RE: home birth in chains

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njlauren -> RE: home birth in chains (3/25/2013 8:48:03 PM)
I find what the person wrote to be bullshit as well, I have experienced the joys of CPS, and they do run down every complaint, and if they had a report that the mother was going around in chains, they would investigate, and I don't live in the bible belt. With CPS, or as they call it here, DYFS, in effect they go in there assuming guilt, and you have to prove you are innocent. The caseworker we dealt with saw pretty quickly that the report was misguided at the very least, she saw our house, all the toys all over the place, the art projects, and so forth, saw the kid, didn't see any bruises or marks, didn't see any signs he was scared or frightened, and pretty much told my sweetie right then and there it was a crap call, but she still had to go through the motions, still had to interview myself and others, and it had to go through a process. I can understand it, when it comes to kids we should be cautious, but in the face of that, saying CPS or whatever won't do anything is a very, very suspicious thing to say, you don't know. In the real world, if they see the kid is healthy and happy, not abused, they would say "have a nice day", but it doesn't work like that..... There is a point to what the poster said, not that anyone has studied BD/SM, but that we think kids are more fragile then they are, or we think of irreparable damage when there likely won't be.....kids have had to deal with a parent coming out as gay, a parent transitioning, a lot of things people assume will 'hurt them', and it doesn't necessarily. That said, I think with mom going around wearing chains, that while I suspect it may not cause the kids any harm, but without any kind of backing from someone who knows more, I would be loathe to experiment with it, even if I otherwise thought they would be okay. Would the daughter grow up thinking woman should be chained up? Not sure, I think it would depend on how the parents presented it to her and just how the chains appeared (and again, talking only for myself). I think it would be pretty inappropriate, especially with younger kids, to tell them mommy is owned by daddy and those are her way of knowing she is owned....on the other hand, if the chains are relatively inconspicuous (ie mommy isn't dragging a ball in chain), if they show but aren't a big deal, and the mom tells the kids it has special meaning to her, that not everyone does this, but for her it has meaning and it is for her alone, it may not be a big deal. I won't have to deal with this, given my stage of life, but if I were in her position I would work with a kink aware therapist just to see a good way to handle it, to make sure I could do it without impacting them too much. I went through that when I was in transition, and there are automatic assumptions about an M to F trans parent with a male child, but what I figured out is there were ways to handle it without fucking him up, might be same thing with mom wanting to wear chains, but I would talk to someone professional about it, just to be safe. Again, in terms of the childbirth, as someone with some background in delivering babies, I would strongly encourage the mom to be not to do that, but if the midwife was okay with it, felt it wouldn't interfere, but if it was me I also would have all contingencies covered, like making sure I could get them the hell out of the way if need be.

Baroana -> RE: home birth in chains (3/26/2013 5:33:40 AM)
My point was that the results of such a study would probably be undetectable. Moreover, common sense dictates that children should not be exposed to bdsm. I don't think we need to study to tell us that, and I don't think we need to damage any kids in order to find that out scientifically.

Baroana -> RE: home birth in chains (3/26/2013 9:31:15 AM)
..... unless, of course, one's goal is to perpetuate sexism by indoctrinating the next generation. Honestly, I get the impression sometimes that many people here are sort of ok with that. I am speaking to both men and women.

OsideGirl -> RE: home birth in chains (3/26/2013 10:17:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: As a general warning to those that would notify CPS on the drop of a hat, again anything can be mentioned to CPS by a lay person (only certain things are reportable by mandatory reports, i.e. doctors, teachers who are trained to know when to report and when not to) but use caution on embellishing the facts you want to report. If you knowingly make a false statement that results in a CPS investigation and later it is determined that parts of the original report were fabricated, the reporting person can be charge with a class C felony in my state. I have seen it happen. Charging a person that makes a false report was designed as a deterrent in family custody situations where accusations abound. I dont see how making a report that a mother is in chains in the home around her children would be viewed as a "false report" I agree. And CPS is required to check out every complaint made. A child can be removed from a home if that home life is considered an unhealthy environment. It doesn't have to be direct child abuse. Remember the kids named Adolf Hilter and Aryan Nation? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/31/adolf-hitler-campbell-custody-battle-nazi-names-new-jersey_n_1561046.html The first time a child seriously hurts themselves and the mother gets hung up because of the chains, there will be issues. And regardless of whether she can do yoga in those chains, the fact remains that the chains are easy to snag. It's the same reason they don't recommend staking your dog on a chain in the yard.

