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RE: Margaret Thatcher Dead - 4/9/2013 8:21:34 PM   
PeonForHer


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RE: Margaret Thatcher Dead - 4/9/2013 8:27:23 PM   
Lucylastic


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we are talking about thirty years ago..Im happy where I am now...and maggies shoved the mortal coil. weeeeeeeeee
blah blah blah...and here you are whinging about me ...and Im not a politician....


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RE: Margaret Thatcher Dead - 4/10/2013 12:26:20 AM   
thezeppo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: thezeppo

Your first link was funny, but if you are actually arguing that people should only have opinions on things they experienced first hand then I wasted my time with the old history degree didn't I? Or are you suggesting that the left live in the past? If that is the case I would actually be inclined to agree with you. Blaming Thatcher does nothing about the present reality.

ETA: the man on the left of that photo looks like he could remember Atlee being in power, never mind Thatcher.


History, and recent history, ie living memory, dont always end up being the same. My point was many of those gloating over Thatchers death dont have a clue why she was elected, or why she was re-elected twice. Anyone who went through the 70s recalls the damage done by the unions. Thatcher always gets blamed for high unemployment but employment was in freefall for a good ten years before she took office.

Cant say I agree with you about the guy on the left, he doesnt look much over thirty to me.



So what does that say about the Left specifically? This is just an instance where some people have reacted to an event that they didn't live through. You and I talked about Israel/Palestine recently and neither of us were around during the British mandate. The Daily Mash clearly isn't a serious site, I live north of Birmingham and not everyone I met was hammered! I agree, the gloating has been disquieting at times, but I don't think you are going to be able to dismiss everyone who celebrated Thatcher's death as not knowing what they are talking about.

Maybe not Atlee, I was just making the point that you were being fairly subjective in your analysis. We really don't have a clue how old those four people are, but we do know that quite a few of the people celebrating were adults when Thatcher was in power.

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RE: Margaret Thatcher Dead - 4/10/2013 4:09:42 AM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		I did qualify my thoughts and say "many" and not "all".

I have to say I have never seen this much vitriol (generally) about the death of a politician. The point remains the UK was in serious decline before she came to power and she did what she thought was right to change things.

Edits to add.......yes I did generalise in my original post, which was wrong of me.

< Message edited by Politesub53 -- 4/10/2013 4:13:01 AM >

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RE: Margaret Thatcher Dead - 4/10/2013 4:19:36 AM   
MrBukani


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Status: offline 		I remember the muslims cheerin the death of all victims of the twin towers. I dont see the difference. That was ignorant too. I dont mind people speakin ill of the dead, but celebrating is unbecoming. It shows no class nor respect for the enemy. I will be relieved the day the damned die, but I wont celebrate it.

Keep whining about politics on the sideline and that is were you will always reside. I am not whining about you, why would I?
I am telling those who celebrate it what the flipside is.
And humans in general tend to look at things with tunnelvision. It serves their made up reality.
Were you celebrating Osama Bin Ladens death too?

Just point out specific wrongs she done with back up and maybe others will learn who were not there at the time. Maybe you will even win some hearts for your cause.
Just saw a show where a lot of american kids dont even know who Hitler was.

Love her or hate her she will always be a powerhouse in history.

< Message edited by MrBukani -- 4/10/2013 4:38:48 AM >

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RE: Margaret Thatcher Dead - 4/10/2013 4:29:30 AM   
thezeppo


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Status: offline 		I think it would be a struggle to assert on any empirical basis that even a majority of people celebrating had no idea what happened during Thatcher's government, but I think I'm flogging a dead horse somewhat there so I will stop. The UK certainly was in serious decline, the commitment to full employment had ceased to make economic sense and it had become a burden. However, Thatcher's solution ripped the soul out of the country - She privatised everything she could, and in doing so she changed the country irrevocably. And for what? We may have subsidised failing industry back then, but at least we were ultimately subsidising the ability of people to work. Under Thatcher we invited in private investment - a process continued under New Labour, and now when things go wrong we subsidise the investors. The unions had too much power, absolutely, but in removing their power we created a vacuum that was filled by corporations. Now Cameron can get away with proposals to remove workers rights in exchange for shares, because there is no voice to stop him. She might have done what she thought was right, but she ignored the - many - voices which disagreed with her.

