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RE: Double talk?? - 6/24/2006 5:31:51 PM   
Kree


Posts: 118
Joined: 6/13/2006
Status: offline 		I think reading anyone's email is wrong.  If someone is lying and cheating, there are plenty of real world clues and hints, without playing amateur detective. 

Someone in this thread made the comment that the person in the other thread had been posting about being abused and facing his lying and cheating for the past two years.  To me, if you have accepted abuse and lying and cheating for two years and you are still sitting on your ass accepting it, you are getting what you deserve.  The victim mentality of "complaining but staying" makes no sense to me.  If someone really knows that a partner is lying and cheating, not to mention being abusive, and they stay, they are enabling the behaviour they are bitching about.

A thread about whether it is proper to invade someone's emails is laughable to me when compared to someone knowing about lying cheating and abuse and chooses to live in the situation.  Yes, I said chooses, because that is exactly what the person does, makes a choice.  I do not want to hear "stayed for the kids" because the kids KNOW there is a problem.  I dont want to hear about economic bondage, there are jobs out there.  There are dozens of excuses for staying, but it only takes one clear moment of self respect to leave.   

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RE: Double talk?? - 6/24/2006 6:01:53 PM   
marieToo


Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kree

I think reading anyone's email is wrong.  If someone is lying and cheating, there are plenty of real world clues and hints, without playing amateur detective. 

Someone in this thread made the comment that the person in the other thread had been posting about being abused and facing his lying and cheating for the past two years.  To me, if you have accepted abuse and lying and cheating for two years and you are still sitting on your ass accepting it, you are getting what you deserve.  The victim mentality of "complaining but staying" makes no sense to me.  If someone really knows that a partner is lying and cheating, not to mention being abusive, and they stay, they are enabling the behaviour they are bitching about.

A thread about whether it is proper to invade someone's emails is laughable to me when compared to someone knowing about lying cheating and abuse and chooses to live in the situation.  Yes, I said chooses, because that is exactly what the person does, makes a choice.  I do not want to hear "stayed for the kids" because the kids KNOW there is a problem.  I dont want to hear about economic bondage, there are jobs out there.  There are dozens of excuses for staying, but it only takes one clear moment of self respect to leave.   



Kree:

It takes more than one clear moment to "leave".  Hell, if thats all it takes, there'd be no ppl in bad relationships. 

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RE: Double talk?? - 6/24/2006 6:27:27 PM   
Kree


Posts: 118
Joined: 6/13/2006
Status: offline 		You left out "self respect".  Quoting me is fine, but at least repeat what I said.

Actually, there will always be people in bad relationships because some can not, and never will, FIND that "one clear moment of self respect".  If self respect is ignored, they can be content to be unhappy and bitch to the world about how badly they are treated.  I suppose that helps. 

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RE: Double talk?? - 6/24/2006 7:03:49 PM   
marieToo


Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kree

You left out "self respect".  Quoting me is fine, but at least repeat what I said.

Actually, there will always be people in bad relationships because some can not, and never will, FIND that "one clear moment of self respect".  If self respect is ignored, they can be content to be unhappy and bitch to the world about how badly they are treated.  I suppose that helps. 


ok...it takes more than one clear moment of self respect to leave.  God forgive me for misquoting you.  My point is still the same. 

How beautiful it must be to live in a shiney little perfect world of absolutes.  I suppose you've never questioned anything, anyone, or wondered in which direction to turn.  And I bet you're the first human being who has never had inner conflict, hesitation, or doubt. 

You seem to have found the holy grail.  You have every cut and dried answer to every word ever spoken.  Makes me wonder why you sound so angry all the time.


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RE: Double talk?? - 6/24/2006 7:09:10 PM   
MistressOfGa


Posts: 2929
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quote:

In a perfect, ideal, prissy little world filled with rainbows and butterflies, its unethical to invade your parnters privacy.  The judgement call  looks so good on paper, so easy to say its wrong, so easy to act like we're above it.  But she's fucked over,  the world isnt perfect, there is no fairytale in riot's life right now,  and sometimes  you do what you have to do to preserve your sanity. Id do the same thing---in a heartbeat---and not have a problem sleeping because of it.


I AM above it. I will not nor will I ever go through someones private property. It is not my way to snoop into other people emails. I have stood in Riotgirls shoes. In fact for 5 years I was stalked across 7 states and then beaten half to death when he found me. But guess what? I survived and am a much stronger person because of it. People get fucked over every day, most times there are no happy endings or fairytale endings, but that is NO excuse to stoop so low as to go through someones wallet, purse, email, letters or safes.


