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RE: Muslim thugs - 3/24/2013 8:50:17 AM   
Baroana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Baroana

Show me any self-described "religious" person, and I'll show you someone who has cherry picked their beliefs from whatever holy text they claim to believe in.

People who are religious believe in some concept of the Divine or God, not in a book. Approaching their texts in the way you describe constitutes exercising discernment. When done by people who believe first and foremost in a particular book, then it's called hypocricy. And failure to distinguish between the two is called something else.

K.




Hey, if someone wants to decide for themselves who god is and what god's rules are, then I'm fine with it.

I'm fine with it until they start suggesting that their god's rules apply to me.

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Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Muslim thugs - 3/24/2013 8:56:48 AM   
Baroana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
All three of the Abrahamic religions relegate women to an inferior status.


Bullshit. You want to discuss it with my female rabbi, go ahead, because I'm not going to ask her something that stupid. Or the female pararabbinic fellow at my congregation, or the female cantor.

Are women not segregated in orthodox services? Perhaps I have it wrong. Let me hear.


You're correct. Orthodox services are gender segregated. That said, there aren't that many. There are more Conservative congregations and far more Reform congregations than Orthodox.




Um, ever been to Israel?

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Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Muslim thugs - 3/24/2013 9:39:42 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Whatever view you may hold about the analogy, the principle remains valid - we shouldn't judge a billion and a half people on the basis of the statements/actions of a few of their number.

A few - that amounts to two or three persons, doesn't it?


_____________________________

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Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Muslim thugs - 3/24/2013 4:35:25 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1
If you have some science to disprove anything I said, post a link to it.

If you have something unique about ME culture, that every other culture around the world has never experienced, document it.
quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
nice strawman though.



He just disproved something you said, the mischaracterization of his position. Don't double down on the strawman.


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Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Muslim thugs - 3/24/2013 4:48:31 PM   
WantsOfTheFlesh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1
If you have some science to disprove anything I said, post a link to it.

If you have something unique about ME culture, that every other culture around the world has never experienced, document it.
quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
nice strawman though.


He just disproved something you said, the mischaracterization of his position. Don't double down on the strawman.

funny how ya edited tha part of my post where i explained how he strawmanned. again i never claimed there was anything uniquely thuggish featured in islamic culture. fact is i said tha opposite but he pretended i did so its a strawman.

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Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Muslim thugs - 3/24/2013 4:56:07 PM   
WantsOfTheFlesh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1
You haven't produced anything factual to support the notion that Islam uniquely causes anything that isn't old news in human history.

kinda surprised at yr combative attitude but i seem to recall you made tha claim so tha onus is on you ta prove islamic culture has nothing to do with tha thuggishness against women in tha islamic world. i just asked why ya thought there was no connection between cultural identity & tha manifest violence http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4409309

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RE: Muslim thugs - 3/24/2013 5:19:23 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

hey Butch; there are decent muslims, but there is a significant segment of their world that needs a good kick in the ass to get them to evolve a bit more.


Such a profound insight! To think that millions of years of evolution played a part in formulating this odious bit of racist crap........

You only have to change one word in this post to see how evil it is. Try replacing "muslim' with any religion/race/sexual orientation of your choice and then using a stop watch, time how long it takes you to realise precisely how repulsive and ugly it is.

If it takes you more than 5 seconds, you need to consider remedial classes...... as a matter of urgency.


Um muslim isn't a race, It's sets of ideas. Some ideas are bad ideas. It's not racist to point out that their are some awful ideas floating around in Islam at present.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Muslim thugs - 3/24/2013 9:10:02 PM   
Powergamz1


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.... Editing out?

< Message edited by Powergamz1 -- 3/24/2013 9:20:23 PM >


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Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Muslim thugs - 3/24/2013 9:17:28 PM   
Powergamz1


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I've backed up my claims with links to scientific research. What you keep pretending to not understand has been thoroughly explained, and is exhaustively documented. The burden isn't on the person dealing in reality and facts, the burden is on the person challenging reality... in this case, yourself. And you've failed to meeet that challenge.

Additionally your fraudulent claims that I ever said any such things about Islamic culture are exactly that... fraud. You deliberately edited out the qualifying words I did use, and inserted not just absolute words I never used, but spin to the opposite conclusion, to create a falsehood.

