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[Poll]

At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy become criminal?


When you merely think about the fantasy?
  16% (11)
When you do any act in favor of the fantasy?
  33% (23)
When you actually perform the fantasy?
  50% (34)


Total Votes : 68
(last vote on : 4/6/2013 3:17:30 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 3:00:12 PM   
Charles6682


Posts: 1820
Joined: 10/1/2007
From: Saint Pete,FL
Status: offline 		Crime prevention should be the main focus here.Not wait until "after the fact",when the damage is already done.As I said,life in prison may be a bit extreme here.He should be charged with illegally going through the database.That action right there does infringe on citizens privacy rights.So his actions did violate other peoples privacy rights.That right there is reason enough for punishment but no,not life in prison.But he should do some time for his crimes.

< Message edited by Charles6682 -- 3/12/2013 3:03:21 PM >

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RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 3:17:59 PM   
cordeliasub


Posts: 528
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quote:

Should they have waited until he did something more criminal, absolutely


I wonder if his victim would agree with this....I mean, waiting until after he acted.

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RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 3:25:51 PM   
Darkfeather


Posts: 1142
Joined: 3/13/2007
Status: offline 		When did this country become the place where innocent until proven guilty became, crime prevention?? As his defense attorney tried to point out over and over, all that he was guilty of was fantasizing, and yes perhaps pushing the boundaries on that a bit too far. But YES, we should absolutely wait until he actually acts on them. We should never become the society who convicts someone before they actually commits a crime, just because that crime may have serious ramifications. Why, because what happens if the person in question, oh I don't know, at the last minute decided NOT to do that crime. You know, human will, choice, etc. If you put that guy in jail before he committed that act, he did not get the chance to make the choice. You essentially made that for him. This, and this alone, is why watching him and waiting was warranted. Letting him make the choice himself.

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RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 3:31:55 PM   
KrazyJester


Posts: 34
Joined: 7/25/2011
Status: offline 		Not only that but acting on it and having his fellow cops overlooking something suspicious because of "professional courtesy" life in prison should be what he is sentenced. He held a position of authority and should answer for it.

And even if he was given the choice of backing out he is still was involved in the plot itself, which means he had intent to commit the crime.... Still punishable.

< Message edited by KrazyJester -- 3/12/2013 3:39:07 PM >

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RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 3:43:57 PM   
muhly22222


Posts: 463
Joined: 3/25/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkfeather

When did this country become the place where innocent until proven guilty became, crime prevention?? As his defense attorney tried to point out over and over, all that he was guilty of was fantasizing, and yes perhaps pushing the boundaries on that a bit too far. But YES, we should absolutely wait until he actually acts on them. We should never become the society who convicts someone before they actually commits a crime, just because that crime may have serious ramifications. Why, because what happens if the person in question, oh I don't know, at the last minute decided NOT to do that crime. You know, human will, choice, etc. If you put that guy in jail before he committed that act, he did not get the chance to make the choice. You essentially made that for him. This, and this alone, is why watching him and waiting was warranted. Letting him make the choice himself.


If I was his defense attorney, I would make the same arguments. They're the best ones out there, and really, the appeal will be an interesting one from a legal standpoint. I imagine they're going to challenge the definition of conspiracy as applied to his case, and the exact facts of his case make that particular issue intriguing.

But you're missing the point...he did commit a crime. He committed the crime of conspiracy to kidnap. Kidnapping is one crime, conspiracy to do so is a separate crime. The crime of conspiracy to kidnap requires that he and at least one other person make plans to commit an illegal act, and that they take an overt action in furtherance of that illegal act. The overt action can be one that would generally be considered legal (such as buying the rope that he may have planned to tie up his victims with), or it can be illegal (such as accessing a police database).

The defense challenged the requirement that he have planned anything, and the jury didn't buy it.

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RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 3:45:20 PM   
ARIES83


Posts: 3648
Status: offline 		I didn't see the life imprisonment part, that does
seem very excessive.