I don't personally take any joy in the simple fact of her passing, but I completely understand why people would. I'm not saying she created the problems, but her solutions destroyed peoples lives.

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RE: Margaret Thatcher Dead - 4/10/2013 4:39:16 AM   
thezeppo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

I remember the muslims cheerin the death of all victims of the twin towers. I dont see the difference. That was ignorant too. I dont mind people speakin ill of the dead, but celebrating is unbecoming. It shows no class nor respect for the enemy. I will be relieved the day the damned die, but I wont celebrate it.

Keep whining about politics on the sideline and that is were you will always reside. I am not whining about you, why would I?
I am telling those who celebrate it what the flipside is.
And humans in general tend to look at things with tunnelvision. It serves their made up reality.
Where you celebrating Osama Bin Ladens death too?


To be fair, I did say in an earlier post that complaining about Thatcher does nothing to change present reality. However, this is a discussion forum labelled 'politics and religion' so I'm not really sure what you were expecting to be happening in here.

I didn't actually celebrate the fact of Osama Bin Laden's death, but neither did I condemn those who did, which is pretty much the same position I am taking here. I'm not really sure where the inconsistency is in that regard.

Who are 'the damned' in your estimation?

ETA: Oooh, the cheeky edit after I reply. I'm going to maybe be a little inconsistent here, seeing as I have taken issue with this in the past, but I am of the opinion that as long as I am polite, I discuss on the basis of things that people say, I ask questions for the purposes of clarification rather than to prove a point, then I can say pretty much anything I please.

< Message edited by thezeppo -- 4/10/2013 4:43:12 AM >

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RE: Margaret Thatcher Dead - 4/10/2013 5:14:28 AM   
WantsOfTheFlesh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
I have to say I have never seen this much vitriol (generally) about the death of a politician. The point remains the UK was in serious decline before she came to power and she did what she thought was right to change things.

yup & its not doing tha general image of tha left any favours. maggie was open bout her values unlike loadsa politicos today on all sides. if british folks voted for her three times they cant turn & say well gee we didnt get it. thats an important point to her critics i reckon. she was repeatedly elected on clear mandates to keep on keeping on wit strong policies. it was tha will of tha people (like with ronnie) to keep electing her & its kinda fucked up to now take so much pleasure in her slow decline & death. not a good attitude toward democracy i reckon coz she would have been nowhere without tha will of the people.

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RE: Margaret Thatcher Dead - 4/10/2013 5:17:12 AM   
WantsOfTheFlesh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thezeppo
I didn't actually celebrate the fact of Osama Bin Laden's death, but neither did I condemn those who did, which is pretty much the same position I am taking here. I'm not really sure where the inconsistency is in that regard.

so ya thunk been leaded was ona par wit maggie?

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RE: Margaret Thatcher Dead - 4/10/2013 5:18:35 AM   
thezeppo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

quote:

ORIGINAL: thezeppo
I didn't actually celebrate the fact of Osama Bin Laden's death, but neither did I condemn those who did, which is pretty much the same position I am taking here. I'm not really sure where the inconsistency is in that regard.

so ya thunk been leaded was ona par wit maggie?


I think you have asked the wrong person that question Wantsoftheflesh. I was replying to someone else.

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RE: Margaret Thatcher Dead - 4/10/2013 5:37:10 AM   
WantsOfTheFlesh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thezeppo
quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
quote:

ORIGINAL: thezeppo
I didn't actually celebrate the fact of Osama Bin Laden's death, but neither did I condemn those who did, which is pretty much the same position I am taking here. I'm not really sure where the inconsistency is in that regard.

so ya thunk been leaded was ona par wit maggie?