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RE: Double talk?? - 6/24/2006 7:39:00 PM   
marieToo


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From: Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressOfGa

quote:

In a perfect, ideal, prissy little world filled with rainbows and butterflies, its unethical to invade your parnters privacy.  The judgement call  looks so good on paper, so easy to say its wrong, so easy to act like we're above it.  But she's fucked over,  the world isnt perfect, there is no fairytale in riot's life right now,  and sometimes  you do what you have to do to preserve your sanity. Id do the same thing---in a heartbeat---and not have a problem sleeping because of it.


I AM above it. I will not nor will I ever go through someones private property. It is not my way to snoop into other people emails. I have stood in Riotgirls shoes. In fact for 5 years I was stalked across 7 states and then beaten half to death when he found me. But guess what? I survived and am a much stronger person because of it. People get fucked over every day, most times there are no happy endings or fairytale endings, but that is NO excuse to stoop so low as to go through someones wallet, purse, email, letters or safes.



We've all stood in riot girls shoes at one time or another.  Shes been fooled...duped...whatever word you chose to use. 

I guess Im *below* it.  Because if someone ( spouse/significant other/father of my child) spends years lying to me, Im damn well going to find out what they lied to me about and what scheme they have in mind using *my* personal things....ie....photos emails or whatever else they put on the web, so I can protect myself and my child. 

Ive never been tracked down or beaten.  Im not sure if thats luck, caution, or playing detective. But I'll do whatever it takes (short of something illegal) to protect myself and child.  Again, in an ideal world we wouldnt have to resort to such a thing, but if you feel you're being victimized, well, then sometimes those lines have to be crossed. 

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RE: Double talk?? - 6/24/2006 8:03:19 PM   
Kree


Posts: 118
Joined: 6/13/2006
Status: offline 		ok...it takes more than one clear moment of self respect to leave.  God forgive me for misquoting you.  My point is still the same. 

How beautiful it must be to live in a shiney little perfect world of absolutes.  I suppose you've never questioned anything, anyone, or wondered in which direction to turn.  And I bet you're the first human being who has never had inner conflict, hesitation, or doubt. 

You seem to have found the holy grail.  You have every cut and dried answer to every word ever spoken.  Makes me wonder why you sound so angry all the time.

************************************************************************************ No one needs forgiveness for a misquote, it just changes the way someone said something, thus changing the meaning.  If changing the meaning of a comment helps you with your little diatribe and attack, go for it.

I do not live in a world of absolutes, nor a perfect world, but I do live in a world I choose to live in and it is a delightful world because two people make it that way.  I have questioned many things in my life, but after questioning and making decisions, I have accepted my CHOICES and moved along the path of life.  If I have made a bad decision, I recognize it was MY bad decision and have no need to alert the media that someone fucked me over. 

I might very well be the only person on earth, besides my partner, without inner conflicts etc., because I face situations and resolve them on my own.... ooops there is that self respect (and personal responsibility) bullshit again.  Of course there are indeed people on this earth who DO face situations and DO resolve them.  

Actually, I have ideas about the holy grail.  Ever read "Holy Blood, Holy Grail"? 

You do not know me, but if you did, you would realize that anger has no place in my world.  Anger is a worthless emotional response that saps energy and prevents the resolution of issues.  

Read the posts I have made, and you will find logic... not anger.  If I choose to post something that I feel might make someone think, it isn't about anger, it is about trying to help.  I do grow weary of seeing people respond to problems with empathy and "It will be okay", instead of asking people to actually look at, and face their problems.   

I do not know why you chose to flame me for posting a comment asking someone to look at reality instead of the shadow world of "It will be all right", but understand, I don't play the silly games that I've seen on other threads where people do 100's of one line flames at each other.  It's such a waste of bandwidth, and it gives undeserved credibility to the flamers. 

See my thread called "Hand to Hand Combat".  Or better yet, I'll just quote from it.  "Never argue with a pig.  You'll both get dirty and the pig just loves it.

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RE: Double talk?? - 6/24/2006 8:40:45 PM   
Noah


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Joined: 7/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
Oh Merc.....thank you.....thank you....thank you.....thank you

Relationships that have a need for such "personal" spaces are not really built on a very open and honest foundation that is likely to foster any depth of genuine trust are they?


