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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/23/2013 6:09:09 AM   
leonine


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Status: offline 		It doesn't surprise me any more than the fact that most school shooters are that sort of age. It's the same mindset. (BTW, if a young Muslim walked into a school with an automatic rifle and started shooting people at random, the media would be calling him a terrorist before the blood was dry. Why don't they call the white Protestant ones that? Just asking.)

Some young men will do anything to be noticed, to be special, to feel they are really doing something about the rage they feel at the things that strike them as wrong. (And the feeling is just as deep and as real whether they are enraged at global warming or the crimes of capitalism or abortion, or Palestinian or Chechnyan politics, or the fact that they can't get laid, and often they can't separate the motives.) Some join gangs or churches or campaigns or the armed forces, some become solo campaigners, and some pick up a gun or make bombs. Any society that can direct all that energy in positive directions has a power source that makes nuclear reactors look small.

Currently, we're not doing well. Most of our attitude to young men is about keeping them down and tamed and out of mischief, which rarely works. The wonder is that we get so few explosions, whether collective in the form of riots, or solo in the form of bombers or school shooters.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

Okay its almost 3am, I have had some red wine {for my heart of course}, and I am tipsy posting.

Does it bother anyone else that the suspected terrorists are so young?

My favorite heartbeat young person is 19, and we were talking about this tonight.
He was floored that the suspect was the same age that he is.

Does the fact that the 19 year old appeared to be so involved in such typical Western activities, including recent high school graduation/and being enrolled in college matter?

Another reason I ask this, is because so many seem to feel that young/juvenile offenders can be rehabiliated no matter crimes they commit.

Its so easy to think that way, except in cases like this.

Maybe this young person can be rehabilitated like all the others his age?
{IF he survives}
Don't many around here feel that most young people can turn their lives around?
pot/kettle/black around here much?

Is it just me, or does it not really matter?
Does the fact that they are/were 26 and 19 matter, or is it not relevant?
Please be gentle, I am a very sensitive and delicate soul.

Peace



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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/23/2013 6:31:30 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

As I am learning new information about the older and younger brother, I cannot help but feel a little for the little brother. There may be minimal mitigating factors to be considered, so that maybe he ought not be executed for his alleged crimes.

I feel similar in that I think the younger was dragged into this by his older brother but on the other hand, he exhibited no remorse after the bombing as he went about his life as normal, sleeping at the dorm, going to the gym, classes, offering a friend a ride (which never happened due to the manhunt), and even discussing the bombing with a friend and tweeting comments such as "stay safe" etc.. imo, its almost like he is a psychopath without any regard or remorse for killing & maiming people and children, etc.. In the end he killed his own brother, that probably will hurt him more than anything else, partly cuz his family will know he did that and partly cuz if he looked up to his brother, he should have some feelings of guilt over killing him (whether he does feel anything over that or not depends on if he actually is a psychopath or not)..

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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/23/2013 1:17:47 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

I'm saying plenty of contributors to this thread (just like plenty of humans in general) have the mental architecture that enables mass murder


In one context I agree with you but in a very limited way. There are not plenty... they are not common...if they were there would be plenty and there are not ... so common sense says you are wrong...However...

In a limited sense such as a bombardier that pulls the lever to drop fire bombs on cities... or the remote operator of a drone that fires the tomahawk missile into a home...these men could be said to be mass killers. But... these same men guided by duty if given the choice would NOT kill innocents. That is the difference between the killers in Boston... They had the choice in their hands and chose to kill innocents when there was a myriad of targets that did not.

Now... of the type of mass murder that given the choice would kill innocents I do not believe is common and certainly not plenty of posters here.

I can tell you Aswad under no circumstances given a choice would I kill innocents. Are you saying that you can see circumstances where you could? I hope not.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 4/23/2013 1:50:52 PM >

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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/23/2013 1:33:05 PM   
DoIt4MeNow


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Status: offline 		I think it bothers me a little bit that people are bothered at all by the age of the terrorist. I'm far too outraged by the age of the 8 year old victim (and his 6 year old sister who lost her leg. Lost her leg and her brother at the age of 6!!!!! Bc of this asshole!!!!) to give a damn about the age of the terrorist. Totally misplaced sympathy. WTF is wrong with people. Maybe you should try and explain to that little girl why should should feel sorry for the terrorist. Tell me how that conversation goes.