Thus the 'combative' lie is all yours as well.

If you have anything either correct or useful, I'll be sure to let you know.



quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1
You haven't produced anything factual to support the notion that Islam uniquely causes anything that isn't old news in human history.

kinda surprised at yr combative attitude but i seem to recall you made tha claim so tha onus is on you ta prove islamic culture has nothing to do with tha thuggishness against women in tha islamic world. i just asked why ya thought there was no connection between cultural identity & tha manifest violence http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4409309



< Message edited by Powergamz1 -- 3/24/2013 9:18:03 PM >


_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Muslim thugs - 3/24/2013 10:03:24 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Until enlightened Muslims stand up, stop, and condemn unequivocally the barbaric behavior of many in their religion they are all guilty on my view.

An Islamic Response to 'Muslim Street Patrols'

K.



Thank you for posting that video. I found it revealing.

There's an awful lot of work like this happening inside the Muslim world. Here (in Oz) there are numerous Govt-funded programs that target Muslim youth, with the aim of ensuring they don't get alienated from mainstream Australian and Islamic culture thereby becoming prime recruiting material for the nutcases.

This work isn't glamourous, it is carried out quietly and, from all I can gather, quite successfully. Other countries have similar programs. One well known one is the French Govt program, which funds Iman-training at University level, with the obvious goal of excluding the more extremist interpretations of Islam, and the lunatics who preach them from French Islam. By its nature this work doesn't attract media interest, which focuses almost exclusively on hardliners. So a skewed impression of Islamic attitudes towards extremists can easily be gained by someone who relies exclusively on mainstream media for their info.

That we are not inundated with media reports of 'moderate' Islamic programs aimed at excluding extremist points of view doesn't mean they aren't happening. They are happening in some places (I have no idea of the US situation) and apparently quite successfully too. Information on such programs can be easily found by any one who wishes to investigate the area. It's only a google or two away.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 3/24/2013 10:11:50 PM >


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Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Muslim thugs - 3/25/2013 3:54:35 AM   
MrBukani


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Muslims will lie to you because they are allowed to lie to non believers. The so called moderate muslims will not tell you the truth. And that truth is that the whole world must become muslim according to the prophet Mohammed. There is no 2 ways about that. Just like they put a veil on their women, they will put a veil on the truth to make you believe they are moderate. Your muslim friends will never admit it. Forget about it.

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Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Muslim thugs - 3/25/2013 4:40:05 AM   
WantsOfTheFlesh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1
I've backed up my claims with links to scientific research. What you keep pretending to not understand has been thoroughly explained, and is exhaustively documented. The burden isn't on the person dealing in reality and facts, the burden is on the person challenging reality... in this case, yourself. And you've failed to meeet that challenge.

nah, ya posted 2 links to primate research. thats not in tha same ballpark as backing up claims ya made about a manifest thuggishness in the islamic world against women having nothing to do wit religion or cultural identity of perpetrators.

ya claim you deal in reality & facts but refuse to provide the real meat. you strawmanned instead & demanded i back up my views when yr tha one making tha big claims.

quote:


Additionally your fraudulent claims that I ever said any such things about Islamic culture are exactly that... fraud. You deliberately edited out the qualifying words I did use, and inserted not just absolute words I never used, but spin to the opposite conclusion, to create a falsehood.

Thus the 'combative' lie is all yours as well.

lol yr combative attitude continues by calling me a liar but nothing i said caused it. yr logic is faulty as well. how is supposedly misrepresenting yr views leading to tha proof you werent combative?

heres proof http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4409380 of yr hostility: "you deliberately being dense? Singapore isn't Islamic." ya think its kinda yep 'combative' to say i'm stupid about singapore when i never mentioned it?

quote:

If you have anything either correct or useful, I'll be sure to let you know.

good to know yr the arbiter of all things useful & correct. persumably yr tha sole grand arbiter out there in the world too?

< Message edited by WantsOfTheFlesh -- 3/25/2013 5:17:04 AM >


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Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Muslim thugs - 3/25/2013 5:52:24 AM   
tweakabelle


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The claim that 'Islamic cultures are more “thuggish” than other cultures in their treatment of women' is easily tested.