I think the term the clinical professionals and researchers use is "boundaries." And I think there is very broad general agreement among them that boundaries are required for stable, healthy relationships.

It seems to me that in any relationship wherein the parties maintain healthy boundaries--which may or may not in a given case include e-mail privacy--trust is demonstrably present. Party A is trusting party B to maintain this boundary ethically. For instance, A is trusting be not to take unfair advantage of e-mail privacy.

In the no-boundaries relationship it could as well be a lack of trust as trust itself which motivated one or both parties to insist on giving or getting access to every last scrap of that which is traditionally private.

In some large sense we would probably agree to call all stable relationships which are fulfilling to both parties balanced. That said, there is no more a requirement of static, symmetrical balance in this matter (e-mail privacy)than in any other aspect of a power exchange relationship. That is to say that mutually shared passwords are no more "required" than mutually administered beatings.

If you have a relationship which is thriving with all this mandatory disclosure, that's terrific. You are living proof that this approach can work. I'll bet it can work for certain others too. Super.

Someone else who was morally slovenly might hand over all of his passwords as a way of downloading what should be his own moral responsibilities to his partner. It, in short, depends. On lots of stuff.

But please God will the day ever come when we quit hearing around here that "My way is right (or "real") and your way is wrong (or "fake") when the matter at hand boils down to oposing parties finding meaning differently in the same events or actions?

I'm not arguing for moral relativism, which when viewed closely is an incoherent standard. But expressing one's trust by respecting a partner's privacy is no less valid than expressing one's trust by sharing one's passwords.

Construct your personal relationships and express your own trust as you will, and good luck to you. But there are enough people around here on the I'M REAL YOU'RE FAKE bus without respected members like you and Merc & beth risking slippage down that slope of unwarrantable condemnation.

I'm merely addressing the principle of privacy in relationships, by the way, not commenting one way or the other on the soap opera du jour.

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RE: Double talk?? - 6/24/2006 9:05:27 PM   
Wulfchyld


Posts: 2618
Joined: 12/7/2005
Status: offline 		Talk about double talk.

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RE: Double talk?? - 6/24/2006 9:08:49 PM   
Noah


Posts: 1660
Joined: 7/5/2005
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quote:

In a perfect, ideal, prissy little world filled with rainbows and butterflies, its unethical to invade your parnters privacy.  The judgement call  looks so good on paper, so easy to say its wrong, so easy to act like we're above it.  But she's fucked over,  the world isnt perfect, there is no fairytale in riot's life right now,  and sometimes  you do what you have to do to preserve your sanity. Id do the same thing---in a heartbeat---and not have a problem sleeping because of it.


I don't know where this snippet originated but anyone who has the impression that ethical behavior is something you need concern yourself with only when things are settled and unambiguous and your needs are met, well, that person is woefully unclear on the concept.

Yes, it is easy to say a thing is wrong. The hard thing is to make your actions conform. We all make mistakes and we all need forgiveness sometimes but there is nothing prissy about finding the gumption to make the hard choices. You have to find a way through your pain, you don't have to diminish yourself by sacrificing valuable principles and wallpapering your bad behavior with rationalizations

Or do we want to live in a world which encourages: "The rules don't apply to me because somebody else did something wrong."?

My compliments on your fortitude, MistressofGa, primarily because I'm convinced that your concern is not with compliments.

I think a point worth making here is that one can address the wrongness of an action without condemning the actor. On the other side of the coin, it should be possible to empathize even to the point of saying: "Well in that awful situation I might well find myself doing the same thing," without tacking on: "and therefore it is right."

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RE: Double talk?? - 6/25/2006 3:11:47 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline 		The *rules*, as you say, are easier to apply and adhere to when things in our lives aren't challenging.

If I manage to follow my moral compass when times are extremely testing, I'm thankful and gain a little from it. I haven't always managed it and I doubt I WILL always manage it. There are no certainties and I have no idea what situations may occur in the future to test me. I can only HOPE that I'll behave well. I'd very much LIKE to have that certainty, but experience has shown me that I don't always do my best in ALL circumstances. I can have a fair conviction that there are certain things that I'm UNLIKELY to do...but that's all I have.

agirl









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RE: Double talk?? - 6/25/2006 5:48:26 AM   
mew


Posts: 24
Joined: 11/6/2005
Status: offline 		~fast reply~
 
There has been some good advice given in this thread regarding going through anothers email.    Some I agree with, some I don't.   
 