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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/23/2013 1:34:33 PM   
kdsub


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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/23/2013 3:31:52 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Sorry Aswad, but I feel I must take issue with this assertion in your otherwise incisive analysis. The main reason is that this assertion eliminates State terrorism from the discussion.


I'm providing a description of current colloquial use of the term terrorism, which has undergone a semantic shift in the public sphere (and thus also political discourse) into a meaning closer to underdog. We probably could lump in state terrorism with conventional terrorism, if we define it in terms of the effect on the target population, but we would be doing ourselves a disfavor if we're trying to be rigorous, as there are much better terms available already: oppression, persecution, genocide, tyranny, state violence, illegal warfare, etc. The meanings of words are defined by their use, so state terrorism is best to describe with words that won't be misunderstood.

Besides, the deeper point I'm making is, might makes right in international politics, no matter how much lip service we pay to nobler ideals. Sad, but true. You're at parity, or not; strong, or weak; aggressor, or defender. State terrorism fits a pattern of strong aggressor, weak defender, in an attack-optional situation. What is called terrorism in current discourse, however, fits a pattern of weak aggressor, strong defender, usually in a situation where attack is not perceived as being optional. Internationally, and in the media, the moral high ground belongs to the victor, subsidiarily to the strong, a reversion to premodern concepts of morality, with contempt for weakness, regardless of ethical status and conduct.

As the song goes... what a wonderful world.

quote:

Wearing the uniform of a State, acting under orders in a recognised National Army, does not entitle one to automatic exemption from the terrorist label.


Correction: it doesn't change the nature of what one is doing, but may certainly change the label. The exemption from the usual label is never automatic, though. It's usually accomplished through substantial effort and weight of history, what we may collectively call propaganda or culture centricism or any other label we care to slap on the thing that shapes the pool so we can perform that popular mental shell game wherein matters such as accountability and morality never quite seem to be under any of the shells.

We may not like it (I certainly don't), but we should acknowledge the realities of how it works.

quote:

I feel it is important to recognise this aspect of terrorism as it is often the main cause of violent resistance itself.


All terrorism is counterterrorism or insanity, I suspect. Since states by definition are sociopaths, that pans out nicely.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/23/2013 8:45:09 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

And yet, you've caught US-born terrorists before and not felt justified in proposing to rip up the Bill of Rights. That's because they were WASPs, so you didn't even call them terrorists, even though they committed the same kind of crimes.

Which home grown WASP terrorists do you mean?

And where did I ever propose ripping up the Bill of Rights?

Are you daft, man?

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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/23/2013 10:29:39 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
The meanings of words are defined by their use, so state terrorism is best to describe with words that won't be misunderstood.





That's terribly unenlightened of you, Aswad. The meaning of words are defined by their emotional impact, in the service of the talking points and morality du jour.

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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/24/2013 1:43:51 AM   
BlkTallFullfig


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
on the other hand, he exhibited no remorse after the bombing as he went about his life as normal, sleeping at the dorm, going to the gym, classes, offering a friend a ride (which never happened due to the manhunt), and even discussing the bombing with a friend and tweeting comments such as "stay safe" etc.. imo, its almost like he is a psychopath without any regard or remorse for killing & maiming people and children, etc.. In the end he killed his own brother, that probably will hurt him more than anything else, partly cuz his family will know he did that and partly cuz if he looked up to his brother, he should have some feelings of guilt over killing him (whether he does feel anything over that or not depends on if he actually is a psychopath or not)..
The normalcy with which he behaved the day after was very disturbing. That he had just harmed the families of those friends didn't seem to slow him down at all. Pretty dumb, to think you're going to plant bombs at probably the most highly photographed event, where everyone's camera phones would be out, and not get caught... Well, that did not work out well for him, the little sociopath.

quote:

DoIt4MeNow
I think it bothers me a little bit that people are bothered at all by the age of the terrorist. I'm far too outraged by the age of the 8 year old victim (and his 6 year old sister who lost her leg. Lost her leg and her brother at the age of 6!!!!! Bc of this asshole!!!!) to give a damn about the age of the terrorist. Totally misplaced sympathy. WTF is wrong with people. Maybe you should try and explain to that little girl why should should feel sorry for the terrorist
I'm with you, so your question must be for the higher minded around these parts, who are shocked, and having blood curdling effects from our base emotional expressions. M


< Message edited by BlkTallFullfig -- 4/24/2013 1:50:16 AM >

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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/24/2013 1:48:43 AM   
Rule


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Status: offline 		I do hope that they perform a brain scan on him. It will be interesting to see which part(s) of his brains are least or most active / developed.