I think you have asked the wrong person that question Wantsoftheflesh. I was replying to someone else.

i was replying to tha general point both from yrself & bukani. my view is there is no inconsistency in celebrating osamas death & disliking celebration of maggies death.

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RE: Margaret Thatcher Dead - 4/10/2013 5:48:55 AM   
thezeppo


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Status: offline 		I think its pretty tasteless to bring up a terrorist in a discussion of a politician at all, which is why I'm glad I'm not the one that did it. I'm not going to argue with your view, although I think quoting only me and replying only to me misrepresents what I said. If your intention was to reply to a general point made by two people then you lose marks academically for not quoting the locus classicus of that view point.

I will happily discuss your contention that Thatcher's electoral wins in the 80's were primarily as a result of her policies, but if you want to talk Bin Laden then Mr. Bukani is your man.

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RE: Margaret Thatcher Dead - 4/10/2013 6:09:42 AM   
WantsOfTheFlesh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thezeppo
I think its pretty tasteless to bring up a terrorist in a discussion of a politician at all, which is why I'm glad I'm not the one that did it. I'm not going to argue with your view, although I think quoting only me and replying only to me misrepresents what I said. If your intention was to reply to a general point made by two people then you lose marks academically for not quoting the locus classicus of that view point.

I will happily discuss your contention that Thatcher's electoral wins in the 80's were primarily as a result of her policies, but if you want to talk Bin Laden then Mr. Bukani is your man.

lol this aint an academic setting. i was replying to tha point but also to you specifically when i asked if ya thought osama was in some way on a par wit maggie after ya said:
quote:

ORIGINAL: thezeppo
I didn't actually celebrate the fact of Osama Bin Laden's death, but neither did I condemn those who did, which is pretty much the same position I am taking here. I'm not really sure where the inconsistency is in that regard.

yr point could be taken various ways but i thunk if theres an inconsistency its in having tha same stance over celebrating tha death of a mass murderer & a controversial politician.

< Message edited by WantsOfTheFlesh -- 4/10/2013 6:15:36 AM >

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RE: Margaret Thatcher Dead - 4/10/2013 6:10:09 AM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		I believe Bukani was responding to my comment Zeppo...yours just happened to be in the middle.
If he was, I treated it with the ....contempt, it deserved.
If he wasnt, my apologies:)

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RE: Margaret Thatcher Dead - 4/10/2013 6:30:23 AM   
thezeppo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

quote:

ORIGINAL: thezeppo

if you want to talk Bin Laden then Mr. Bukani is your man.



Bolded for emphasis. I hope! If you want to talk about the morality of celebrating death we can do that, I'm not doing it comparatively between Thatcher and Bin Laden though, the only equation between the two is that they both died, and people celebrated their death. Their actions in life don't invite comparison.

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RE: Margaret Thatcher Dead - 4/10/2013 6:36:32 AM   
thezeppo


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Status: offline 		Yeah, at this point I wish I would have done the same lol

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RE: Margaret Thatcher Dead - 4/10/2013 6:51:09 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

I have to say I have never seen this much vitriol (generally) about the death of a politician. The point remains the UK was in serious decline before she came to power and she did what she thought was right to change things.


I suspected from the outset that the 'respect for the dead' card is one that would get played in order that a big space be opened up for some super-nauseating eulogising of Thatcher. And Cameron is doing that - and more: he and other Tories want to use Thatcher's death in order to laud the virtues of Tory ideology without any squeak of dissenting voice. They'll be able to manage it, too: as John Healey (the ex-Housing and Treasury minister) has pointed out, there won't be any opportunity to argue with the rosy views of Thatcher and her ideology presented today in the Commons.

Nup. I'm sorry, PS, but sod that for a game of soldiers.


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RE: Margaret Thatcher Dead - 4/10/2013 9:22:04 AM   
WantsOfTheFlesh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thezeppo
quote:

if you want to talk Bin Laden then Mr. Bukani is your man.

