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The 2nd amendment. So when do you ? - 4/27/2013 11:07:35 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline 		We've been reading and hearing ad nauseum about how we simply must be able to keep our guns and our gun rights now even to the point where universal background checks are too much of a burden upon that right.

Historically, politically and sociologically those who feel that way will tell you and also what has been ad nauseum, we need this right to protect us from the govt. I will not source this as it is something that has been in our national dialogue seems forever.

So here it is gun keepers...just when do you start shooting ? I mean that's what guns are for...shooting. Presumably we need these guns for just that and to protect us from govt. Ok, so when do you start shooting police ? When do you start shooting say, the NG or the US Army ?

I submit to you that our guns rights afford us no such freedom or protection. At no time will your right to keep arms, protect you from the big, bad govt.

Few in this debate ever seem to really want to actually think about the actual practice and use of these guns for just such a so-called protection.

What say you ?
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RE: The 2nd amendment. So when do you ? - 4/27/2013 12:14:22 PM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

So here it is gun keepers...just when do you start shooting ? I mean that's what guns are for...shooting.



When the range master says the field is clear.


... protect us from govt.

Do you have a fire extinguisher? If so, when do you plan on using it? Do you seek out big bad fires to use your extinguisher on?
If you haven't used it yet, why do you need it?



Yes, I'm mocking you.




< Message edited by Yachtie -- 4/27/2013 12:15:42 PM >

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RE: The 2nd amendment. So when do you ? - 4/27/2013 1:35:35 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline 		I think you will find that people want evolution and they are growing and coming to know and understand the hosue of cards and fraud much faster than the corruption of the last 200 years can be cleaned up number one, that, and the powers that be seem to insist on pushing their increasingly oppressive agenda even further.

Like most political arguments its all in the framing and most often a play on words such that the right to arms is not a right to own an arm but the right to self protection using the tools of the time.

They do not have the authority to look into any ones private background except by probable cause, nor do they have the authority to hold private records for that purpose.

So even setting aside yatchies bullseye example I am not sure where you can justify that.








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RE: The 2nd amendment. So when do you ? - 4/27/2013 1:55:31 PM   
slvemike4u


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From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

So here it is gun keepers...just when do you start shooting ? I mean that's what guns are for...shooting.



When the range master says the field is clear.


... protect us from govt.

Do you have a fire extinguisher? If so, when do you plan on using it? Do you seek out big bad fires to use your extinguisher on?
If you haven't used it yet, why do you need it?



Yes, I'm mocking you.




Doing a shit ass job of it too

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RE: The 2nd amendment. So when do you ? - 4/27/2013 3:18:37 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

So here it is gun keepers...just when do you start shooting ? I mean that's what guns are for...shooting.



When the range master says the field is clear.

... protect us from govt.

Do you have a fire extinguisher? If so, when do you plan on using it? Do you seek out big bad fires to use your extinguisher on?
If you haven't used it yet, why do you need it?

Yes, I'm mocking you.



LOL

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RE: The 2nd amendment. So when do you ? - 4/27/2013 3:51:10 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline 		Suffice it to say that there is no validity at all to the idea, even the concept of the people requiring any kind of governmentally sanctioned right to keep arms in order to...protect them or society as a whole from the power of the govt.

Never has and never will.

For example, the Whiskey Rebellion as it is called was never an armed rebellion. (approx. 500 armed men attacked the local tax inspectors home) The 'defeat' of the tax and it subsequent repeal (T. Jefferson) was accomplished by society simply not going along with the feds.

Nobody would collect the tax, juries wouldn't convict tax avoiders. So the right to keep arms to keep the feds at bay, never played a role.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 4/27/2013 4:15:33 PM >

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RE: The 2nd amendment. So when do you ? - 4/27/2013 5:22:37 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		The simple presence of the firearms serves as a deterrent to ever reaching a place of needing to fire them, much as the sound of the action on a pump shotgun dramatically reduces the odds you'll need to pull the trigger.

And I'm joining the fire extinguisher mock.



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RE: The 2nd amendment. So when do you ? - 4/27/2013 5:40:24 PM   
cloudboy


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Joined: 12/14/2005
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quote:

I submit to you that our guns rights afford us no such freedom or protection. At no time will your right to keep arms, protect you from the big, bad govt.


Well stated, except this idea plays well in Hollywood movies. Gun nuts are irrational. Weaponry for them is fetish, extension of paranoia, fantasy object of protection from (insert the threat), etc. Also what's in play is the idea that the GOV cannot push them around on this issue, the motive maybe being more anti-government regulation than pro gun beliefs.

