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RE: The 2nd amendment. So when do you ? - 4/28/2013 7:36:16 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I submit that any right that you do not defend or prepared to defend, is not actually a right but a privilege given to you by the government.


I would add that you don't have any rights you don't also have the right to enforce.

Which is one of the few nice things in the upcoming revisions to the laws in Norway: the addition of a clause that allows you to enforce your own rights with "appropriate use of force" if it would be unreasonable to wait for the justice system to take care of it. Obviously, it's still not perfect, and if you try anything fancy, you'll probably have to defend it in court, but it's getting somewhere, at least.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
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RE: The 2nd amendment. So when do you ? - 4/28/2013 8:05:01 PM   
TricklessMagic


Posts: 248
Joined: 9/14/2009
Status: offline 		Ask the Koreans in California during the Rodney King Riots, ask the folks of suburbia after Katrina in Baton Rouge, Lafayette, and New Orleans.

There are those who believe self-defense is immoral and wrong, I think you are one of them by the read of your post. There are many that people should merely submit to the will of the government no matter its will rather than have the mere hope of resistance, again I think you are one of them.

If the government came for my guns, I doubt they would find many of them, and even if they did, I'd make more. And I'd make more ammo. Yes it'd be time consuming and a pain in the ass but it can be done. I'm one of the few guys at the range shooting black powder 7.62x39 (had to tweak the recoil springs) and .243 Winchester. I also know how to make improved forms of Cordite, not IMR per say, not by a long shot, but still an improvement on Cordite which will function in Chau Chauts, most bolt action rifles, lever action, some semi-autos, etc. etc..

There are those who see the desire of independence and liberty as evil. To be able to do things others can't, is evil in some people's eyes. To have the confidence, desire for responsibility, capability, of freedom and liberty, is evil in some people's eyes. Those eyes belong to certain elements of an anti-gun, anti-American, herd of lemmings who happily go ignorantly into the march of disarmament while avoiding the challenge of exceptionalism as they decry the exceptionalism of others. As they blame those who have sweated and sacrificed for their success, demanding their "fair share" for a thing they did nothing to build and took no chance to make.

Arms, guns, mean many things to many people. To some a tradition, to some a hope, but to those who hate liberty, exceptionalism, and freedom, it represents a threat. A threat they can't stand to have exist. As it stands antithetical to their perverse cravings for subjugation and victimization, maybe not of themselves, but of others.

Besides guns are terrible for delivering justice to a tyrannical government and support proletariat. Too finite, too easy to dismiss. No there are so many far more effective means and methods for the guilty. The destroyers of liberty and freedom. The murder craven scum.




quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

We've been reading and hearing ad nauseum about how we simply must be able to keep our guns and our gun rights now even to the point where universal background checks are too much of a burden upon that right.

Historically, politically and sociologically those who feel that way will tell you and also what has been ad nauseum, we need this right to protect us from the govt. I will not source this as it is something that has been in our national dialogue seems forever.

So here it is gun keepers...just when do you start shooting ? I mean that's what guns are for...shooting. Presumably we need these guns for just that and to protect us from govt. Ok, so when do you start shooting police ? When do you start shooting say, the NG or the US Army ?

I submit to you that our guns rights afford us no such freedom or protection. At no time will your right to keep arms, protect you from the big, bad govt.

Few in this debate ever seem to really want to actually think about the actual practice and use of these guns for just such a so-called protection.

What say you ?



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RE: The 2nd amendment. So when do you ? - 4/28/2013 8:05:33 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

This is my point. The govt. comes to take your guns. Soon as they hear that shotgun pumped, some sniper takes you out and...likely in few seconds.


This comment proves you have no idea what form rebellion would take.

(in reply to MrRodgers)
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RE: The 2nd amendment. So when do you ? - 4/28/2013 8:08:21 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

If the government came for my guns,

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know how often this has actually happened in U.S. history?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to TricklessMagic)
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RE: The 2nd amendment. So when do you ? - 4/28/2013 8:13:05 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

If the government came for my guns,

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know how often this has actually happened in U.S. history?

The same question with the same answer could have been asked in 1816 Russia.
So it prooves nothing.
Another way of making your point is don't worry about being tied to the track, that train has never run over anyone before.