So, this is my take on the entire thing.   I do honestly believe that everyone has a right to a certain amount of privacy, however using that privacy in a sneaky and derogatory manner, is in my opinion, not acceptable.     Master has a thing about his privacy, and feels that there are some things that I am not to know about, or more to the point, what I don't know won't hurt me.    I also have the same privacy granted to me, which I appreciate.   But, I do not post my profile on dating sites, or send loving emails to people in my past, or go off searching for a new Master.  Anything I write here or anywhere else, or any sites that I visit, Master is more than welcome to read.  He has access to my emails if he wants it, I have nothing to hide from him.    He chooses not to do that because he trusts me, and has no reason not too.  I have never done or said anything to cause him suspicion. 
 
I think that when things are done or said that cause another to be suspicious, it all goes out the window.   When a demand is made that you stay out of his business, and that under no circumstances are you to go there, or look there, then I have to wonder why.    If I ask why not, I am told it is none of my business.   Ok, so i am a slave, and maybe it is not my business what he does, or with whom.   So be it.
 
When I looked in his email 2 yrs ago, I was in a bad place emotionally, trying to deal with the dishonesty, and wondering why I wasn't good enough.   I just needed to find proof and I did.   I was punished for it, I was kicked off the computer for 2 weeks, wasn't allowed anywhere near it, and he refused to talk to me for days.
 
I must mention that as far as I know he has never been physically intimate with anyone since I have been here.   Everything has been via email, or posting on a dating site.   At that time, I just couldn't understand why he needed to do that.  Why couldn't he just be friends with his ex's instead of being all lovey dovey in emails.  He isn't lovey dovey with me, so I felt second fiddle. 
 
I have come along way since then.   As I mentioned before, I haven't been through any of his personal things in over 2 yrs.  And I don't care too.   Was I wrong for doing it in the first place, yes, I think so.  However at the time, I felt it was justified.  Would I do it again, not on your life.  
 
I have come to a peaceful place within myself, a place where I maintain my morals, and gain back my dignity.  I focus on myself 100%, and stop being a victim to his escapades.   Whatever he does is his business, and what I do is mine. 
 
I have learned a lot about myself, and that is what is important. 
 
~mew~

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RE: Double talk?? - 6/25/2006 6:02:13 AM   
feastie


Posts: 1793
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

General reply:

I dont think that being involved in an open and honest relationship means that either party gives up a right to any/all personal privacy.  Sometimes even in the best circumstances, people still like to maintain a sense of privacy, whether its a diary, a fantasy, or whatever.  To maintain such, does not equate dishonesty in my eyes. 

However, In riot's case, I can understand having gone through his mail.  There comes a time (and we've all been there, i think) when we're crushed and we need the truth and we need closure,  in order to move on.  If the person who hurt you isnt willing to tell you what they've done behind your back, then she has to get it in by another means.  Anything short of illegal is fair game when a person is left in a spot like this.  In a perfect, ideal, prissy little world filled with rainbows and butterflies, its unethical to invade your parnters privacy.  The judgement call  looks so good on paper, so easy to say its wrong, so easy to act like we're above it.  But she's fucked over,  the world isnt perfect, there is no fairytale in riot's life right now,  and sometimes  you do what you have to do to preserve your sanity. Id do the same thing---in a heartbeat---and not have a problem sleeping because of it.



Personal vindication is an acceptable motive for a wrong doing?  Two wrongs make a right?  Because I suspect you of doing things behind my back excuses the things I do behind your back (breaking your password and reading your email?).


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RE: Double talk?? - 6/25/2006 6:04:26 AM   
mew


Posts: 24
Joined: 11/6/2005
Status: offline 		~fast reply~
 
I wanted to say one more thing in response to something feastie said.
 
I was not bitching and complaining, I was simply asking why the contrast in advice about snooping in anothers email.    As for you stating that I was acting like a 12 yr old, well that is your opinion and your entitled to it. 
 
Now, I can appreciate the value in the statement, " ignorance is bliss." 
 
~mew~

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RE: Double talk?? - 6/25/2006 6:23:55 AM   
feastie


Posts: 1793
Joined: 6/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mew

I didn't want to highjack riotgirl's thread, so I am posting here in a new one. 
 
It seems to me there is a lot of double talk going on here, regarding going through your Master's email. 
 
