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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/22/2013 2:50:27 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Let me be sure I understand what you are implying... Are you saying that PLENTY of contributors to this thread, in your mind, are candidates to commit mass murder?


Not as-is. Thanks for asking.

I'm saying plenty of contributors to this thread (just like plenty of humans in general) have the mental architecture that enables mass murder. For those, circumstances are the difference, not character. It's a surprisingly common constellation of traits, against which secular and religious luminaries of various stripes have warned for a few millenia to no avail. The capacities for irrational hatred on a non-individual basis and exclusion of individuals from basic consideration as humans on account of their actions, values or other factors are cornerstones in this regard, but by no means the only pieces to the puzzle.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/22/2013 3:04:07 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Let me be sure I understand what you are implying... Are you saying that PLENTY of contributors to this thread, in your mind, are candidates to commit mass murder?


Not as-is. Thanks for asking.

I'm saying plenty of contributors to this thread (just like plenty of humans in general) have the mental architecture that enables mass murder. For those, circumstances are the difference, not character. It's a surprisingly common constellation of traits, against which secular and religious luminaries of various stripes have warned for a few millenia to no avail. The capacities for irrational hatred on a non-individual basis and exclusion of individuals from basic consideration as humans on account of their actions, values or other factors are cornerstones in this regard, but by no means the only pieces to the puzzle.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

If I may interject . . .

Are you saying that plenty of humans have the capacity to do evil but when an individual does evil we take away his humanity by branding him a monster?

And . . . I am not sure I agree with: "For those, circumstances are the difference, not character." Would you do me the favor to elaborate on this thought just a bit. What circumstances do you think?

Thanks

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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/22/2013 4:00:46 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Are you saying that plenty of humans have the capacity to do evil but when an individual does evil we take away his humanity by branding him a monster?


No. I'm saying- among other things- that once you start reaching for the term "evil", you've pretty much given up on understanding, and have lost.

But, yeah, sure, if you look around, plenty of people have dehumanized the Boston attackers (terms like "animals", "evil" and so forth abound, along with statements about "don't even want to understand", "should be put down", etc.), just like the Boston attackers no doubt dehumanized their fellow man to be able to cross the line to do what they thought was right (and which, if values were applied universally and reciprocally, would probably be right in an objective sense, if the values chosen are the ones espoused by those that dehumanize the Boston attackers).

These weren't demons, monsters, savages, animals or whatever, any more than the average citizen around them.

They were just men like you or me- indeed, boys- who did what they thought was right.

I'm curious what gave them that impression... aren't you?

quote:

And . . . I am not sure I agree with: "For those, circumstances are the difference, not character." Would you do me the favor to elaborate on this thought just a bit. What circumstances do you think?


The circumstance of viewing your own culture "from the outside", and thus seeing those things that aren't obvious when you're "on the inside", and judging those according to the values of your own culture, while being possessed of a capacity for self sacrifice, a capacity for putting in effort, and the attitudes and values that are exhibited by many in this thread and others (e.g. the Sandy Hook threads, earlier, where we touched on some of this before the mods shot it down). Note that those were the exact circumstances of the Oslo/Utøya terrorist, as well, though he was more competent (but sadly lacked any external feedback that could've corrected his impressions; what we call an "echo chamber effect", unfortunately quite prevalent in the US right wing these days, and analyzed by Chomsky on "a few" occasions).

There, but for the grace of whatever, go the same people that want to bring out the tar and feathers.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/22/2013 5:11:31 PM   
farglebargle


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I would suggest that everyone who is OK with Gitmo and the extrajudicial torture of prisoners there, doesn't have any moral authority to object to any evil act committed by anyone else.

FIRST, you regain the moral authority to be outraged, THEN you can be outraged.



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ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/22/2013 5:35:48 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

Okay its almost 3am, I have had some red wine {for my heart of course}, and I am tipsy posting.

Does it bother anyone else that the suspected terrorists are so young?

My favorite heartbeat young person is 19, and we were talking about this tonight.
He was floored that the suspect was the same age that he is.

Does the fact that the 19 year old appeared to be so involved in such typical Western activities, including recent high school graduation/and being enrolled in college matter?