Duskypearls -> RE: home birth in chains (3/26/2013 12:36:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OsideGirl quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: As a general warning to those that would notify CPS on the drop of a hat, again anything can be mentioned to CPS by a lay person (only certain things are reportable by mandatory reports, i.e. doctors, teachers who are trained to know when to report and when not to) but use caution on embellishing the facts you want to report. If you knowingly make a false statement that results in a CPS investigation and later it is determined that parts of the original report were fabricated, the reporting person can be charge with a class C felony in my state. I have seen it happen. Charging a person that makes a false report was designed as a deterrent in family custody situations where accusations abound. I dont see how making a report that a mother is in chains in the home around her children would be viewed as a "false report" I agree. And CPS is required to check out every complaint made. A child can be removed from a home if that home life is considered an unhealthy environment. It doesn't have to be direct child abuse. Remember the kids named Adolf Hilter and Aryan Nation? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/31/adolf-hitler-campbell-custody-battle-nazi-names-new-jersey_n_1561046.html The first time a child seriously hurts themselves and the mother gets hung up because of the chains, there will be issues. And regardless of whether she can do yoga in those chains, the fact remains that the chains are easy to snag. It's the same reason they don't recommend staking your dog on a chain in the yard. Good points, Oside, especially about the dog. I've seen more than one dog that strangled itself to a long, slow, painful death because those suckers kink. The more the dog panics and attempts to get away, the more it kinks and the shorter it gets. Have seen them dead, hanging from them, on the tippy toes of their hind feet. Nasty way to go.

NiceButMeanGirl -> RE: home birth in chains (3/26/2013 8:06:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady So your wife is walking around in chains around your children? Really? I find that to be completely inappropriate. ETA: Unlike Oside, I don't choose to keep my comments of disgust to myself on this. I totally agree with this. ^^^^ Exposing people - yes children are people too - nonconsensually - they are under the age of consent - to your kink is uncool. AND I'm sure your local Child Protection Agency would not approve, were they to find out. quote: ORIGINAL: Arturas quote: It's quite sad that you can't see the difference between wearing ankle shackles and sex. I think I understand. You wear ankle shackles instead of having sex because you see them as the same and they don't require a partner. I've never thought of ankle shackles as masturbation before. NBMG