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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/24/2013 1:52:17 AM   
BlkTallFullfig


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
I do hope that they perform a brain scan on him. It will be interesting to see which part(s) of his brains are least or most active / developed.
To some extent, I doubt his brain will be significantly different from ours, but it might be an interesting experiment. M

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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/24/2013 4:40:31 AM   
leonine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

quote:

ORIGINAL: leonine
Of course, knowing what we know now, it's possible he already had intel that the perps were known to be Muslims: so he knew it was a safe call, he wouldn't end up with the Right howling at him for daring to call some Unabomber type "terrorist."

improbable coz tha unabomber wasnt right wing. hes been described as anarcho primitivist, part of tha left tho critical of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-primitivist

Not my point at all. My point was that in US political discourse you're only allowed to call Muslims "terrorists". White Protestant bombers and shooters are "lone maniacs," regardless of their professed politics: whereas these two, who appear to have had no real political views beyond a vague fury at their people's distress, will certainly be labelled as jihadists.

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Gonna pack in my hand, pick up on a piece of land and build myself a cabin in the woods.
It's there I'm gonna stay, until there comes a day when this old world starts a-changing for the good.
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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/24/2013 5:50:36 AM   
WantsOfTheFlesh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: leonine
quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
quote:

ORIGINAL: leonine
Of course, knowing what we know now, it's possible he already had intel that the perps were known to be Muslims: so he knew it was a safe call, he wouldn't end up with the Right howling at him for daring to call some Unabomber type "terrorist."

improbable coz tha unabomber wasnt right wing. hes been described as anarcho primitivist, part of tha left tho critical of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-primitivist

Not my point at all. My point was that in US political discourse you're only allowed to call Muslims "terrorists". White Protestant bombers and shooters are "lone maniacs," regardless of their professed politics: whereas these two, who appear to have had no real political views beyond a vague fury at their people's distress, will certainly be labelled as jihadists.

sorry bud but thats rubbish. theres loadsa "discourse" bout right wing extremists & terrorists. tha media was blaming them as much or more than islamists in tha boston bombing ffs. tha obama administration issued reports on them & so did west point in tha last few yrs. theres no issue openly discussing "white" lefty or righty terrorists regardless of yr claim.

< Message edited by WantsOfTheFlesh -- 4/24/2013 6:47:04 AM >

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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/24/2013 8:56:27 AM   
leonine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

quote:

ORIGINAL: leonine
quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
quote:

ORIGINAL: leonine
Of course, knowing what we know now, it's possible he already had intel that the perps were known to be Muslims: so he knew it was a safe call, he wouldn't end up with the Right howling at him for daring to call some Unabomber type "terrorist."

improbable coz tha unabomber wasnt right wing. hes been described as anarcho primitivist, part of tha left tho critical of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-primitivist

Not my point at all. My point was that in US political discourse you're only allowed to call Muslims "terrorists". White Protestant bombers and shooters are "lone maniacs," regardless of their professed politics: whereas these two, who appear to have had no real political views beyond a vague fury at their people's distress, will certainly be labelled as jihadists.

sorry bud but thats rubbish. theres loadsa "discourse" bout right wing extremists & terrorists.

Then why did vincentML say
quote:

Which home grown WASP terrorists do you mean?
...
Are you daft, man?



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Gonna pack in my hand, pick up on a piece of land and build myself a cabin in the woods.
It's there I'm gonna stay, until there comes a day when this old world starts a-changing for the good.
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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/24/2013 9:41:20 AM   
WantsOfTheFlesh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: leonine
Then why did vincentML say
quote:

Which home grown WASP terrorists do you mean?
...
Are you daft, man?

i couldnt say what vincentml meant but looking back over tha post on the last page he may have taken it as a comment against his personal views.

all i can tell ya is theres plenty of talk about right wing terror risks in tha media & among tha politicos. if ya need cites i can provide but try a google search for american sources.