Another reason I ask this, is because so many seem to feel that young/juvenile offenders can be rehabiliated no matter crimes they commit.

Its so easy to think that way, except in cases like this.

Maybe this young person can be rehabilitated like all the others his age?
{IF he survives}
Don't many around here feel that most young people can turn their lives around?
pot/kettle/black around here much?

Is it just me, or does it not really matter?
Does the fact that they are/were 26 and 19 matter, or is it not relevant?
Please be gentle, I am a very sensitive and delicate soul.

Peace


Why would it bother (anyone) what age the kid was?

I'm not bothered by his age.

Are you?

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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/22/2013 5:51:36 PM   
LafayetteLady


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The reasons for why they did what they did will come out, and of course, the media will sensationalize and make many assumptions about it. Does it matter? The defense will attempt to make it matter during the sentencing portion of the trial. Yes, I'm saying this is basically a slam dunk guilty verdict, which is very seldom a reality anywhere but in the press.

Here are some things to think about. Yes, he probably was guided somewhat by his brother, but he DID fit in. He had friends, he participated in things. He wasn't suffering the same sense of isolation as his brother.

The older brother got a felony conviction which prevented him from becoming a US citizen. The younger brother took the test a mere 6 months prior to this incident. Part of that test, and the oath, is swearing your allegiance to the United States, as well as understanding the basic premise of our laws (as in an act of terrorism is unacceptable). So why did this young man take the test? Did he view it as nothing more than a test, which you study for and give the correct answers? Is that the kind of naturalized citizen that we want? Based on this young man's actions at the Boston Marathon, it would seem that the oath he took was meaningless to him.

So yes, finding out more about why these two young men did what they did will be interesting to know. However, the law is pretty clear, and it really won't effect the remaining brother's sentence of the death penalty, nor should it.

Will the information "help" in the future to prevent such acts? Not likely. Every one is an individual, each case unique. It's nice to think that if people hadn't bullied Adam Lanza, or if more effort was made to make the older Tsarnaev feel like he fit in, that they would not have committed the atrocious acts they did. But the reality is that they likely would have found other reasons to do it. Lanza did not go shoot the teachers who didn't protect him, but children that he had enough sense to know had nothing to do with it. Tsarnaev didn't blow up people who made him an outcast. He chose a bunch of strangers, and it was all based on his religious views we have since found out, so it would have happened regardless. After all, the younger Tsarnaev didn't have the issues but did it anyway, huh?

When stuff like this happens, we all want to know why, why, why? But it is because those of us asking why can't imagine in our minds what would make someone do these things.

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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/22/2013 6:08:59 PM   
WantsOfTheFlesh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
lookin' at yrself in tha mirror there aswad?

No. None of my goals can be accomplished with terrorism, and I would obey the rules of engagement if I ever turned to such means. I've no interest in hate-motivated violence.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

and what are yr goals aswad?

< Message edited by WantsOfTheFlesh -- 4/22/2013 6:09:21 PM >


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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/22/2013 6:26:23 PM   
WantsOfTheFlesh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
No. I'm saying- among other things- that once you start reaching for the term "evil", you've pretty much given up on understanding, and have lost.

i reckon thats only tha start of tha debate. havent folks been trying to understand evil for thousands of yrs?

quote:


But, yeah, sure, if you look around, plenty of people have dehumanized the Boston attackers (terms like "animals", "evil" and so forth abound, along with statements about "don't even want to understand", "should be put down", etc.), just like the Boston attackers no doubt dehumanized their fellow man to be able to cross the line to do what they thought was right (and which, if values were applied universally and reciprocally, would probably be right in an objective sense, if the values chosen are the ones espoused by those that dehumanize the Boston attackers).

These weren't demons, monsters, savages, animals or whatever, any more than the average citizen around them.

They were just men like you or me- indeed, boys- who did what they thought was right.

I'm curious what gave them that impression... aren't you?

i reckon theres a disturbing moral equivalence round this issue wit folks like yrself. you compare two jihadists (least tha older bro was anyhow) that bombed families indescriminately wit tha natural response of tha injured party who want revenge for tha crimes they played no part in creating. may not be to yr liking but that visceral response is least as human as love.

theres no comparison between tha hatred of 2 young guys wanting to blast children & families away partaking in an innocent non military unpoliticised activity & distraught folks labelling them animals in justified outrage. they dehumanised 2 depraved killers, tha killers dehumanised tha society they lived among & lashed out at it in tha most vicious way possible.