SacredDepravity -> RE: home birth in chains (3/27/2013 12:41:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: aurelianus I have been watching this thread for several days and wanted to comment. My credentials include an advance degree and training in matters dealing with children and I work closely with CPS. First, from a psychological standpoint, there is no evidence in the literature that a baby, when older, will have any lasting detrimental issues with knowing that his/her mother wore shackles during labor and delivery. Usually, many children do not even know the circumstances of the birth until much closer to adulthood if at all (I know I have never asked my mother about my birth other than it was natural and in the hospital). Secondly, wearing chains occasionally around children is considered a minor deviance from social norms and has been shown many times to not adversely affect the child. That is not to say that you will find an study in the literature that deals specifically with children being exposed to their mother wearing light bondage around the house. It is only that minor differences in social norms has no affect on children and they grow up healthy and normal when compared to their peers. The bottom line is that children are not as delicate as many profess on this thread and a loving supportive environment in the absence of abuse will produce well adjusted children. Lastly, though anything can be reported to CPS. CPS, in my state, would not investigate based on the report that "there is a mother that wears chains in front of her children." The basis of a CPS investigation would be reported physical/sexual abuse, neglect (malnutrition) including medical neglect, child endangerment (leaving your child in a locked car while the parent shops, living in a house with a meth lab). There are other broad sections that would prompt at CPS investigation but these are the only areas that the current situation by the OP would fall under. As a general warning to those that would notify CPS on the drop of a hat, again anything can be mentioned to CPS by a lay person (only certain things are reportable by mandatory reports, i.e. doctors, teachers who are trained to know when to report and when not to) but use caution on embellishing the facts you want to report. If you knowingly make a false statement that results in a CPS investigation and later it is determined that parts of the original report were fabricated, the reporting person can be charge with a class C felony in my state. I have seen it happen. Charging a person that makes a false report was designed as a deterrent in family custody situations where accusations abound. It's not child endangerment when a child suffers repeated minor or even ONE serious because a parent intentionally inhibited her ability to respond to any degree? And I am certain that there would not even be an adult welfare check conducted if a little darling said, "Daddy chains up Mommy at home." That's a load of crap. Other people have background, both personal and professional, with this. Please don't insult our intelligence. And if reporting that a child said one of their parents is chained up is a "false report", then I don't know what a true report would be. And accusing people of frivolously or falsely reporting is insulting. I have been falsely and frivolously reported. I would never harm a family that way. It's bad enough reporting by mandatory reporters is down to a blanket policy with no thought or common sense required. It's damn hard to both raise good kids and steer clear of CPS these days. I'd rather give up some of my "rights" and stay away from any run in with CPS than risk disturbance of my family and possibly facing criminal charges. That's just me though, I guess. SD

littlewonder -> RE: home birth in chains (3/27/2013 2:59:46 PM)
I keep wondering if any of the children have said to them "Mommy, I want to wear some too!".

ScarlettSlut -> RE: home birth in chains (4/5/2013 4:24:04 PM)
WOW!! This post was certainly an eye opener!! I have to say I think this Is a stupid notion. If you are so self involved that you wish to have your wife shackled to a bed during child birth "to feel her submission" then may I suggest that you should not have had children. I have one child he is 3, very much at the age where he knows everything. He has watched me change the batteries in his nightlight with a screw driver, and the nest time it broke, some 3-4weeks later he got his own screwdriver (plastic one btw) and tried to change the batteries himself, having witnessed me do it once. They see and take in a lot more than we realise as parents, its how they learn. I choose to have him, and with the choice my personal wants came second best, my son is in bed, and it is made sure he is asleep before anything happens in my house. In short your sex toys and BDSM equipment should be kept out of reach from your children's hands and defiantly out of the sight.

desertratmike -> RE: home birth in chains (4/15/2013 4:05:43 PM)
Wow, that is one of the most interesting posts i have read on here since i came on to this site.To the OP,honestly i don't care how much research you have done on the internet regarding this subject there is always the one instance where things sometimes do go horribly wrong, i know as a father i would NEVER put my wife and child at risk for anything like that nor would i let her do something like that.Any midwife who would sign off on a birth like that should be questioned and in my opinion replaced. My personal opinion is mine, however i really hope you decide to go against this. I know we all have our own ways of expressing what our dynamic is with our partner and i will never judge what a couple does in their own home,but there are safety considerations that should be taken into account as have been posted in this thread by other members. I have lost count of how many times over the years that my wife or myself have had to make the mad dash to pull one of our children back from something or take care of them when they have managed to do harm to themselves. The 30-40% of the time she is in chains can be the ONE time where she would have to move fast to rescue the child from something harmful, and god forbid something does happen then social services sticks their heads into your " private life" and then it is all out in the open. I have known people who have lost their children due to situations like this where something happens or the kids mention something that goes on in the house to the wrong person who feels it is in the best interest of the child to pick up the phone and call CPS. I do wish you and your wife all the best in the birth of your new child though, it is one of the greatest moments I have ever experienced in my life and should be kept as a family thing, not a show of submission.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: home birth in chains (4/15/2013 4:14:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: desertratmike I have lost count of how many times over the years that my wife or myself have had to make the mad dash to pull one of our children back from something or take care of them when they have managed to do harm to themselves. The 30-40% of the time she is in chains can be the ONE time where she would have to move fast to rescue the child from something harmful Interesting to note how, apparently, wheel chair bound people make for worst parents... it's amazing that they are capable of keeping offspring alive at all. (And that is not to say that I'm a big far of wearing chains around kids... it's just that I don't see the mobility as a factor for why it may be a bad idea). I've never had to make a "mad dash" to stop any from the 3 kids I've been around as toddlers from doing any thing. If I see something happen that has the potential for danger, my voice and preventing them from getting into that situation in the first place has always been enough. But then again, I also have no experience what so ever with kids doing stuff like randomly running into the street, jamming stuff in light sockets, or attempting to touch a hot stove (as far as some of the things mentioned perviously in this tread goes). It's always been made clear to them that stuff like that is not ok before exposing them to the potential of it happening. At most, I've seen some accidents-waiting-to-happen when they overextend their own capabilities climbing on certain things... but a simple "come down from there" has always sufficed for that... no "mad dashes" needed.