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RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 3:47:17 PM   
Darkfeather


Posts: 1142
Joined: 3/13/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KrazyJester

Not only that but acting on it and having his fellow cops overlooking something suspicious because of "professional courtesy" life in prison should be what he is sentenced. He held a position of authority and should answer for it.

And even if he was given the choice of backing out he is still was involved in the plot itself, which means he had intent to commit the crime.... Still punishable.


Are you really serious?? Do you actually believe this??? Wow, just, wow...

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 3:54:56 PM   
Darkfeather


Posts: 1142
Joined: 3/13/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: muhly22222


quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkfeather

When did this country become the place where innocent until proven guilty became, crime prevention?? As his defense attorney tried to point out over and over, all that he was guilty of was fantasizing, and yes perhaps pushing the boundaries on that a bit too far. But YES, we should absolutely wait until he actually acts on them. We should never become the society who convicts someone before they actually commits a crime, just because that crime may have serious ramifications. Why, because what happens if the person in question, oh I don't know, at the last minute decided NOT to do that crime. You know, human will, choice, etc. If you put that guy in jail before he committed that act, he did not get the chance to make the choice. You essentially made that for him. This, and this alone, is why watching him and waiting was warranted. Letting him make the choice himself.


If I was his defense attorney, I would make the same arguments. They're the best ones out there, and really, the appeal will be an interesting one from a legal standpoint. I imagine they're going to challenge the definition of conspiracy as applied to his case, and the exact facts of his case make that particular issue intriguing.

But you're missing the point...he did commit a crime. He committed the crime of conspiracy to kidnap. Kidnapping is one crime, conspiracy to do so is a separate crime. The crime of conspiracy to kidnap requires that he and at least one other person make plans to commit an illegal act, and that they take an overt action in furtherance of that illegal act. The overt action can be one that would generally be considered legal (such as buying the rope that he may have planned to tie up his victims with), or it can be illegal (such as accessing a police database).

The defense challenged the requirement that he have planned anything, and the jury didn't buy it.


He committed at best, misdemeanors. Punishable by what, a few years in jail. No D.A. in the country would have brought those charges to the grand jury, let alone court, lest waste tax payer money one that. Conspiracy to kidnap?? Do you know what that was, he chatted with females over the internet and had planned to meet with them, that's it. Planned to meet at some future date with females he only knew over the internet, that was the conspiracy. The fact that he may or may not have committed crimes are trivial technicalities, which on their own would be laughed out of any court in the land. The only reason he was "convicted" of the crime, and sentenced to life, was the fact that his jury was subjected to the websites he visited. Cannibal websites. They were showed images of graphic, bloody images that he viewed. These, even at the objection of his attorney, so prejudiced them against him, that they convicted him simply on his kink.

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RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 4:04:52 PM   
KrazyJester


Posts: 34
Joined: 7/25/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkfeather


quote:

ORIGINAL: KrazyJester

Not only that but acting on it and having his fellow cops overlooking something suspicious because of "professional courtesy" life in prison should be what he is sentenced. He held a position of authority and should answer for it.

And even if he was given the choice of backing out he is still was involved in the plot itself, which means he had intent to commit the crime.... Still punishable.


Are you really serious?? Do you actually believe this??? Wow, just, wow...


Yes I do, let's put it this way. Say you came across a person that you have known for a short time. In passing you notice something that they wrote that says they want to kidnap you and potentially murder you or a relative or friend...... Your saying that you wouldn't do anything about it. Until its too late. Your stating that you want that person on the streets free to roam around and potentially harm someone else. There is billions of people in this world and only so few that are willing to do a job to prevent such action. To stop something like it from happening saves people before they have a chance to commit said action. Weather they went through with the crime or not they still acted on it with intent to commit it.

(in reply to Darkfeather)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 4:14:44 PM   
KrazyJester


Posts: 34
Joined: 7/25/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83

I didn't see the life imprisonment part, that does
seem very excessive.


Where does it say he was sentenced to life in prison? The article only states that he COULD BE sentenced to life in prison which by that is the max sentence he can receive under state statutes for conspiracy.