< Message edited by WantsOfTheFlesh -- 4/22/2013 6:31:24 PM >


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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/22/2013 6:45:58 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

and what are yr goals aswad?


Not that it's any of your business, my main goal is, roughly, as follows:

Good lives for me and mine, without outside interference.

Everything else follows from that.

quote:

i reckon thats only tha start of tha debate. havent folks been trying to understand evil for thousands of yrs?


Ever since we invented it, pretty much, something Nietzsche pins on the Roman Jews and early Christians.

It's a remarkably persistent dead end that's been the cause of ample suffering.

quote:

i reckon theres a disturbing moral equivalence round this issue wit folks like yrself.


Looking at the deeper causes behind things is always more disturbing than a witch hunt, but ultimately less embarassing a few centuries later when history judges the witch hunt harshly and recognizes the voices of reason that were drowned out by the chorus of the vulgar inquisition (usually with a smug assertion that the same has somehow magically ceased to be the norm since then).

Tell me: what's the difference between an aversion to killing and a love of life?

quote:

you compare two jihadists (least tha older bro was anyhow) that bombed families indescriminately wit tha natural response of tha injured party who want revenge for tha crimes they played no part in creating. may not be to yr liking but that visceral response is least as human as love.


I compare the underlying character, not the actions. Crucial distinction that you seem to be missing.

quote:

they dehumanised 2 depraved killers, tha killers dehumanised tha society they lived among & lashed out at it in tha most vicious way possible.


As you say, the problem is essentially the same. Keep going on that track, and you'll see the rest of what I mean.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/22/2013 7:15:41 PM   
WantsOfTheFlesh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
and what are yr goals aswad?

Not that it's any of your business, my main goal is, roughly, as follows:

Good lives for me and mine, without outside interference.

Everything else follows from that.

vague stuff like that is no answer plus i'm entitled to ask coz ya brought it up.

quote:

quote:

i reckon thats only tha start of tha debate. havent folks been trying to understand evil for thousands of yrs?

Ever since we invented it, pretty much, something Nietzsche pins on the Roman Jews and early Christians.

It's a remarkably persistent dead end that's been the cause of ample suffering.

ya need a cite there bud.

quote:


quote:

i reckon theres a disturbing moral equivalence round this issue wit folks like yrself.

Looking at the deeper causes behind things is always more disturbing than a witch hunt, but ultimately less embarassing a few centuries later when history judges the witch hunt harshly and recognizes the voices of reason that were drowned out by the chorus of the vulgar inquisition (usually with a smug assertion that the same has somehow magically ceased to be the norm since then).

Tell me: what's the difference between an aversion to killing and a love of life?

nope witch hunts are plenty disturbing. most folks are interested in tha motivations of these jihadis. dont doubt that at all.

quote:

quote:

you compare two jihadists (least tha older bro was anyhow) that bombed families indescriminately wit tha natural response of tha injured party who want revenge for tha crimes they played no part in creating. may not be to yr liking but that visceral response is least as human as love.

I compare the underlying character, not the actions. Crucial distinction that you seem to be missing.

nah, you drew parallels in action - "dehumanisation" as ya said. ya paralleled tha distinction of dehumanisting vicious mass murders wit folks tha subject of attack wanting revenge.

quote:

quote:

they dehumanised 2 depraved killers, tha killers dehumanised tha society they lived among & lashed out at it in tha most vicious way possible.

As you say, the problem is essentially the same. Keep going on that track, and you'll see the rest of what I mean.

lol i think ya know i was saying tha opposite.

< Message edited by WantsOfTheFlesh -- 4/22/2013 7:40:55 PM >


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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/22/2013 8:48:25 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

No. I'm saying- among other things- that once you start reaching for the term "evil", you've pretty much given up on understanding, and have lost.

