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RE: Ronald Reagan betrayed the Republicans!!! - 5/3/2013 1:49:21 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
As I listed out, the first 2 are really the only "intolerant" ones, but that's solely due to pretty much every monotheistic religion, isn't it? Even the 2nd is commanding to not have any "thing" be more important in our life than God. Even allowing for #2 to be intolerant, 20% of the "rules" make it a "monument to intolerance?" If more people lived according to the 10 commandments - allowing for their own personal choice in who or what is defined as God in the first commandment - I'm willing to bet we'd be a much more civilized and peaceful society.

The first one in intolerant of every other religion on the face of the planet. Period.
There are plenty of religions that don't have any such notion similar to the first commandment. Some examples - Hinduism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Zoroastrianism.
The other major religion in the world that has something similar to the first commandment is.....you guessed it....Islam.
And the first or second commandment (depending on how you define the commandments) prohibits any kind of idol worship - a major part of religions like Hinduism, Buddhism and Shintoism (all of which are much older in origin than either Christianity or Islam.
How would you feel if a Muslim-American judge put a list of Sharia law in the court room behind him, or on the public land in front of the court house? How welcomed would you feel?


So, we have Christianity, Judaism and Islam - 54% of the world, according to the wiki I linked - that have the 10 Commandments. Now, if a judge were to apply the 10 commandments and not US law, that would be a completely different story. But, determining how you define your "God," the first commandment to not worship any other as God, well, that's not exactly intolerant, is it? "God" has not been defined. You still have the right and opportunity to do that for yourself.

Sharia law, imo, is counter to equality of Man. I would not appreciate a monument to Sharia law, but as long as Sharia law wasn't the determinant of guilt/innocence, US law being that determinant, I wouldn't really give a rat's ass about it.

So, we are down to 80% of the 10 commandments really aren't all that intolerant. How is that a "monument to intolerance?"

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Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Ronald Reagan betrayed the Republicans!!! - 5/3/2013 2:51:14 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I still want to know what Commandments 11-15 were.


quote:

ORIGINAL: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments#How_many_Commandments.3F
Depending on whether you are Jewish, Roman Catholic, or Protestant, the numbering sequence of the Commandments varies. Basically it depends on how you cut up the first two and the last two, but the effect is that there are somewhere between nine and eleven commandments depending on where the denominations split them. In fact, if you analyze them closely you can get up to twenty five,[7] but the Bible says there are only ten - so they must be shoe-horned into that number.


quote:

ORIGINAL: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr10cisl.htm
8-11: Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant [male slave], nor thy maidservant [female slave], nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates....

12: Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

13: Thou shalt not kill.

14: Thou shalt not commit adultery.

15: Thou shalt not steal.

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Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Ronald Reagan betrayed the Republicans!!! - 5/3/2013 7:03:00 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I still want to know what Commandments 11-15 were.

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments#How_many_Commandments.3F
Depending on whether you are Jewish, Roman Catholic, or Protestant, the numbering sequence of the Commandments varies. Basically it depends on how you cut up the first two and the last two, but the effect is that there are somewhere between nine and eleven commandments depending on where the denominations split them. In fact, if you analyze them closely you can get up to twenty five,[7] but the Bible says there are only ten - so they must be shoe-horned into that number.

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr10cisl.htm
8-11: Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant [male slave], nor thy maidservant [female slave], nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates....
12: Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13: Thou shalt not kill.
14: Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15: Thou shalt not steal.


Nice try. But, I was dropping a movie reference after Ron dropped on. Speaking of dropping...



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Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Ronald Reagan betrayed the Republicans!!! - 5/3/2013 7:22:36 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280

George Carlin on the commandments the world's foremost authority:


The Ten Commandments


LOL! I'd never heard this. Very funny.

Carlin's riff about "Why are there ten commandments?" brought to mind a crack by French premier Georges Clemenceau during WW1. After President Wilson unveiled his Fourteen Points, Clemenceau said, "Fourteen? Why, the good Lord has only ten!"

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Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Ronald Reagan betrayed the Republicans!!! - 5/4/2013 4:05:12 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
All you're doing with your given list is attempting to piss off anyone who follows a religion, but especially Christians.

I'm trying to get you to see through Christian privilege to see the bigotry of ten commandment monuments. Sure it's normal for your religion to claim that your god is the one twue god. But it's not normal for court houses to claim that your god is the one twue god. Those are supposed to belong to us as well and when you erect monuments explicitly stating that they don't...well it might as well be a statue of the middle finger.
Think about how it would be if a courthouse displayed a monument promoting a Skeptical position and hopefully you'll get what the fuss is about.


You are mistaking the 10 commandments being Christian only.