Bolded for emphasis. I hope!

thanx for tha effort to bold tha text but i wonder do ya understand how a forum works? when ya replied to bukani, yr own remarks were open for comment just as you replied to my posts on pages past that were answering someone else.


quote:

If you want to talk about the morality of celebrating death we can do that, I'm not doing it comparatively between Thatcher and Bin Laden though, the only equation between the two is that they both died, and people celebrated their death. Their actions in life don't invite comparison.

nah yr wrong coz the reason for celebration is a critical part of tha morality of tha act. their deeds in life are exactly tha point when ya wondered where tha inconsistency was in yr stance. one isa mass murderer of thousands of innocents & was involved in an ongoing effort to kill more. his death invites celebration by virtue of deeds in life. tha same cant be said about tha acts of margaret thatcher who also did what she did under democratic mandate even if she was controversial.

< Message edited by WantsOfTheFlesh -- 4/10/2013 9:58:07 AM >

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RE: Margaret Thatcher Dead - 4/10/2013 12:13:12 PM   
thezeppo


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Status: offline 		I understand the concept mate, but thank you for the clarification anyway. I think probably you should have paid attention to your own comment regarding mine, where you said it can be interpreted in a number of different ways. Let me make it explicit for you - I don't consider Maggie Thatcher to be on a par with Osama Bin Laden. If your opinion is that I should have celebrated Osama Bin Laden's death then that's your opinion. In this regard I don't mind your perception of inconsistency in not celebrating either persons death, and I've said a couple of times that I think comments saying I hope she died a slow and painful death are disquieting. I say I can understand why people would celebrate Thatcher's death as I'm from the North of England, my family were directly impacted by the industrial decline there and they blamed Thatcher for it. Whether they were right or not is open for debate.

I don't think it speaks volumes about the Left, I think it speaks volumes about the sheer strength of personal feeling against her in towns in the North, towns that had relied upon their industry for their very survival. That was the point I originally took issue with. As I have said already I don't think Thatcher just did it because she was evil, these were problems that needed fixing and some decline was inevitable. Her solutions were devoid of compassion for the people that would be impacted by enforced job-cuts and by withdrawal of funding for councils. I think she set the country down a new road by inviting in private interest, to the extent that private interest is all we have now.

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RE: Margaret Thatcher Dead - 4/10/2013 12:56:53 PM   
WantsOfTheFlesh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thezeppo
I understand the concept mate, but thank you for the clarification anyway. I think probably you should have paid attention to your own comment regarding mine, where you said it can be interpreted in a number of different ways. Let me make it explicit for you - I don't consider Maggie Thatcher to be on a par with Osama Bin Laden.

i made tha comment so i paid plenty of attention. its why i asked ya to clarify from the get go & you kept passing tha buck to bukani for a long ole time but thanx for clearing it up.

quote:


If your opinion is that I should have celebrated Osama Bin Laden's death then that's your opinion.

why do ya think i thought that? yr right to celebrate or mourn anyones passing is no one elses business. i was just saying yr apparent consistency on tha rights or wrongs of celebrating tha death of two famous figures was worth asking about coz theyre a million miles apart. one was a butcher of innocent people & tha other a democratic politician.

quote:

In this regard I don't mind your perception of inconsistency in not celebrating either persons death, and I've said a couple of times that I think comments saying I hope she died a slow and painful death are disquieting.

yup you said it was disquieting but at tha same time were defending it wit polite. either its wrong or right to celebrate it & maybe ya should focus more on feelings of disquiet.

quote:

I don't think it speaks volumes about the Left, I think it speaks volumes about the sheer strength of personal feeling against her in towns in the North, towns that had relied upon their industry for their very survival. That was the point I originally took issue with. As I have said already I don't think Thatcher just did it because she was evil, these were problems that needed fixing and some decline was inevitable. Her solutions were devoid of compassion for the people that would be impacted by enforced job-cuts and by withdrawal of funding for councils.

seems british coal died way before maggie http://www.thecommentator.com/article/1497/thatcher_s_achievements_will_long_outlive_the_spite_of_sheffield_s_sons_and_daughters

< Message edited by WantsOfTheFlesh -- 4/10/2013 1:13:29 PM >

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