(in reply to dcnovice)
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RE: The 2nd amendment. So when do you ? - 4/28/2013 8:15:24 PM   
TricklessMagic


Posts: 248
Joined: 9/14/2009
Status: offline 		Coming for guns take many forms. When the law is used to penalize those who don't turn over their guns, then it is the government coming for guns. If you can agree with that, then I can give you many examples. California, New York, Massachusetts, D.C., Louisiana (Hurricane Katrina), just to name a few, a history of gun grabbing.

Now if it's a question of cops or troops being used to "seize" guns, there hasn't been any big examples of law abiding folks being targeted, but many in the Democratic party have demanded such a thing happen in the future, confiscation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

If the government came for my guns,

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know how often this has actually happened in U.S. history?


(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: The 2nd amendment. So when do you ? - 4/28/2013 8:17:48 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

If the government came for my guns,

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know how often this has actually happened in U.S. history?

The same question with the same answer could have been asked in 1816 Russia.
So it prooves nothing.
Another way of making your point is don't worry about being tied to the track, that train has never run over anyone before.


Clever deflection, Bama, but you haven't actually answered the question. Since 1776, how often has the U.S. government come for people's guns?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: The 2nd amendment. So when do you ? - 4/28/2013 8:20:35 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Coming for guns take many forms. When the law is used to penalize those who don't turn over their guns, then it is the government coming for guns. If you can agree with that, then I can give you many examples. California, New York, Massachusetts, D.C., Louisiana (Hurricane Katrina), just to name a few, a history of gun grabbing.

Examples would be great, thanks.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to TricklessMagic)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: The 2nd amendment. So when do you ? - 4/28/2013 8:21:56 PM   
TricklessMagic


Posts: 248
Joined: 9/14/2009
Status: offline 		To be clear, you want examples of when the law has been used to penalize people if they didn't turn over their guns?

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Coming for guns take many forms. When the law is used to penalize those who don't turn over their guns, then it is the government coming for guns. If you can agree with that, then I can give you many examples. California, New York, Massachusetts, D.C., Louisiana (Hurricane Katrina), just to name a few, a history of gun grabbing.

Examples would be great, thanks.


(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: The 2nd amendment. So when do you ? - 4/28/2013 8:28:27 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

To be clear, you want examples of when the law has been used to penalize people if they didn't turn over their guns?

Please. Or of anything else that strikes you as the government's taking folks guns away.

I'm honestly curious about how often and where this happens.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to TricklessMagic)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: The 2nd amendment. So when do you ? - 4/28/2013 8:42:33 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

If the government came for my guns,

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know how often this has actually happened in U.S. history?

The same question with the same answer could have been asked in 1816 Russia.
So it prooves nothing.
Another way of making your point is don't worry about being tied to the track, that train has never run over anyone before.


Clever deflection, Bama, but you haven't actually answered the question. Since 1776, how often has the U.S. government come for people's guns?

Actually if you mean the massive confiscation of firearms my "clever defection" did answer that question if you knew enough about history to understand it.
On a smaller scale ther is the post Katrina confiscations.
The New York state registration of guns that look kind of like assault weapons followed by their confiscation.
The same in California.
Morton Groves temporary ban of handguns.
The D C ban that continued untill the supreme court stopped it.
You sound like the guy standing a the base of Vesuvious saying the has never been an eruption in Italy.

(in reply to dcnovice)
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RE: The 2nd amendment. So when do you ? - 4/28/2013 8:57:04 PM   
TricklessMagic


Posts: 248
Joined: 9/14/2009
Status: offline 		This will give you a good power point covering New York, http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=new%20york%20gun%20confiscation%201991&source=web&cd=8&cad=rja&ved=0CGUQFjAH&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.keepandbeararms.com%2Fppt%2Frega.ppt&ei=pup9UfXvHIvu9ATy5oCYAw&usg=AFQjCNGzhBxO6Q-SH1DGBa3DhnQALfATCw&bvm=bv.45645796,d.eWU

This also covers New York and explains where registries can lead to http://www.thegunzone.com/rkba/rkba-12.html

In California, the SKS rifle was legislated to be required to be turned in if it had certain features such as allowing the use of detachable magazines. The Attorney General of California ordered the guns to be turned in for a small amount of money or face prosecution, the government had a registry list of the owners.

Chicago created an arbitrary licensing setup to own handguns in Chicago and then chose not to reissue licenses to certain folks with no criminal history as a de facto seizure because if you still had the handgun, you'd go to jail if caught with it. Granted that didn't stop one of Obama's buddies from having an unlicensed pistol with which he killed himself, http://reason.com/archives/2009/11/23/gun-control-chicago-style.