Yeah...that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about Christian privilege i.e. that many Christians in this country are so used to preferential treatment of their religion that they don't even see it as preferential. Maybe think about how such a monument with verses from the Quran would be received. Here's their version of the first commandment (depending on your list):

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?submitCh=Read+from+verse%3A&ch=47&verse=20
Know, therefore, that there is no God other than Allah, and ask forgiveness for thy frailties, and for believing men and believing women. And Allah knows the place where you move about and the place where you stay.




Even if government endorsement of the ten commandments is cool with 84% which *eye roll* is some wishful thinking math. I'm thinking a lot of Muslims wouldn't feel terribly well represented by a Jewish list. But even if, what about the other 16%? I mean African Americans are only 12.6% of the US population, would you consider something tolerant if it was only intolerant towards African Americans, because I sure wouldn't.


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Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Ronald Reagan betrayed the Republicans!!! - 5/4/2013 4:31:19 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
All you're doing with your given list is attempting to piss off anyone who follows a religion, but especially Christians.

I'm trying to get you to see through Christian privilege to see the bigotry of ten commandment monuments. Sure it's normal for your religion to claim that your god is the one twue god. But it's not normal for court houses to claim that your god is the one twue god. Those are supposed to belong to us as well and when you erect monuments explicitly stating that they don't...well it might as well be a statue of the middle finger.
Think about how it would be if a courthouse displayed a monument promoting a Skeptical position and hopefully you'll get what the fuss is about.

You are mistaking the 10 commandments being Christian only.

Yeah...that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about Christian privilege i.e. that many Christians in this country are so used to preferential treatment of their religion that they don't even see it as preferential. Maybe think about how such a monument with verses from the Quran would be received. Here's their version of the first commandment (depending on your list):
quote:

ORIGINAL: http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?submitCh=Read+from+verse%3A&ch=47&verse=20
Know, therefore, that there is no God other than Allah, and ask forgiveness for thy frailties, and for believing men and believing women. And Allah knows the place where you move about and the place where you stay.

Even if government endorsement of the ten commandments is cool with 84% which *eye roll* is some wishful thinking math. I'm thinking a lot of Muslims wouldn't feel terribly well represented by a Jewish list. But even if, what about the other 16%? I mean African Americans are only 12.6% of the US population, would you consider something tolerant if it was only intolerant towards African Americans, because I sure wouldn't.


84% is wishful thinking math? Grab your calculator and try again with the wiki #'s.

Your God is, "no one," right? So, you shall have no gods other than "no one." Easy to comply with the First isn't it?

You may have issues not complying with the second, though. Kind of hard to not have "false idols" more important than your god when your god is, "no one." Any desire for something would be more important than your relationship with "no one." The holy day decreed by "no one" is.... nonexistent. Can't make it unholy, either. Can't take god's name in vain when there is no god, can you?

How intolerant!

Equating race with religion is a stupid strawman. Last time I heard, an adult can change their religion if they so choose. Michael Jackson showed it's damn difficult and there is limited success in trying to change one's skin color.


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Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Ronald Reagan betrayed the Republicans!!! - 5/4/2013 9:19:20 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
84% is wishful thinking math? Grab your calculator and try again with the wiki #'s.

Yes it takes serious wishful thinking to even get to 54% for the reason I've already pointed out, here it is again:

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
I'm thinking a lot of Muslims wouldn't feel terribly well represented by a Jewish list.


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Your God is, "no one," right? So, you shall have no gods other than "no one." Easy to comply with the First isn't it?

You may have issues not complying with the second, though. Kind of hard to not have "false idols" more important than your god when your god is, "no one." Any desire for something would be more important than your relationship with "no one." The holy day decreed by "no one" is.... nonexistent. Can't make it unholy, either. Can't take god's name in vain when there is no god, can you?

That's some serious Christian privilege, try the same mental gymnastics with the Quran passage I posted. Are you content thinking of your God as Allah?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
How intolerant!

Equating race with religion is a stupid strawman.

In terms of my analogy both are minority groups with membership in the teens. The point being it's not ok to be intolerant to 16% just because it's only 16%. Something that's really easy to grasp once Christian privilege isn't in play.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Last time I heard, an adult can change their religion if they so choose. Michael Jackson showed it's damn difficult and there is limited success in trying to change one's skin color.

I'll certainly agree that religion is more mutable than race but religion isn't a choice. Try to stop having faith in Christianity and have faith in Zeus for the week and you'll see what I mean.

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Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Ronald Reagan betrayed the Republicans!!! - 5/4/2013 11:29:38 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Christian privilege... Christian privilege... Christian privilege

I'm curious about this. Do you have to be Christian to enjoy Christian privilege?

I mean do they check, or is it enough to look goyish?

K.

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Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Ronald Reagan betrayed the Republicans!!! - 5/4/2013 1:35:39 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
84% is wishful thinking math? Grab your calculator and try again with the wiki #'s.