Indonesia is one of the world’s major Islamic States. The population is overwhelming Muslim except for one island, Bali, which is Hindu. If the claim is valid, then one would expect to observe significant differences in the treatment of women between Hindu Bali and the rest of Islamic Indonesia. One would expect to Balinese women enjoying a significantly higher social status and to be suffering significantly less violence than their Islamic counterparts.

I am unaware of any evidence to support this outcome. To the best of my knowledge, Balinese women don't enjoy any significant social advantages over their Islamic sisters in the rest of Indonesia, and I am unaware of any evidence that suggests that they suffer more male violence than women in the rest of Indonesia. This pattern is repeated in Malaysia, another SE Asian predominantly Muslim country with significant Chinese and Indian communities. If anything, my observation was that Malay Muslim women seem far more ‘liberated’ than their Indian sisters, who tend to live in far more 'traditional' situations.

This situation is repeated in predominantly Buddhist Thailand, which has a sizable Islamic community in Southern Thailand, and in Cambodia, another Buddhist majority country with an Islamic minority community. I didn’t observe any significant differences in the social status of women, or levels of male violence against women between Buddhist and Islamic communities. Nor have I ever heard of any research/studies that suggest otherwise.

So the evidence from SE Asian Islamic communities suggests that the claim that ‘ Islamic cultures are more “thuggish” in their treatment of women than other cultures’ does not appear to have any basis in fact.*


* Please note I am not suggesting for an instant that Islamic cultures treat women in any kind of laudable fashion or that there is no violence against women in those cultures.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 3/25/2013 5:56:31 AM >


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Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Muslim thugs - 3/25/2013 6:33:13 AM   
Rule


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Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

The number of women murdered in a year in Turkey shot up 1,400 percent between 2002 and 2009, according to data recently revealed by the country’s justice minister.
Some 66 women were murdered in Turkey in 2002, but the numbers have been steadily increasing since then, Justice Minister Sadullah Ergin said in response to a parliamentary question from Peace and Democracy Party, or BDP, Van Deputy Fatma Kurtalan.
Eighty-three women were murdered in 2003, 164 in 2004, 317 in 2005, 663 in 2006, 1,011 in 2007, 806 in 2008 and 953 during the first seven months of 2009, the last date for which data was available, according to Ergin.


quote:

“From 2002 to July 2009, a total of 12,678 cases were opened because of violence and murders,” Ergin told Parliament. “Some 15,564 people were tried in those cases, and 6,736 were sentenced. In those cases, 1,869 people were acquitted and 794 people were given parole.”


quote:

According to a government study titled “Research on Domestic Violence against Women in Turkey,” 41.9 percent of Turkish women are subjected to physical and sexual violence. Women at a “low-income level” are assaulted at a rate of 49.9 percent, while the number for higher-income women is still high, at 28.7 percent.
Some 55.8 percent of women who have no education or have not finished primary education are subjected to violence, while 27.2 percent of women with at least a high school diploma or higher are the victims, the study said.
Some 48.5 percent of women experience some form of violence but do not disclose their victimization, the study said, adding that women with a lower income (54.1 percent) were more likely to stay silent about being assaulted than women with more education (37.5 percent).
Some 23.4 percent of women have been forced by men to quit their jobs or have been prevented from working; in the lower-income category, this figure is 21.5 percent while it is 21.2 percent for those with higher incomes.
Altogether, 33.7 percent of women said they considered suicide as a solution to their problems. For those with less education, this number is 34.1 percent, while 37.6 of higher educated women have also considered taking their own lives.


The entire article is here.

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Muslim thugs - 3/25/2013 6:52:45 AM   
WantsOfTheFlesh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
The claim that 'Islamic cultures are more “thuggish” than other cultures in their treatment of women' is easily tested.

Indonesia is one of the world’s major Islamic States. The population is overwhelming Muslim except for one island, Bali, which is Hindu. If the claim is valid, then one would expect to observe significant differences in the treatment of women between Hindu Bali and the rest of Islamic Indonesia. One would expect to Balinese women enjoying a significantly higher social status and to be suffering significantly less violence than their Islamic counterparts.

