrested because it is legal to carry tools..yeah, sharpened screwdrivers are just so civic minded, they were planning to fix the subway in case it broke down...

(in reply to Darkfeather)
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RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 9:51:54 PM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkfeather


quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

No, they convicted a pervert who was overtly planning the deeds. Try to pay attention to the evidence.


Planning is NOT the same as doing. That is the evidence


Well then, how about this for an idea? Let him decide to take the first step and kidnap, rape, torture and eat someone in YOUR family.

Then you can defend him as having the right to act it out. But of course, by then the fantasy may not have been as fun to do as to think about, but your female relative would be dead and eaten.

Sound good?

(in reply to Darkfeather)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 9:54:29 PM   
njlauren


Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkfeather


quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

No, they convicted a pervert who was overtly planning the deeds. Try to pay attention to the evidence.


Planning is NOT the same as doing. That is the evidence

Once again,planning to commit a crime is a crime in of itself, people have already cited it, it is called criminal conspiracy. Among other things, they can arrest people on this if the evidence they have could be considered by a reasonable person to be planning a crime. That is on the books, has been for a long time, and the person's actions can lead directly to this charge. THe chain of evidence in this case is this clown fantasizes about kidnapping women, raping them and then eating them,he talks about it with other people, and apparently, if I read the fact correctly, he even named specific women when chatting with the other losers, and then he took steps of actually finding out where these women lived and worked..that is preponderance of evidence showing he was actually planning it. You don't have to catch a criminal in the act.

Put it this way, if you make statements to people you want to kill your ex wife, you are found to have talked to someone potentially about putting a hit on her, and then you go and buy a gun, they can arrest you on conspiracy to commit murder, even though you haven't actually attempted it, because the evidence is there. Same with this guy, if he had just talked about it, maybe even talked about a specific person, then you would be correct, but his doing the research, trying to get together with them, after discussing apparently names with others, made it likely he was planning a criminal act, and they nailed him.

(in reply to Darkfeather)
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RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 10:01:06 PM   
KrazyJester


Posts: 34
Joined: 7/25/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkfeather
Basically, what he really did was contact a few women, talk to them over IM and emails, arrange to meet them. In the interim, he checked them out using official resources. The info in the emails and IMs were found to be of a kinky and fantasy related nature. It was this, coupled with his choices in websites, that resulted in his conviction. Not his abuse of power, not his conspiracy to kidnap, etc. All that is just fluff to mask the real objective. The truth is, he never, NEVER met any of those women. Never saw any of those women. Hell, he never even talked to any of them on the phone. He never followed then in his car, he never took pictures of them, etc. The above is the extent of the "conspiracy to kidnap" case against him. Everything, period


I'll post this again because you seem to be missing key details and jumping to conclusions. There where 3 male members that he was talking to on those sites that he was planning on indulging in the activities with, one being from the UK and the other being in New Jersey. None of the women he was looking at where consenting individuals.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KrazyJester

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/01/04/fbi-second-arrest-made-in-cannibal-cop-case/

And it wasn't just him talking to women and scheduling a hook up. There is a fine line between kink and instability, he crossed it when he looked up unsuspecting victims.


And NJlauren has it exactly right. police need 3 things, capability, opportunity, and intent. He expressed all 3.


And essentially under your logic, darkfeather, people that are in charge of planning a hit on someone, or planning a bank heist are not criminally responsible unless they are actually involved in the crime itself. Which frankly, is absurd.




< Message edited by KrazyJester -- 3/12/2013 10:17:41 PM >

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RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 10:09:16 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline 		He had brunch with one of the women on the list, met another for lunch, and talked on the phone to a couple of others. So where you get the idea he never spoke to or met any of them is a bit bizarre. Oh, and nearly every women on the list was someone he KNEW.

The idea that law enforcement should have waited until he *acted* on his *fantasies* would mean they waited until one of the hundreds of women on his list was murdered. That's ludicrous.

Oh, and how about his agreement with his co-conspirator (also facing charges) to kidnap someone for five grand? I guess we should have just waited until he broke her legs to fit her in the "large suitcase" he planned to transport her in.


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RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 10:29:25 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkfeather
Everyone seems to be missing the point here... Gilberto got Life imprisonment. Unless I missed something here, class A misdemeanor conviction does not, I repeat not, carry that severe a penalty. Hell, no court in this country would waste court resources to try a police officer on such a trivial matter on its own, which is why it was tacked on to the other offenses. If anyone here can find a simple reason why he warranted LIFE, What he actually did to deserve that level of punishment, then speak it now. Otherwise all he was actually convicted of was the simple fear of what he "could" have done
I didn't read the second link only the first.

Here's the quote: "Mr. Valle, 28, could receive life in prison for one count of kidnapping conspiracy when he is sentenced on June 19. The Police Department fired him upon conviction."

It wasn't the thoughts that were the crimes. It was the plotting to carry out the more serious crimes that were shown in evidence as the chat transcripts. As soon as the defendant included another person in the plans to engage in these acts, it's no longer considered fantasy. Conspiracy to commit felonies has been illegal in and of itself for some time.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkfeather
Planning is NOT the same as doing. That is the evidence
That one, I'll give you. Planning to carry out a crime is called conspiracy, which is still, in and of itself, a crime. That's probably why they didn't charge him with attempted murder because he didn't have the opportunity to execute the plan.





< Message edited by LadyPact -- 3/12/2013 10:34:17 PM >

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RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 10:32:33 PM   
Darkfeather


Posts: 1142
Joined: 3/13/2007
Status: offline 		Well, it seems that all of you know his mindset more than he did himself. So of course, join in with all the rest of those who vilified him, good lord. You know, it is a sad day when someone can with a straight face can say it is fine to convict a person purely on intent. Who on this planet can say with absolute honesty that they have never walked into a bank and thought, wow if only... Or jokingly said to a friend, I wish Bill was dead. Think back far enough and very few people in the span of their lifetimes can not string together what, capability, opportunity, and intent? Its all in how you present it isn't it. Intent is an easy thing to show because everyone has it at one time or another. And yes, I am of the opinion that you wait for guilt instead of convicting an innocent, even if it were directed at a member of my own family. Maybe because I have been on the receiving end of such accusations beforehand, that I can sympathize with someone who is tried and convicted without even doing said crime. For example, does a shady character, hovering around my 100k car, constitute a crime? No. does a shady character, looking in my said car's windows late at night constitute a crime? Hell no. But those here screaming for poor Gilberto's blood would have the person's head on a pike. Me, I would yes, wait until he actually, I don't know, committed a crime, until I said he was a criminal. Why, because I have been in that situation before, and wow, guess what, I was just looking for a stupid key that fell under the car, but wow, did the cop that came up on me have a pleasant attitude? To him, I was a black man standing next to a sports-car at night, you do the math...

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