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[Poll]

How many of you are:

Pro Gun, pro capital punishment, anti abortion

24% (13)

Anti gun, anti abortion, anti capital punishment

5% (3)

Pro gun, pro abortion, pro capital punishment

39% (21)

Pro gun, anti capital punishment, pro abortion

18% (10)

Anti gun, pro abortion, anti capital punishment

11% (6)

Total Votes : 53

(last vote on : 3/26/2013 4:57:38 AM)
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RE: How many of you are: - 3/21/2013 4:11:57 PM

stef

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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Not because he's a Brit, but because a lot of people outside the US are able to think outside-of-the-box.

Any many of those people who are so sure they're outside-the-box thinkers, are really just stuck in a different box. Funny how often that seems to happen here.

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Post #: 61

RE: How many of you are: - 3/21/2013 5:48:16 PM

jlf1961

Posts: 14840
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

That's still more than half, even if that figure hasn't been invented, fiddled or otherwise contrived.

Again: if abortion should be banned because a minority of women use it as a form of birth control, then gun possession should be banned because a minority of gun owners use their guns for spree killings.
How do the two histrionic examples of crazed moralism differ, except that you agree with one but see the other as a personal insult?

Gee that seems to be everyone's argument concerning gun bans, so why is it different?

Because you don't find it incongrous that you have no problem with the idea of all women being banned an abortion because of a minority abusing that right, but find the application of the same logic to your right to own a gun offensive.
If you don't have any problem with the former, you have no business objecting to the latter.

Actually, unless you are a mind reader and have tuned into my brain, you really dont have a clue as to what I think. For the record, yes it is not the most reasonable argument against abortion, nor is it the most reasonable argument against gun control.

However, lets look at this number, in the US there are approximately 2 million infertile couples looking to adopt, and approximately 1.2 million abortions a year in the US.

Yes there are a number of health risks associated with carrying a baby to term. All though the risks are less, there are still risks associated with abortion. Now for all the women out there that scream "abortion was my only option" which I have heard many times, tells me that it was the only expedient option.

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Post #: 62

RE: How many of you are: - 3/21/2013 5:57:33 PM

Moonhead

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Ah. So I can't read your mind, but you can read the mind of every woman who claims that abortion was her best option well enough to know that they're lying?

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(in reply to jlf1961)

Post #: 63

RE: How many of you are: - 3/21/2013 6:14:10 PM

jlf1961

Posts: 14840
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From: Somewhere Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Ah. So I can't read your mind, but you can read the mind of every woman who claims that abortion was her best option well enough to know that they're lying?

Alright, please explain how abortion is the best option except when there is a risk to the mother, or in the case of incest or rape.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 64

RE: How many of you are: - 3/22/2013 2:35:32 AM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Ah. So I can't read your mind, but you can read the mind of every woman who claims that abortion was her best option well enough to know that they're lying?

Alright, please explain how abortion is the best option except when there is a risk to the mother, or in the case of incest or rape.

When her usual birth control fails, which can and does happen.
When the fetus is discovered to have lethal or severe birth defects.
When her personal circumstances changes during the pregnancy, i.e. her partner leaves or dies or she loses her job or something else occurs that changes her ability to care for a child.

(in reply to jlf1961)

Post #: 65

RE: How many of you are: - 3/22/2013 4:34:10 AM

jlf1961

Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Ah. So I can't read your mind, but you can read the mind of every woman who claims that abortion was her best option well enough to know that they're lying?

Alright, please explain how abortion is the best option except when there is a risk to the mother, or in the case of incest or rape.

When her usual birth control fails, which can and does happen.
When the fetus is discovered to have lethal or severe birth defects.
When her personal circumstances changes during the pregnancy, i.e. her partner leaves or dies or she loses her job or something else occurs that changes her ability to care for a child.

With the exception of the one I put in bold, why is the option of putting the baby up for adoption a bad option?

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 66

RE: How many of you are: - 3/22/2013 4:47:27 AM

Lucylastic

Posts: 40310
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you would like to reduce a woman being unwantedly pregnant to a mere incubator for someone else?