But, yeah, sure, if you look around, plenty of people have dehumanized the Boston attackers (terms like "animals", "evil" and so forth abound, along with statements about "don't even want to understand", "should be put down", etc.), just like the Boston attackers no doubt dehumanized their fellow man to be able to cross the line to do what they thought was right (and which, if values were applied universally and reciprocally, would probably be right in an objective sense, if the values chosen are the ones espoused by those that dehumanize the Boston attackers).

These weren't demons, monsters, savages, animals or whatever, any more than the average citizen around them.

They were just men like you or me- indeed, boys- who did what they thought was right.

I'm curious what gave them that impression... aren't you?

Yes. The realisation that 'terrorists' are just ordinary people caught up in extra-ordinary circumstances leads us to the next question - what causes terrorism?

Once again, there's no great secret here. Terrorism doesn't exist in a vacuum. Most of the time, it is not a direct product of ideology or religion. Terrorism is a reaction to a certain set of political economic and/or social circumstances, usually involving a perception that the 'terrorist's' community/country/belief system/religion is under attack.

The most common circumstance is hostile foreign military occupation, far and away the single most efficient trigger of terrorist activity. Belief systems that 'approve' terrorism act as rationalisations after this primary cause. They propose analyses that make sense to the people under attack. They propose 'solutions' that appear rational and effective to people whose community/country/belief system/religion is under attack.

Considering some of the blood curdling responses to the Boston atrocity on these boards, (an attack that would qualify as one of the triggers listed above) it would appear that Aswad's insight - that some people posting here would, in different circumstances, behave the same way - is accurate.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/22/2013 8:50:56 PM >


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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/22/2013 9:19:37 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

vague stuff like that is no answer plus i'm entitled to ask coz ya brought it up.


If "good lives for me and mine, without outside interference" is too vague for you, I think it would be good to reflect on the meaning of life for a while. There's nothing vague about it. Perhaps more familiar terms would be "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". As for your sense of entitlement, I can do little about that, except assure you the entitlement is strictly in your head. I didn't bring up what my goals are, I brought up that they can't be accomplished through terrorism, though I'll note I volunteered them anyway.

quote:

ya need a cite there bud.


No, I don't. This isn't a scientific journal, and I'm not out to prove a point. I've given up on enlightening anyone. I just offer perspectives that align well with the observables and seem to predict outcomes fairly well. If you care to make a counterpoint, feel free to do so. I'll even listen. But if you want cites, you can start by saying what you want a cite for. Nietzsche's claims, you can find in his works. My claim, have a look at history and judge for yourself. Something else, simply be specific, and maybe I'll help you out.

quote:

nope witch hunts are plenty disturbing. most folks are interested in tha motivations of these jihadis. dont doubt that at all.


You didn't answer the question of «what's the difference between an aversion to killing and a love of life?». It's crucial to the point.

Anyway, I was making a comment about the posting in this thread and others, where you'll find plenty of «I don't care» and «I don't want to understand» and «we can't understand» going around. I'm thrilled if that's not representative of the general attitude, but it doesn't change the fact that this attitude has plenty of people subscribing to it.

quote:

nah, you drew parallels in action - "dehumanisation" as ya said. ya paralleled tha distinction of dehumanisting vicious mass murders wit folks tha subject of attack wanting revenge.


No, I parallelled the dehumanization of targets/victims with the dehumanization of criminals/perpetrators.

Which, incidentally, is just a part of the whole package, though an important one.

quote:

lol i think ya know i was saying tha opposite.


You thought you were. Your actual words, though, amounted to "A did X and Y; and B did X and Z", when I'd made the point that X is the common denominator and you'd disputed that it was. Which, then, supports the assertion that you said what I did, while intending to say the opposite. You just didn't catch it and take it to its logical conclusion.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to WantsOfTheFlesh)
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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/22/2013 10:51:32 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

The most common circumstance is hostile foreign military occupation, far and away the single most efficient trigger of terrorist activity.


New occupation or the occupation-like conditions surrounding seperatism (ETA, IRA, etc.). Also, ethnic conflicts, class warfare and so forth. As such, I think you could probably categorize the preludes to several revolutions as terrorism, and perhaps the revolutions themselves. Heck, Meinhof viewed the Holocaust as a response to the coincidence of class and "race" in Germany, which may not be as far-fetched as it sounds. Israel-Palestine is another class/ethnic conflict.