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RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 4:29:54 PM   
ARIES83


Posts: 3648
Status: offline 		That might be why I didn't see it haha, I just
assumed darkfeather knew more about it than
me and there are quite a few mentions of life
imprisonment capitalised, underlined or
otherwise emphasized back there.

I'll level with you guys, I've only skimmed
everything, this is bordering on P&R type stuff
and it's hard for me to pay attention.

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RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 4:52:04 PM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkfeather

You all do know that actions, no matter how far into the real world, as long as they do not harm a person or infringe on their personal rights, are not illegal.


Wrong. Victimless crimes include prostitution and illegal drug use.

I believe you're thinking of civil cases, where a party must show they've been harmed in order to sue.

This is a criminal case, in which evidence of harm to another is not required.

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RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 5:00:15 PM   
egern


Posts: 537
Joined: 1/11/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cilicia

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/13/nyregion/gilberto-valle-is-found-guilty-in-cannibal-case.html

The guy was convicted even though he never performed the fantasy, yet, he "acted upon" them, meaning he looked up potential victims.

I'm curious:
At what point does fantasy become criminal?


An important question. At the point when you can prove that it is an actual plan.

If you catch a terrorist with a plan over an embassy, with loads of explosives, and a list of co-workers, I do not think you can wait and hope to catch tem at it.

A stalker threthening to kill somone?

But you cannot convict someone for what they think.

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RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 5:01:02 PM   
Moonlightmaddnes


Posts: 958
Joined: 6/4/2012
Status: offline 		So he never acted on any of this yet was convicted? The thing that appalls me about this, is how many have gone to the police over weird stalkers threatening them, or ex's threatening to kill over the other leaving and the police say well they have not done anything. I have a friend that has an ex like that and sadly they have a kid together so she had to deal with him. The police have never done anything because he never acts on his threats. I am having trouble figuring out how they made a case out of a fantasy he had. I wonder if they had enough evidence of a plan he had in place, like when police arrest a person for planning to kill someone.

< Message edited by Moonlightmaddnes -- 3/12/2013 5:02:29 PM >

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RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 5:02:36 PM   
KrazyJester


Posts: 34
Joined: 7/25/2011
Status: offline 		http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/01/04/fbi-second-arrest-made-in-cannibal-cop-case/

And it wasn't just him talking to women and scheduling a hook up. There is a fine line between kink and instability, he crossed it when he looked up unsuspecting victims.

< Message edited by KrazyJester -- 3/12/2013 5:04:08 PM >

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RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 5:11:35 PM   
egern


Posts: 537
Joined: 1/11/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkfeather
If you put that guy in jail before he committed that act, he did not get the chance to make the choice. You essentially made that for him. This, and this alone, is why watching him and waiting was warranted. Letting him make the choice himself.


I do see where you come from. But the potential victim has no choice.


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RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 6:43:23 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		It’s about time we stop coddling the criminally mentally ill and start holding people responsible for their actions and thoughts. To me the only mentally ill that get a bye are those that think they are defending themselves from extreme danger and lash out. This asshole may be nuts but he is still an asshole and a criminal and deserves to be in prison.

If it were up to me he would serve his sentence and even then not get out until he was judged competent and sane by a board of physiatrists.

Butch

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RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 7:08:16 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cilicia


At what point does fantasy become criminal?


I figure, about the time my ass is sitting in prison, it's probably become criminal.

Until then.......it's all fun and games.


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RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 7:09:11 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
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Status: offline 		When they arrest you.

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RE: At what point does deviant sexual mental fantasy be... - 3/12/2013 7:18:25 PM   
MalcolmNathaniel


Posts: 1394
Joined: 9/20/2010
Status: offline 		Let's take the cannibalism fantasy out of this. Let's take the "he's a cop" bit out too.

Let's say that it was to kidnap for ransom with a co-conspirator.

He did surveillance, he illegally accessed databases, he planned trips.

That alone makes him guilty of conspiracy to kidnap. That can carry a life sentence - no kinky fantasies included.

You don't wait until someone pointing a gun pulls the trigger to shoot back, nor do you wait until someone has actually kidnapped someone to arrest them.

(in reply to Darkfeather)
Profile   Post #: 40
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