The question you state is a good one: when do you start shooting? Then the next question for me is, what kind of gun do you need to protect yourself and your home?

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 4/27/2013 5:48:19 PM >

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RE: The 2nd amendment. So when do you ? - 4/27/2013 5:41:32 PM   
subrob1967


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I dunno guys, our Vice President says you only need to shoot two rounds off into the air with your shot gun, never mind where the pellets come down...And if that doesn't scare em off, just shoot blindly through the door and pray you don't hit your teenager that forgot his or her keys.

< Message edited by subrob1967 -- 4/27/2013 5:42:12 PM >

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RE: The 2nd amendment. So when do you ? - 4/27/2013 6:04:58 PM   
MasterCaneman


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Joined: 3/21/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

I submit to you that our guns rights afford us no such freedom or protection. At no time will your right to keep arms, protect you from the big, bad govt.


Well stated, except this idea plays well in Hollywood movies. Gun nuts are irrational. Weaponry for them is fetish, extension of paranoia, fantasy object of protection from (insert the threat), etc. Also what's in play is the idea that the GOV cannot push them around on this issue, the motive maybe being more anti-government regulation than pro gun beliefs.

The question you state is a good one: when do you start shooting? Then the next question for me is, what kind of gun do you need to protect yourself and your home?

When? When they come to take them, of course. What do I need? Whatever I happen to possess at that moment in time. And weapons (firearms) are not a fetish for me. They are a hobby, for a period of time in my life I carried one as part of my employment, and because I can possess them.

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RE: The 2nd amendment. So when do you ? - 4/27/2013 6:49:12 PM   
Darkfeather


Posts: 1142
Joined: 3/13/2007
Status: offline 		Screw that shotgun rack... When they hear the rotor motors revving up on this baby, they run for the next state. That and the next door neighbor's house blows up, several trees, a few parked cars, and that strip-mall half a mile away. That's my idea of home defense

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RE: The 2nd amendment. So when do you ? - 4/27/2013 6:53:31 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

The simple presence of the firearms serves as a deterrent to ever reaching a place of needing to fire them, much as the sound of the action on a pump shotgun dramatically reduces the odds you'll need to pull the trigger.

And I'm joining the fire extinguisher mock.

This is my point. The govt. comes to take your guns. Soon as they hear that shotgun pumped, some sniper takes you out and...likely in few seconds.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
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RE: The 2nd amendment. So when do you ? - 4/27/2013 6:55:13 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

I submit to you that our guns rights afford us no such freedom or protection. At no time will your right to keep arms, protect you from the big, bad govt.


Well stated, except this idea plays well in Hollywood movies. Gun nuts are irrational. Weaponry for them is fetish, extension of paranoia, fantasy object of protection from (insert the threat), etc. Also what's in play is the idea that the GOV cannot push them around on this issue, the motive maybe being more anti-government regulation than pro gun beliefs.

The question you state is a good one: when do you start shooting? Then the next question for me is, what kind of gun do you need to protect yourself and your home?

From society...not much but a personal decision. From the govt,...there aren't any big and powerful enough.

(in reply to cloudboy)
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RE: The 2nd amendment. So when do you ? - 4/27/2013 6:56:31 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkfeather

Screw that shotgun rack... When they hear the rotor motors revving up on this baby, they run for the next state. That and the next door neighbor's house blows up, several trees, a few parked cars, and that strip-mall half a mile away. That's my idea of home defense


Oh really...you think ?

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RE: The 2nd amendment. So when do you ? - 4/27/2013 7:45:31 PM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

I submit to you that our guns rights afford us no such freedom or protection. At no time will your right to keep arms, protect you from the big, bad govt.


Well stated, except this idea plays well in Hollywood movies. Gun nuts are irrational. Weaponry for them is fetish, extension of paranoia, fantasy object of protection from (insert the threat), etc. Also what's in play is the idea that the GOV cannot push them around on this issue, the motive maybe being more anti-government regulation than pro gun beliefs.

The question you state is a good one: when do you start shooting? Then the next question for me is, what kind of gun do you need to protect yourself and your home?

From society...not much but a personal decision. From the govt,...there aren't any big and powerful enough.


Now if someone would just let those insurgents in the Middle East know this. *sigh*


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RE: The 2nd amendment. So when do you ? - 4/28/2013 11:22:40 AM   
cloudboy


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O, that's totally protected by the 2nd Amemdment.