The commonality is the existence of either (a) two or more groups in a resource conflict under shared administration, (b) two or more groups with an entrenched resource disparity, (c) two or more groups with a power disparity that is used by one or more groups to restrict the liberty of one or more other groups. Not all that different from conventional war. The main difference is such that we might take terrorist to mean "underdog".

In this sense, one-off domestic terrorism (I loathe the "lone wolf" designation) is somewhat anomalous in that it involves a single individual perceiving a great wrong (usually an injustice or a restriction of liberty) that must be set right. Often, there is no outlet or viable course of action, other than open conflict, at which point most throw in the towel. A few will, however, sacrifice themselves toward what they see as the greater good, either by symbolic self sacrifice (immolation as a "rage against the machine" thing is a classic example) or by defiantly attacking the superior force with full knowledge that one isolated attack is futile.

Note that the latter has been glorified in American media as long as I've seen any of it. I don't see the supposed trend of glorification of violence as particularly relevant in this regard. That hasn't taken hold, culturally. Going out "in a blaze of glory", however, particularly in the form of last stands and suicidal charges, is a theme that has taken hold culturally, and probably for good reason. Does one bend over and take it? Go out with a whimper? Or go out with a bang?

To two young adults from Dagestan, the answer seems to have been "go out with a bang", even if theirs was little more than a whimper in the scheme of things (at least until the police turned it into a huge bang, thus reinforcing the idea that it's the way to go and giving a real secondary payoff). Maybe they "got" their American peers more than they thought. I have certainly seen that aesthetic reflected in plenty of media from around those parts.

quote:

Belief systems that 'approve' terrorism act as rationalisations after this primary cause. They propose analyses that make sense to the people under attack. They propose 'solutions' that appear rational and effective to people whose community/country/belief system/religion is under attack.


Note the similarity to the far right in the US, or their antecessors in the NSDAP.

quote:

Considering some of the blood curdling responses to the Boston atrocity on these boards, (an attack that would qualify as one of the triggers listed above) it would appear that Aswad's insight - that some people posting here would, in different circumstances, behave the same way - is accurate.


I would like to think most of us would choose to stand for what we believe in, even if that involves the loss of life. One of my main complaints is people decrying it while subscribing to the underlying ethics of it; i.e. being blind to oneself. Another is the complete lack of any debate on what constitutes valid targets. I'm not inherently against the idea of the underdog choosing to fight, rather than perish, certainly. I don't need to be, in order to condemn common terrorism.

In the attacks in Norway, for instance, I'm convinced the attacks were a poor choice of strategy for his goals, even from a completely cynical point of view. What I object first and foremost to, however, are the Utøya shootings. If he blew up the gov't quarter, that's what our own doctrine of war says constitutes a legitimate target, where auxillary casualties are held to be acceptable, if not disporportionate. That's a doctrine the primary targets themselves support, and one enacted by the gov't which represents the auxillary casualties. They also knew they were choosing to work in one of the most attractive military or terrorist targets in the country. As such, I would shrug if he left it at that, ethically speaking. A stupid move, cynically speaking, but a valid one. The outcome is one I would've liked to avoid, one that was obvious from the first moment, but hey, he was my enemy, I don't expect him to bring me hugs and puppies.

The Dagestan fellows, they picked an illegitimate target. Period. No valid targets to which the civilians could have been potentially-acceptable auxillary casualties. The civilians were the intended casualties. Unless they're declaring war, genocidal war, on the entire culture and population, then there's no way to legitimize their choice of targets. McVeigh, by contrast, chose a perfectly legitimate target (based on the information available to him at the time). The Unabomber, too, chose legitimate targets for his objective. 9/11, again, legitimate target (a bit more iffy, but I think it'll fly; pun absolutely not intended).

An analogy. A far throw, but bear with me. We all know spousebeating is undesireable. But beating up the kids, the neighbour or a random passerby after arguing with your spouse seems even more senseless, and even more reprehensible (even if one should be more positively bound to the spouse, it's at least keeping the consequences inside the scope of the original conflict).