desertratmike -> RE: home birth in chains (4/15/2013 6:23:26 PM)
I cant think of one parent upon the face of this earth who has NEVER had to react quickly to something their children have gotten themselves into, it is a fact that kids do things at the most in-opportune time (usually as soon as you turn your back) that's just what they do. They have no idea of the consequences of the actions they do, until it is to late, it's just the way it is. Having something dragging around your legs , arms, etc is going to hamper your movement and slow your reaction time down considerably. In my opinion that is an unacceptable risk. If she wishes to wear chains around the house then that's her thing, all i can offer is MY opinion on the subject (and you can take that and 5 dollars and get a good cup of coffee). First and foremost, raising children (for those of us that have them) takes precedence over any "kink" that we as adults choose to indulge in. Also i do not think wheel chair bound or otherwise handicapped parents are in any way, shape or form " bad parents", there are many kind, caring and loving parents regardless of physical capability, relationship status or whatever out there and as long as they are doing the job right and the child grows up to be a productive member of society then all I have to say is" Job well done!" One of the main items that i believe occurring throughout this thread, is the fact that children should not be exposed to the lifestyle choice that we as adults make, they do not have the knowledge or understanding that it is something that adults choose to do.

Baroana -> RE: home birth in chains (4/15/2013 6:51:06 PM)
It has amazed me that "quick reaction time" persists as number one concern here with regard to a mother wearing chains at home. Running a distant second place is the possibility of child protective services paying a visit. I seem to be about the only person here that gives a shit about the harm inherent in such indoctrination of children. C'mon everyone, let's teach our children that subjugation is ok! Sexism too!

desertratmike -> RE: home birth in chains (4/15/2013 7:01:40 PM)
I also agree with you on that point Baroana, that's why i said that children should not be exposed to the things we do as adults. We make our own choices in what we do and should NEVER NEVER NEVER expose, indoctrinate or do anything that would influence the perceptions of our children, I am with you 100% on that one!

Baroana -> RE: home birth in chains (4/15/2013 7:05:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: desertratmike I also agree with you on that point Baroana, that's why i said that children should not be exposed to the things we do as adults. We make our own choices in what we do and should NEVER NEVER NEVER expose, indoctrinate or do anything that would influence the perceptions of our children, I am with you 100% on that one! I'm glad you agree. Few people speak up when sexism comes out on these forums, and it comes out a lot.

desertratmike -> RE: home birth in chains (4/15/2013 7:14:06 PM)
Thank you, i may be new and very in experienced but there are certain subjects that i feel very passionate about, one of the things that my wife and i have discussed thoroughly is the fact that we will never let our children know of what we do, it would bring serious harm to our home life. Besides why do they need to know about that anyway.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: home birth in chains (4/15/2013 7:16:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Baroana It has amazed me that "quick reaction time" persists as number one concern here with regard to a mother wearing chains at home. Running a distant second place is the possibility of child protective services paying a visit. I totally agree with that. Mobility is so far down the list of issues that it shouldn't even be a consideration.