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Post #: 67

RE: How many of you are: - 3/22/2013 4:56:46 AM

searching4mysir

Posts: 2757
Joined: 6/16/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

you would like to reduce a woman being unwantedly pregnant to a mere incubator for someone else?

Inconvenience is a good excuse for killing another human being? Can she kill her born children too if she loses her job?

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Post #: 68

RE: How many of you are: - 3/22/2013 5:03:48 AM

Lucylastic

Posts: 40310
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Dont be idiotic

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Post #: 69

RE: How many of you are: - 3/22/2013 5:04:41 AM

jlf1961

Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

you would like to reduce a woman being unwantedly pregnant to a mere incubator for someone else?

So it is better to kill a baby than to give a childless couple a chance at being parents?

What I am saying is that I have heard women say "Abortion was my only option."

Potential adoptive parents are often willing to cover the entire expense of the pregnancy, and then some. Adoption lawyers set those plans up all the time in private adoptions.

Even when you consider the older children up for adoption, there are still two million childless couples on average in the US every year that want to adopt.

There is a viable alternative to abortion. The problem is with the "instant gratification" or expediency of getting an abortion, the problem disappears in one afternoon at a clinic, rather than giving the child a chance at a life with parents that actually want the child.

I took enough lives when I was in the army, so now I have a new perspective on life.

But what the fuck do I know, I am only a former dumb grunt.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to Lucylastic)

Post #: 70

RE: How many of you are: - 3/22/2013 5:10:06 AM

freedomdwarf1

Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: searching4mysir

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
you would like to reduce a woman being unwantedly pregnant to a mere incubator for someone else?

Inconvenience is a good excuse for killing another human being? Can she kill her born children too if she loses her job?

Nope.

But for a lot of people (obviously not you or like-minded others), a fetus prior to viability is not 'life' per se.
It cannot live until old enough and beyond that stage.
So it's just a case of removing the protective environment - not 'killing another human being'.
Born children are alive and viable - a pre-viable fetus isn't.
That's a whole different ball of wax.

(in reply to searching4mysir)

Post #: 71

RE: How many of you are: - 3/22/2013 5:20:47 AM

Moonhead

Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
There is a viable alternative to abortion. The problem is with the "instant gratification" or expediency of getting an abortion, the problem disappears in one afternoon at a clinic, rather than giving the child a chance at a life with parents that actually want the child.

Actually, they want a baby: many of these wannabe parents who are so desperate to adopt turn their nose up a kid that's old enough to have been toilet trained. Given that there's orphanages full of kids who rarely get adopted, I don't find the notion that the kids should be raised to term and then passed on for adoption very sympathetic, frankly. If they won't settle for what's available, they can shut up bleating about how one of these dirty slags who can't keep their legs together could have a kid for them instead of aborting it.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
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(in reply to jlf1961)

Post #: 72

RE: How many of you are: - 3/22/2013 5:22:38 AM

Lucylastic

Posts: 40310
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And you dont know what led to that "only option" decision, we can reduce it, guess and pooh pooh it all we like. we can make dumbarse assumptions all we like, We are not in her position, her mental,financial or health situation, we have no right to force her to be a breeding machine simply because she got caught. WHy are there so many kids waiting for adoption??
And guess what...you STILL have no right to decide what is right and wrong for any woman, that is between her and her doctor.
"The problem is with the "instant gratification" or expediency of getting an abortion, the problem disappears in one afternoon at a clinic,"</snip>
is just bullshit and deep denial about what it actually means to many many women who do have abortions

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(in reply to jlf1961)

Post #: 73

RE: How many of you are: - 3/22/2013 5:24:37 AM

Phoenixpower

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
I took enough lives when I was in the army, so now I have a new perspective on life.

But what the fuck do I know, I am only a former dumb grunt.

I do not think you are "only a former dumb grunt" but I do think you underestimate how much it can affect a womans life when she is pregnant and on top of it if her world falls apart in a way as badly as she never expected it would be possible...