To my mind, this is the distinction between "randomly lashing out" and "directed violence", and it's an important one.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/22/2013 11:37:32 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


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As I am learning new information about the older and younger brother, I cannot help but feel a little for the little brother. There may be minimal mitigating factors to be considered, so that maybe he ought not be executed for his alleged crimes.
I would personally revoke his citizenship status, jail him, than send him back to retire/suffer wherever he came from, for his participation in the bombing. M

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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/23/2013 12:11:53 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

Aswad
The main difference is such that we might take terrorist to mean "underdog"
.

Sorry Aswad, but I feel I must take issue with this assertion in your otherwise incisive analysis. The main reason is that this assertion eliminates State terrorism from the discussion.

By ‘State terrorism” I mean more that the usual “State sponsored terrorism” such as Iran’s arming and financing Hezbollah, I mean where the State and its agents are ruling by terror, where power is sourced not in the consent of those governed, but possession of overwhelming military force. Foreign military occupations eg. Israel’s occupation of Palestine, Chinese occupation of Tibet are prime examples of this. Another example would be the US using its drones to terrorise entire populations (eg. North West Pakistan) even though there is no ‘boots on the ground’ military occupation as such.

Wearing the uniform of a State, acting under orders in a recognised National Army, does not entitle one to automatic exemption from the terrorist label. In cases where the State rules by terror, all it means is that one is likely to have a uniform, better equipment than the other lot, get paid for one’s work, operate openly and to undertake one’s allocated tasks without the necessity of any personal or ideological commitment to the cause.

I feel it is important to recognise this aspect of terrorism as it is often the main cause of violent resistance itself. Ironically it is this resistance to State terrorism that is popularly designated as terrorism when, more accurately, it should be labelled as counter-terrorism where ever the label of terrorism is justified.


< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/23/2013 12:12:30 AM >


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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/23/2013 2:27:27 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Unless they're declaring war, genocidal war, on the entire culture and population

They are. The evolution algorithm that binds them leaves them no alternative.


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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/23/2013 4:17:05 AM   
WantsOfTheFlesh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
quote:

ya need a cite there bud.

No, I don't. This isn't a scientific journal, and I'm not out to prove a point. I've given up on enlightening anyone. I just offer perspectives that align well with the observables and seem to predict outcomes fairly well. If you care to make a counterpoint, feel free to do so. I'll even listen. But if you want cites, you can start by saying what you want a cite for. Nietzsche's claims, you can find in his works. My claim, have a look at history and judge for yourself. Something else, simply be specific, and maybe I'll help you out.

actually yes ya do. ya say "I just offer perspectives that align well with the observables and seem to predict outcomes fairly well." thats claiming fact so prove it when someone asks.

ya say you gave up enlightening anyone. well yr behaviour speaks differently coz ya have been preaching here specially since tha terrorist attack on boston & its interesting ya even think ya had some great truths to enlighten tha ignorant american masses.


quote:

quote:

nope witch hunts are plenty disturbing. most folks are interested in tha motivations of these jihadis. dont doubt that at all.

You didn't answer the question of «what's the difference between an aversion to killing and a love of life?». It's crucial to the point.

Anyway, I was making a comment about the posting in this thread and others, where you'll find plenty of «I don't care» and «I don't want to understand» and «we can't understand» going around. I'm thrilled if that's not representative of the general attitude, but it doesn't change the fact that this attitude has plenty of people subscribing to it.

its kinda odd how ya balk at answering what yr motivation is posting here is yet ya demand i answer an abstract question of yr own formulation. a love of life is not tha same as "an aversion to killing". tha 2 can coincide but aint always tha same. if ya want to make yr point just make it.

maybe a few folks said they didn't care. i didnt notice so it wasnt many but dont take that as in any way representative. even tha on the ground media reports from boston often said folks were questioning tha event & not only who did it.


quote:

quote:

nah, you drew parallels in action - "dehumanisation" as ya said. ya paralleled tha distinction of dehumanisting vicious mass murders wit folks tha subject of attack wanting revenge.

No, I parallelled the dehumanization of targets/victims with the dehumanization of criminals/perpetrators.

Which, incidentally, is just a part of the whole package, though an important one.

yup as i said it was tha actions ya paralleled not character, tha action of dehumanising others.


quote:

quote:

lol i think ya know i was saying tha opposite.