wittynamehere -> RE: home birth in chains (4/15/2013 7:20:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wintermaster She wants to have this baby fully chained (ankles and wrists) as she says that this will allow her to express her submissive/slave side and provide a unique aspect to the experience. After searching the internet, I am starting to believe that it is a truly unique experience... Is there anyone with this kind of experience? I don't think you should endanger a baby's life (and that's what this is, even if there is only a little bit of additional danger imposed by the bondage) to further your sexual bucket list. The baby deserves to be free of your kink at an extremely important point in its life - its birth! I'm shocked this thread is allowed here. This goes far beyond "extreme bad taste" and actually suggests endangering a child, for NO other reason than the parents' sexual whims. NOT cool.

njlauren -> RE: home birth in chains (4/15/2013 7:21:29 PM)
Baroana- I personally would question about going around in chains with kids around, but it is a touchy subject, and I personally would not recommend it. That said, there is also the line where people are leading the lives they want to, and it gets to be hard, because so many people want to judge what others do, where do you draw the line? (and again, I am not disagreeing with you per se, the idea of wearing chains like that around kids bothers me, the same way I was bothered in another thread I was reading either here or someplace else about a dominant woman who was literally training her daughters to be dominant, who was open about the D/s in place and so forth, and the girl reputedly could hardly wait to be like dear old mom). At the very least, I would talk to a kink aware therapist, the same way that when I was transitioning (before pulling back), I worked with a therapist how to tell our kid about it, explain it, and do it as well as we could. As far as the sexism goes, it depends on whether you are worried about it would teach the kids (i.e that woman should be chained up, subservient, and that image gets to the kids) or it is that they are Male D/female s (I apologize, but there are a lot of women, in the scene, who find male D/female s to be pure sexism, recreating the patriarchy, etc). If it is the former, that would be one of my worries, and also that the kids may not understand it, or process it right. If it was that important, it should be discussed with a therapist I think, simply to be safe. On the other hand, I am sensitive, because though I worked with a therapist, believe me, and had a shitload of help, I also ran into people who thought what I was doing was horrible, that my duty as a parent if I wanted to transition was run off like some animal and hide what I was doing, be ashamed of it, because in their opinion "it would hurt the kid" (meanwhile, gee, I was working with professionals, but they knew better)....some of the worst offenders were some of the lesbians at the church I belonged to, many of whom were not exactly gender conforming, who had kids, and they had the balls to make noises about it, or even try to get the church to throw my family out because 'it wasn't right' ....ironic, but true, I guess having two stone butch moms was all american but a M to F parent, strictly to be buried under a rock someplace sigh.......so for me it isn't always so easy, though in this case I do agree with you, I would worry about the kids, but I also try to be fair to others and their needs/beliefs, it is always a tough call:)

UllrsIshtar -> RE: home birth in chains (4/15/2013 7:26:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: desertratmike I cant think of one parent upon the face of this earth who has NEVER had to react quickly to something their children have gotten themselves into, it is a fact that kids do things at the most in-opportune time (usually as soon as you turn your back) that's just what they do. I've never had to react quickly in a way where chains would have made the slightest bit of difference. Stuff has always been explained to them in a way that they didn't do it before they'd been given the chance to do it. And when they were to young to understand such things, I'd just never let them get into a situation where they where alone with the potential of something like that happening. I mean, you don't let a baby crawl around unattended with electric sockets in reach, so there is no need for "mad dashes". And a 3 or 4 year old you would leave alone with an electric socket in reach should know by that time that they are dangerous, and why. With that concept explained, none of the kids I've been around have ever attempted to play with them. That tactic has pretty much applied to all context where a "mad dash" could have been needed, so it never happened.

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