D.C. gun ban, those who legally owned guns before the ban had to get rid of them or face criminal prosecution.

In New Orleans, after Hurricane Katrina http://godfatherpolitics.com/9239/gun-confiscation-during-hurricane-katrina-gives-us-picture-of-road-ahead/ a Democratic Mayor ordered the disarmament and confiscation of firearms.

So that's a few right there.


(in reply to dcnovice)
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RE: The 2nd amendment. So when do you ? - 4/28/2013 9:26:37 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		The term 'taking away' implies being allowed to have them in the first place. Much of the history of gun control is based on not letting minorities have them to begin with, as in the 'may issue' permit situation across the US until very recently.

And I didn't see anyone mention that the WWII internment of Japanese American citizens involved the seizure of their firearms.

So you've had your examples, what exactly is your point?


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

To be clear, you want examples of when the law has been used to penalize people if they didn't turn over their guns?

Please. Or of anything else that strikes you as the government's taking folks guns away.

I'm honestly curious about how often and where this happens.



_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to dcnovice)
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RE: The 2nd amendment. So when do you ? - 4/28/2013 10:52:52 PM   
dcnovice


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Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

what exactly is your point?

The notion of the government's coming to take away folks' guns surfaces often in our gun threads.

I was curious about whether it was rooted in history.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: The 2nd amendment. So when do you ? - 4/28/2013 11:01:10 PM   
dcnovice


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Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

Actually if you mean the massive confiscation of firearms my "clever defection" did answer that question if you knew enough about history to understand it.

When and where was this "massive confiscation"?


quote:

You sound like the guy standing a the base of Vesuvious saying the has never been an eruption in Italy.

Ah. From deflection to ad hominem slams. I'm intrigued by how a simple, factual question seems to have perturbed you so much. As for Vesuvius, it has erupted repeatedly, so I doubt "the guy standing at the base" exists outside your imagination.


_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: The 2nd amendment. So when do you ? - 4/29/2013 9:18:49 AM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		No, that was your question, not the point you were trying to make after having the question answered repeatedly.

So now that you know exactly what you knew before you asked, namely that it rarely happens to small groups, what exactly is your point?

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

what exactly is your point?

The notion of the government's coming to take away folks' guns surfaces often in our gun threads.

I was curious about whether it was rooted in history.



< Message edited by Powergamz1 -- 4/29/2013 9:19:07 AM >

_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to dcnovice)
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RE: The 2nd amendment. So when do you ? - 4/29/2013 9:34:37 AM   
dcnovice


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quote:

No, that was your question, not the point you were trying to make after having the question answered repeatedly.

I wasn't trying to make a point. I was seeking information.


quote:

So now that you know exactly what you knew before you asked,

Actually, thanks to folks' responses, I know more than I did before I asked.


quote:

namely that it rarely happens to small groups,

I'm not sure what you mean here.


quote:

what exactly is your point?

Again, I didn't have a point, since I lacked key information. Hence my question.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: The 2nd amendment. So when do you ? - 4/29/2013 9:59:31 AM   
subrob1967


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Status: offline 		FR

I don't personally know of any cops who would follow the federal government and try to confiscate our neighbor's firearms. The men and women I know would surrender the badge and join their neighbors.

I have a suspicion that a lot of the people serving in the military would refuse those orders as well. The oath requires protecting the Constitution, not the person giving illegal orders.

_____________________________

http://www.extra-life.org/

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RE: The 2nd amendment. So when do you ? - 4/29/2013 4:38:07 PM   
LizDeluxe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
At no time will your right to keep arms, protect you from the big, bad govt.


As long as the gun control advocates limit the type and capacity of arms we may own, you are correct. Your point is only valid as long as we are severely restricted in what we may own. Yet, you still want to take even those guns away from us.

Outlaw automatic weapons. Done. Next, outlaw high capacity magazines. Then outlaw semi-automatic weapons. Leave us with nothing but revolvers and then say "How are you going to effectively fight the government with a revolver?".

That's one savvy argument, yes sir.



_____________________________

While is there no liberal talk radio? There are at least five conservative talk radio shows available over the air every day in the radio market I live in. Why does the liberal message fail to attract listeners?

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RE: The 2nd amendment. So when do you ? - 4/29/2013 9:01:00 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

And I didn't see anyone mention that the WWII internment of Japanese American citizens involved the seizure of their firearms.


Great example, on many levels.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 4/29/2013 9:07:25 PM >

(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 40
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