I am unaware of any evidence to support this outcome. To the best of my knowledge, Balinese women don't enjoy any significant social advantages over their Islamic sisters in the rest of Indonesia, and I am unaware of any evidence that suggests that they suffer more male violence than women in the rest of Indonesia.

thanks for yr observations tweak.

dont know too much of tha differences in tha places you talk about but islamic tradition in indonesia is mellower than most other parts of tha world & influenced by sufism mixed wit local pagan traditions. sufism is tha most moderate form of islam so much so its believers r oppressed in tha ME. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Indonesia#Society

quote:

To a significant degree, the striking variations in the practice and interpretation of Islam — in a much less austere form than that practiced in the Middle East — in various parts of Indonesia reflect its complex history. Introduced piecemeal by various traders and wandering mystics from India, Islam first gained a foothold between the twelfth and fifteenth centuries in coastal regions of Sumatra, northern Java, and Kalimantan. Islam probably came to these regions in the form of mystical Sufi tradition. Sufism easily gained local acceptance and became synthesized with local customs.


agreed that hindu women can be treated harshly in their society. tha rape culture in india has been in tha news a lot. but there was open outrage & indian women rose up making tha authorities sit up. doubt anything like that could happen in pakistan where a girl got shot in tha head for only encouraging girls to go to school.

< Message edited by WantsOfTheFlesh -- 3/25/2013 6:55:25 AM >


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RE: Muslim thugs - 3/25/2013 6:58:53 AM   
tweakabelle


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Thanks for that Rule. Though I am not sure what point you wish to make. Perhaps if you decided to include this section of the report, rather than omitting it, its relevance to this discussion would be clearer:

"For Professor Aysel Çelikel, head of the Support for Contemporary Living Association, or ÇYDD, the high increase in the number of murdered women stems from gender inequality and Turkey’s increasingly conservative society.
“Women’s rights are going backward as much as conservatism is increasing in society,” Çelikel told the Hürriyet Daily News & Economic Review on Sunday.
There is a direct correlation between the increase in the inequality between the genders and the increased level of violence men commit against women, she said.
“According to international reports, the reason behind violence against women is the imbalance of power and the inequality between men and women in society,” Çelikel said.
The only way to solve the problem of such violence is to ensure gender equality, Çelikel said.
“Changing the roles and attitudes of men and women within the family and society while also strengthening the role of women is the only solution in defeating violence against women,” the professor said
." (emphasis added)
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/default.aspx?pageid=438&n=women-murder-victims-increase-snowballing-in-turkey-2011-02-20

Levels of violence against women have a "direct co-relation" to levels of gender equality and power imbalances between genders, not religion

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Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Muslim thugs - 3/25/2013 7:44:18 AM   
jlf1961


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

Muslims will lie to you because they are allowed to lie to non believers. The so called moderate muslims will not tell you the truth. And that truth is that the whole world must become muslim according to the prophet Mohammed. There is no 2 ways about that. Just like they put a veil on their women, they will put a veil on the truth to make you believe they are moderate. Your muslim friends will never admit it. Forget about it.




Man I have seen this bullshit argument so many times it is not funny.

Like Christians and Jews, they Muslims have a commandment "Thou shalt not provide false witness" which means you do not lie.

If you are interested in the truth, you might try reading this

You might also avail yourself to a college or university and take a contemporary religions class, and not a fucking survey course, but an indepth study of the major religions in the world.

Of course, the closed minded rarely do anything that might fuck up their warped perception of the world and people that are different to them.

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Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Muslim thugs - 3/25/2013 8:19:57 AM   
Rule


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Psychopaths and narcissists never lie.

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Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Muslim thugs - 3/25/2013 8:28:43 AM   
GotSteel


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The claim of Wants that I do agree with (though he doesn't appear to have been able to understand my post) is that you are misrepresenting his position.

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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Muslim thugs - 3/25/2013 9:59:40 AM   
MrBukani


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read it and I can still make out if I want to, muslims can lie to non believers. And thats exactly the shit with any scripture. You can give it the interpertation you favor. Daily in Instanbuls cafes they still tell the stories of the crusades, while muslims attacked europe first.

Do not tell me to do your study. I have studied religion and history for the past twenty years.
I have lived among muslims, have you? Now see how I question you instead of accuse you of ignorance?
There is little moderation among muslims, it is the hoax they want you to believe. And you obviously fall for it. Maybe you are christian and want to believe that?

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Profile   Post #: 100
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