I have been heavily against abortion but when I have been pregnant and many things went down the hills I was glad (and still am!) that I had the option to do so...to be able to do so I actually went abroad, as it has been a tad bit too late in my own country...and was at risk of dying during that operation, as I have been told afterwards...which IMO showed me the inner conflict I had with at one side not wanting it to happen but at the other side - at that time - not seeing another option...

A friend of mine who wanted kids badly (meanwhile she has twins but she struggled a lot to get pregnant) was shocked that I went down that way as she knew that this is so not me and also due to the fact that she wanted kids badly....

Now, after she spoke to her mum about it, her mum shared her experiences with her and told her, that if she would not have had as supportive parents as she had, when she was pregnant with her (she was 17 or 18 when she got her), she might have committed suicide in that time....

That doesn't mean, that she necessarily would have done that....but remove that right from a woman, when she is not able to go abroad for that option, that's another option that she might go down that route....as quite frankly, many women get more sensitive when they are pregnant (at least I did and I know others who did), so to mess up with the state they are in during that time, is just not a healthy option either...

Also during my studies I read articles which claimed that when a mother-to-be is overly stressed during the first 3 months, there would be an increased risk of that unborn baby to develop mental health problems later in life (of course it does not mean it will happen, but according to those articles it seems that the risk increases in regards to that) so IMO letting mothers-to-be bring kids into the world they struggle to cope with, is not necessarily the best option....as it can affect mentally the mother and the baby afterwards, after all, already mothers who want to be mums can suffer from post natal depression...

So I am certainly Pro Choice and would not want to bring my kid to the world, just because any insane state things "I have to."

I think that would certainly be a situation I would happily avoid men for sure

< Message edited by Phoenixpower -- 3/22/2013 5:25:11 AM >

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Post #: 74

RE: How many of you are: - 3/22/2013 5:24:42 AM

jlf1961

Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: searching4mysir

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
you would like to reduce a woman being unwantedly pregnant to a mere incubator for someone else?

Inconvenience is a good excuse for killing another human being? Can she kill her born children too if she loses her job?

Nope.

But for a lot of people (obviously not you or like-minded others), a fetus prior to viability is not 'life' per se.
It cannot live until old enough and beyond that stage.
So it's just a case of removing the protective environment - not 'killing another human being'.
Born children are alive and viable - a pre-viable fetus isn't.
That's a whole different ball of wax.

Viability, good point.

People with severe heart disease are barely viable, so lets stop treating them, or better yet euthanize them. Same with terminal cancer patients. Regardless of age.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)

Post #: 75

RE: How many of you are: - 3/22/2013 5:27:03 AM

freedomdwarf1

Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
you would like to reduce a woman being unwantedly pregnant to a mere incubator for someone else?

So it is better to kill a baby than to give a childless couple a chance at being parents?

What I am saying is that I have heard women say "Abortion was my only option."

Potential adoptive parents are often willing to cover the entire expense of the pregnancy, and then some. Adoption lawyers set those plans up all the time in private adoptions.

Even when you consider the older children up for adoption, there are still two million childless couples on average in the US every year that want to adopt.

There is a viable alternative to abortion. The problem is with the "instant gratification" or expediency of getting an abortion, the problem disappears in one afternoon at a clinic, rather than giving the child a chance at a life with parents that actually want the child.

I took enough lives when I was in the army, so now I have a new perspective on life.

But what the fuck do I know, I am only a former dumb grunt.

Unfortunately jeff, the mother/parents of the unborn is wanting one of their own at the time otherwise they would have gone straight to an adoption agency in the first place.

And of course, that presumes that the potential mother would be acceptable as an adoptive parent.
Many potential parent(s) are refused - sometimes for the most ludicrous of reasons.

In this day and age, quite often the circumstances change quite radically in a short space of time.
If the mother/parents decide that they can no longer care for the child properly prior to viability, I fail to see why the mother should be forced to carry to full-term. Even more so if the risk to either child or mother could become life-threatening or the child could carry some awful debilitating condition.
Perhaps you haven't considered that fact that an abortion would be one less child in the already overcrowded foster/care homes which don't have enough adoptive parents.