You thought you were. Your actual words, though, amounted to "A did X and Y; and B did X and Z", when I'd made the point that X is the common denominator and you'd disputed that it was. Which, then, supports the assertion that you said what I did, while intending to say the opposite. You just didn't catch it and take it to its logical conclusion.

nah ya took a single sentence outta tha context of tha paragraph. in tha paragraph the sentence was used to contrast tha behaviour, not draw up similarities. interesting how ya think you can tell me what i actually meant. i said
quote:

theres no comparison between tha hatred of 2 young guys wanting to blast children & families away partaking in an innocent non military unpoliticised activity & distraught folks labelling them animals in justified outrage. they dehumanised 2 depraved killers, tha killers dehumanised tha society they lived among & lashed out at it in tha most vicious way possible.

see ya took tha last sentence outta tha context. thats dishonest aswad tho it aint as offensive as yr crap bout other folks here.

< Message edited by WantsOfTheFlesh -- 4/23/2013 4:55:11 AM >


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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/23/2013 4:48:18 AM   
WantsOfTheFlesh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
vague stuff like that is no answer plus i'm entitled to ask coz ya brought it up.

If "good lives for me and mine, without outside interference" is too vague for you, I think it would be good to reflect on the meaning of life for a while. There's nothing vague about it. Perhaps more familiar terms would be "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". As for your sense of entitlement, I can do little about that, except assure you the entitlement is strictly in your head. I didn't bring up what my goals are, I brought up that they can't be accomplished through terrorism, though I'll note I volunteered them anyway.

nah lets not bother wit reflections on tha meaning of life for some kinda obfuscation on yr part. not gonna play any games.

ya accused other folks of potentially being terrorists. ya accused folks most outraged at tha incident. thats kinda funny considering how ya minimised tha issue of islamism, said folks were bigoted for suspecting islamists & now ya say oh sure their all normal folks & tha victims are as bad as tha perpetuators for wanting some revenge. thats kinda twisted dude.

fact is bud ya brought up yr own motivations not me http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4429601 so yr refusal to answer wit anything but vague bs when i ask ya speaks loudly.

< Message edited by WantsOfTheFlesh -- 4/23/2013 4:53:00 AM >


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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/23/2013 5:33:13 AM   
leonine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Those who propose torture - as a knee jerk reaction to a single atrocity - need to explain clearly how trashing our rights and freedoms enhances and protects the very same rights and freedoms? Torturing suspects hands terrorism and terrorists a free victory - it will confirm what the terrorists claim, that the West's commitment to human rights and freedom is arbitrary and self-interested. Our rights and freedoms are no longer inalienable - they are reduced to a function of political expediency. Is this what people want?

It is a novel situation. The first 'jihadist' who inflicted suffering on our soil and was actually caught. We don't quite know what to make of it. Our former President legitimised torture and so now it rolls easily off the tongue. We will have it figured out by the next event and live capture.

And yet, you've caught US-born terrorists before and not felt justified in proposing to rip up the Bill of Rights. That's because they were WASPs, so you didn't even call them terrorists, even though they committed the same kind of crimes.

The one decent thing Obama has done yet in this affair, when the commentators were still saying "We can't say for sure this was a terrorist act," meaning "We can't be sure yet it was Muslims," was to say plain and clear that setting off bombs in a public place is an act of terrorism, no ifs or buts.

Of course, knowing what we know now, it's possible he already had intel that the perps were known to be Muslims: so he knew it was a safe call, he wouldn't end up with the Right howling at him for daring to call some Unabomber type "terrorist."

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RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? - 4/23/2013 5:37:04 AM   
WantsOfTheFlesh


Posts: 1226
Joined: 3/3/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: leonine
Of course, knowing what we know now, it's possible he already had intel that the perps were known to be Muslims: so he knew it was a safe call, he wouldn't end up with the Right howling at him for daring to call some Unabomber type "terrorist."

improbable coz tha unabomber wasnt right wing. hes been described as anarcho primitivist, part of tha left tho critical of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-primitivist

< Message edited by WantsOfTheFlesh -- 4/23/2013 5:49:28 AM >


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