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RE: The 2nd amendment. So when do you ? - 4/28/2013 1:56:07 PM   
youdneverknowit


Posts: 26
Joined: 10/21/2012
Status: offline 		I'm a former Marine Corps rifleman. I am probably considered a survivalist/prepper. I own the weapons I do for the simple reason that they give me a sense of peace at night. There are bad guys in this world and some of them operate individially, others in gangs, but most in government. I can clearly see that any government with an unarmed citizenry could psychologically evaluate candidates for law enforcement careers, choose the bullies who will take every order and say "Yes Sir." There are people who believe might makes right and these sort don't understand a code of morality in a civil sense. Many of them are already cops.

So when do we? My opinion is to first of all fight from a defensive position. Don't go high port on Main with a .223 and expect to accomplish your agenda. But perhaps more importantly, make sure you count the cost. You must be willing to die.

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RE: The 2nd amendment. So when do you ? - 4/28/2013 2:02:23 PM   
epiphiny43


Posts: 688
Joined: 10/20/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkfeather

Screw that shotgun rack... When they hear the rotor motors revving up on this baby, they run for the next state. That and the next door neighbor's house blows up, several trees, a few parked cars, and that strip-mall half a mile away. That's my idea of home defense


Drinking your own koolaid? This attitude and known equipment may well get a carefully placed .22 round in the back of your head by concerned and combat experienced neighbors with children and other loved ones living within range. Taking survival into one's own hands is not a unilateral decision by only one person. Everyone in the community has this option. Being scary gives some a feeling of personal safety, it also puts a big round target over your vital organs.

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RE: The 2nd amendment. So when do you ? - 4/28/2013 4:13:50 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

We've been reading and hearing ad nauseum about how we simply must be able to keep our guns and our gun rights now even to the point where universal background checks are too much of a burden upon that right.


Actually it is the government collecting and data housing that information that most actually have a problem with. Just recently the Dept of Revenue made requests to Missouri asking for information that their Dept of Motor Vehicles had on those having a CCW. The environment of paranoia concerning the information that our Fed Government requests does seem to delve into the realm of privacy issues.

I have no big issues with enhanced background checks, and I am even a proponent of gun courses to own a hand gun, but I also am an opponent of the Fed Government warehousing information that they do not need.

quote:


Historically, politically and sociologically those who feel that way will tell you and also what has been ad nauseum, we need this right to protect us from the govt. I will not source this as it is something that has been in our national dialogue seems forever.


That is one of the reasons I have seen, but there are others. You cannot take and simplify it to just that. Yes in the event that something happened that a large enough group of citizens felt they needed to protect their property with firearms, or fight a guerrilla war to do something, the right to bear arms is necessary. There is also the right to protect your person, those you care about and your home. There is the right to enjoy hunting, target practice or anything else legally attached to gun ownership. There are gun owners in varying degrees of opinion on gun control. Not a simple thing at all.

quote:


So here it is gun keepers...just when do you start shooting ? I mean that's what guns are for...shooting. Presumably we need these guns for just that and to protect us from govt. Ok, so when do you start shooting police ? When do you start shooting say, the NG or the US Army ?


There are already instances of those that used weapons to defend themselves, though most were killed and others imprisoned. They still did what they felt was right to defend against what they saw as illegal and improper use of power. One of those cases is Ruby Ridge, I will let you research it or any others if you like.

There is a case out of Atlanta where an elderly woman was in her home. There was a banging on her door and then it was kicked in. It was verified that the police did not announce themselves and she opened up on them. She wounded a couple and I believe was shot and killed herself. It was later discovered the police had obtained the warrant through lying.

quote:


I submit to you that our guns rights afford us no such freedom or protection. At no time will your right to keep arms, protect you from the big, bad govt.


It does allow for someone to attempt to preserve their rights though. I submit that any right that you do not defend or prepared to defend, is not actually a right but a privilege given to you by the government.

quote:


Few in this debate ever seem to really want to actually think about the actual practice and use of these guns for just such a so-called protection.

What say you ?



I say what I always have. Better background checks with a tie in to a mental health database, but the information just be a flag or no flag, there should be no detail unless you go to the authorities and appeal it.

There should be gun safety classes and licensing for certain guns.

The people in general should have a reasonable way to acquire firearms without them being severely limited like many propose.

When is it time to use deadly force against the government? When your home is being illegally or unjustly invaded or your life is being illegally or unjustly threatened.


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RE: The 2nd amendment. So when do you ? - 4/28/2013 5:15:57 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		There is another dangerous thing this country is awash in.






Attachment (1)

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