I have been in this position earlier in my life.
When she got pregnant, we were over the moon.
In the space of 3 weeks we found ourselves living on the streets with no money and no way to care for a young child.
We agonised for weeks before we/she took the decision to have an abortion and I can tell you it was heart-wrenching for both of us. There was no sensible way she could have carried to term - it just wasn't possible given the circumstances.

Women should have the right to choose; not have society force them one way or the other.

The fact that you took viable and proper lives when in service is irrelevant to the argument.

Just my

< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 3/22/2013 5:31:51 AM >

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Post #: 76

RE: How many of you are: - 3/22/2013 5:35:33 AM

Lynnxz

Posts: 4813
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Atlanta
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Viability, good point.

People with severe heart disease are barely viable, so lets stop treating them, or better yet euthanize them. Same with terminal cancer patients. Regardless of age.

Actually, I am a very, very stong promoter of hospice services with end stage terminal cancers. Withdraw aggressive treatments, initiate comfort care.

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Post #: 77

RE: How many of you are: - 3/22/2013 5:45:05 AM

jlf1961

Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
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Alright maybe I am reading the wrong reports, and no I am not getting my information from pro life sites, since I dont believe in the tactics they use to try and keep people from even looking into abortion.

Legal abortion is the law of the land.

But from what I have read, many women ( I dont use the term "most women") get an abortion because for what ever reason, it is inconvenient to have a child, thus it is an unwanted pregnancy.

Yes, I know that birth control is not 100% effective.

I will admit that there are valid reasons why an abortion is wanted, even if I do not agree with abortion.

The problem I have with abortion is the 48% of women who have had more than one abortion.

According to statistics, 52% of women who get an abortion, get one and only one. I can accept that, even if I cant agree with it.

One abortion may be the "only viable option" but two? or more?

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)

Post #: 78

RE: How many of you are: - 3/22/2013 6:01:28 AM

Lucylastic

Posts: 40310
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In my 30 odd years of fertility .... my life has been all over the place.
Ive never had an abortion, but ive certainly been in places where had I been pregnant at the time, it would have been an option, for various reasons. My first pregnancy was at 18, my last one was at 30, both of them ended in a bad way. With EVERY pregnancy I was in a different place ...different emotional, financial and health directions. I dont agree with abortion as birth control, but two yes, I can understand it.
There arent many women who just have abortions and women who just have babies, these are often the same women at different points in their lives.

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\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
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(in reply to jlf1961)

Post #: 79

RE: How many of you are: - 3/22/2013 6:03:46 AM

freedomdwarf1

Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Alright maybe I am reading the wrong reports, and no I am not getting my information from pro life sites, since I dont believe in the tactics they use to try and keep people from even looking into abortion.

Legal abortion is the law of the land.

But from what I have read, many women ( I dont use the term "most women") get an abortion because for what ever reason, it is inconvenient to have a child, thus it is an unwanted pregnancy.

Yes, I know that birth control is not 100% effective.

I will admit that there are valid reasons why an abortion is wanted, even if I do not agree with abortion.

The problem I have with abortion is the 48% of women who have had more than one abortion.

According to statistics, 52% of women who get an abortion, get one and only one. I can accept that, even if I cant agree with it.

One abortion may be the "only viable option" but two? or more?

I agree with the sentiments of no abortions if it's just for convenience - that's shameful.

But lets look at the other side of the coin shall we??
What about all those girls/women that can't keep their legs shut, fuck anything with a penis, and drop sprogs all over the place to force the authorities to give them social housing ahead of legitimate needy families?
I dunno about the US but it happens a lot over here and it's fucking infuriating!!
Being told you have to wait 7 FUCKING YEARS before you are likely to be considered for housing sorta sticks in the craw a bit - all because of sluts and immigrants with a football team of children!!

(in reply to jlf1961)

Post #: 80

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