I have to ask how a Master breaks your trust?   If he does it in front of you, is he not being honest?    If he does it behind your back, how would you know?  
 
Everyone told me it was "just wrong to go through your Master's email", yet everyone is telling her, "bravo".   
 
Either I am just plain stupid, or I am having a major brain fart this morning, because I really don't get it.    If you sense something isn't right in the relationship, don't you owe it to yourself to find out the truth if your not getting it from Master?   
 
I think many here are giving mixed advice.
 
~mew~


Translates to, "Ya'll didn't say that to meeeeeeeeeee, it's not fairrrrrrrrrrrrrr"

Yup, 12, whining and bitching. 

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RE: Double talk?? - 6/25/2006 6:29:07 AM   
mew


Posts: 24
Joined: 11/6/2005
Status: offline 		well I am happy to see you have nominated yourself to forum police.  
As I stated before, your entitled to your childish opinion. 
 
I am sorry that you feel that way though, because I really like being 12 again.  :)

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RE: Double talk?? - 6/25/2006 6:46:51 AM   
twicehappy


Posts: 2706
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Well no. I didn't comment on the other thread...and I don't know exactly what she is doing. I also didn't say whether I thought it was right or wrong. Those of you who are newer to the CM boards are most likely not aware that Riot has been posting for the last two years now about how this man has been abusive to her and her child and how he has a looooong history of lying and cheating.

I'm not saying that any of that rationalizes anything. Just trying to give a perspective as to why some posters may be responding the way they have.


Thank you erin, i was getting ready to post this exact thing.

Also i have had a lot of offline contact with riotgirl and there is more to the story that i will not relate on here except to say she was badly wronged.

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RE: Double talk?? - 6/25/2006 7:16:35 AM   
MistressOfGa


Posts: 2929
Status: offline
quote:

Also i have had a lot of offline contact with riotgirl and there is more to the story that i will not relate on here except to say she was badly wronged.


Hi Twicehappy,
I have to say in response to this, that we posted our answers to the information that was given, not to any other knowledge not brought to our attention. My answers still stand in my post to her and my post to Mew. But thank you for letting us know this. Please let her know that she is not alone. If she has you as a friend than the world can't be all bad :)


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RE: Double talk?? - 6/25/2006 8:24:55 AM   
Kree


Posts: 118
Joined: 6/13/2006
Status: offline 		mew

Two things you posted stuck in my mind.

One, you were told, "what you don't know won't hurt you".  I find that to be hurtful on its face.  That type of comment would immediately make one suspicious, which is exactly what it did to you. 

Two, part of your punishment was enforced silence.  To me, that wasn't as much punishing you as it was avoiding you.  He knew he was caught and he cut off communication as an escape route.  My idea of punishment is to communicate what I feel needs to be corrected, allow an explanation, define the punishment, then carry it out.  Once those steps have been taken, the offense is past and forgotten.  In this situation, you were wrong to "snoop", but you were also placed in a situation where his actions and his lack of communication created doubts in your mind that he could not answer without admitting his actions. 

Obviously, as we see in most threads here, we have heard one side of the story, but in this situation, if you have accurately portrayed his actions, why would you wish to stay in the situation?  You say that you have found a place inside and what you do is your business and what he does is his.  Perhaps that is fine for both of you, but how can a relationship without trust and sharing be worth living? 

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Double talk?? - 6/26/2006 3:45:03 AM   
mew


Posts: 24
Joined: 11/6/2005
Status: offline 		Kree,
 
I could not have worded what you said any more perfectly.   I am amazed at your ability to take my thoughts right out of my head and put them into words so elegantly.  
 
This relationship is worth living at the moment for several reasons.  
One, taking myself out of the gene pool is not an option.
Two, He is a good person, and he is not physically abusive, ( although I wish he would bring out the crop or flogger).  
Third, I need to finish college and get my degree.   It has been mentioned before that I move out, live with a friend, or rent a room on campus.   Unfortunately this is easier said than done in my case.   I have no job at the moment, and have no car, and own nothing except the clothes on my back.   I am under enough stress as it is, and I don't need to add to it, by putting myself out there with nothing. 
 
Yes, I have chosen to stay here, and probably have no right to come here and complain, so for that forgive me.      Even though I am just a slave, I am human, and I do have feelings, and no matter how hard I attempt to detach from the current situation, there are still times when things get under my skin.  
 
With that said, there may come a time when I am more stable, that I will move on. 

~mew~

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Profile   Post #: 60
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