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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/24/2013 9:54:07 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

quote:

ORIGINAL: leonine
Then why did vincentML say
quote:

Which home grown WASP terrorists do you mean?
...
Are you daft, man?

i couldnt say what vincentml meant but looking back over tha post on the last page he may have taken it as a comment against his personal views.

all i can tell ya is theres plenty of talk about right wing terror risks in tha media & among tha politicos. if ya need cites i can provide but try a google search for american sources.

quote:

Not my point at all. My point was that in US political discourse you're only allowed to call Muslims "terrorists". White Protestant bombers and shooters are "lone maniacs," regardless of their professed politics: whereas these two, who appear to have had no real political views beyond a vague fury at their people's distress, will certainly be labelled as jihadists.

Leonine confuses race and religion. If anyone is white it is someone from the Caucasus.
You are right in your reply that we handily stamp 'terrorists' upon the foreheads of people who are not Muslim. Tim MacVeigh comes to mind and the Atlanta Olympics bomber whose name slips by atm. I asked leonine if he is daft cuz I took him to say I had advocated ripping the Constitution.

Finally, I wonder why the hell he could not respond directly to me if he objected to my comments. Surely, Wants, you can tell him what a friendly guy I am.

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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/24/2013 6:08:39 PM   
littlewonder


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I can tell you Aswad under no circumstances given a choice would I kill innocents. Are you saying that you can see circumstances where you could? I hope not.

Butch


You can't think of a single circumstance? Really? I can think of quite a few. The military does it everyday. It's just a part of war. There could be a time that if I have to choose between a loved one and another who is innocent, yeah, I'm gonna choose my loved one. those are just a couple of circumstances and there are lots of others. I would actually hope that Aswad could see those circumstances.



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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/24/2013 8:16:38 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I can tell you Aswad under no circumstances given a choice would I kill innocents. Are you saying that you can see circumstances where you could? I hope not.

Butch


You can't think of a single circumstance? Really? I can think of quite a few. The military does it everyday. It's just a part of war. There could be a time that if I have to choose between a loved one and another who is innocent, yeah, I'm gonna choose my loved one. those are just a couple of circumstances and there are lots of others. I would actually hope that Aswad could see those circumstances.


I wonder if there is not a categorical difference between the morality of nations in total war and and the morality of individuals. Can we really draw an equivalency to such acts as dropping the atomic bomb on Hiroshima? Different categories. Even in war American troops are taught (trained) to kill for their comrades in their platoon not really for their nation foremost . . . and more often the killing done by individuals is done at an impersonal distance. The trooper who launches a missile from a ship or from a jet fighter does not really have a personal encounter with the enemy.

I can understand where you would choose to save your loved one vs saving another innocent. But I cannot imagine a scenario where the choice would be of killing one over the other. Can you? I suppose it could and has happened but pretty rare I think.

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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/24/2013 8:32:18 PM   
Marini


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DoIt4MeNow

I think it bothers me a little bit that people are bothered at all by the age of the terrorist. I'm far too outraged by the age of the 8 year old victim (and his 6 year old sister who lost her leg. Lost her leg and her brother at the age of 6!!!!! Bc of this asshole!!!!) to give a damn about the age of the terrorist. Totally misplaced sympathy. WTF is wrong with people. Maybe you should try and explain to that little girl why should should feel sorry for the terrorist. Tell me how that conversation goes.


Here is the "funny thing" about message boards, almost everyone has an OPINION, and people are entitled to have their OPINIONS.

In my opinion, the fact that the younger terrorist is only 19, should not be an issue regarding the consequences of his actions/nor his sentencing.
Whether he is 19 or 49, does not change the crimes that he is being charged with committing.

One of the reasons that I started this thread, is because there has been an increase in violent crimes/terrorist activities/and mass shootings in this country by very young men, and I wanted to hear what other people thought about that.

It's a reflection of the society that we live in when we have increasing numbers of youth that feel they have nothing to live for, and want to kill and terrorize as many as possible on their way out.

< Message edited by Marini -- 4/24/2013 8:45:57 PM >

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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/24/2013 8:36:33 PM   
kdsub


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quote:


You can't think of a single circumstance? Really? I can think of quite a few. The military does it everyday. It's just a part of war


I mentioned those very possibilities in my post...Read again and you will see where I said...." If given a choice" This is the difference from what you stated and the Boston Bombers... they had a choice and chose to kill innocents. I asked Aswad if given a choice would he choose to kill innocents and stated I would not... Now.. would you if you had a choice? I think it takes a rare individual that would and not as Aswad stated be common even among the posters of this thread.

See the difference and what I am saying?

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 4/24/2013 8:39:11 PM >

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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