Yes it takes serious wishful thinking to even get to 54% for the reason I've already pointed out, here it is again:
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
I'm thinking a lot of Muslims wouldn't feel terribly well represented by a Jewish list.


How is it not, essentially, a Jewish list, other than not listing "Allah" as the name of God? And, other than the Q'uran specifying the deity

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Your God is, "no one," right? So, you shall have no gods other than "no one." Easy to comply with the First isn't it?
You may have issues not complying with the second, though. Kind of hard to not have "false idols" more important than your god when your god is, "no one." Any desire for something would be more important than your relationship with "no one." The holy day decreed by "no one" is.... nonexistent. Can't make it unholy, either. Can't take god's name in vain when there is no god, can you?

That's some serious Christian privilege, try the same mental gymnastics with the Quran passage I posted. Are you content thinking of your God as Allah?


My God is not Allah. But, how is the commandment to not worship any gods other than God? God, in this case, isn't being defined to the God of any one religion.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
How intolerant!
Equating race with religion is a stupid strawman.

In terms of my analogy both are minority groups with membership in the teens. The point being it's not ok to be intolerant to 16% just because it's only 16%. Something that's really easy to grasp once Christian privilege isn't in play.


Well, sure,except for that little genetic basis for one but not the other. Or, are you saying that Christians have the privilege to change their skin color?

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
ast time I heard, an adult can change their religion if they so choose. Michael Jackson showed it's damn difficult and there is limited success in trying to change one's skin color.

I'll certainly agree that religion is more mutable than race but religion isn't a choice. Try to stop having faith in Christianity and have faith in Zeus for the week and you'll see what I mean.


If I have faith in Zeus, I'm not going to run around whining that it's more difficult than worshiping in the Christian faith... Nevermind the whole "if you truly believe, you'll have a stronger conviction and it will be easier).


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Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Ronald Reagan betrayed the Republicans!!! - 5/4/2013 1:40:51 PM   
jlf1961


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Status: offline 		Someone mind telling me what other monotheistic religions allow you to have other gods?

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Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Ronald Reagan betrayed the Republicans!!! - 5/4/2013 4:47:43 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Now, if a judge were to apply the 10 commandments and not US law, that would be a completely different story.

But wasn't the judge's whole point in placing the Ten Commandments front and center in a courthouse to underscore his belief that they are the basis of law and order?

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Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Ronald Reagan betrayed the Republicans!!! - 5/4/2013 8:31:29 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
quote:

Now, if a judge were to apply the 10 commandments and not US law, that would be a completely different story.

But wasn't the judge's whole point in placing the Ten Commandments front and center in a courthouse to underscore his belief that they are the basis of law and order?


Yes, he did. But, was he determining cases based on the 10 commandments, or US Law? If it was the former, he should be disbarred and/or recalled. As long as he's determining cases based on US law, I don't care if he makes the claim that the beliefs of the Dalek's are the basis of all law and order.

Does not putting up a monument have any bearing on how he tried cases? Since the monument isn't there, does he have less of a belief that they are the basis of law and order?




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Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Ronald Reagan betrayed the Republicans!!! - 5/4/2013 8:41:25 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
My God is not Allah.


Why not? Think about how it feels.

You're expecting the rest of us to do mental gymnastic to "think of their own head "god" as the one giving the commandments", but you sure won't do the same thing.

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Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Ronald Reagan betrayed the Republicans!!! - 5/4/2013 8:57:16 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Well, sure,except for that little genetic basis for one but not the other.

How's that relevant to the analogy? Of course the two things being compared for the analogy will be different somehow (they'd be one thing not two different things if they weren't). The question is whether the difference is relevant, or are the two things comparable for the purpose of the point I'm making.

So what's your point, are you saying it's ok to be a bigot toward religious groups?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
If I have faith in Zeus, I'm not going to run around whining that it's more difficult than worshiping in the Christian faith... Nevermind the whole "if you truly believe, you'll have a stronger conviction and it will be easier).

Um...that's a bit of a non sequitur.

You claimed that religion is a choice, I disagreed with you and challenged you to prove me wrong. All you have to do is choose a different religion.

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Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Ronald Reagan betrayed the Republicans!!! - 5/4/2013 8:58:32 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
My God is not Allah.

Why not? Think about how it feels.
You're expecting the rest of us to do mental gymnastic to "think of their own head "god" as the one giving the commandments", but you sure won't do the same thing.


Mental gymnastics?!?!? If you see that as gymnastics, what happens when you try to do something difficult?

Does the Jewish set of 10 Commandments contain a definition of who God is, other than "God?" Nope. Does the Islamic set of 10 Commandments contain a definition of who God is?

Perhaps that somersault is a bit much for you to see, but there is a huge difference.


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Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Ronald Reagan betrayed the Republicans!!! - 5/4/2013 9:02:43 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

As long as he's determining cases based on US law, I don't care if he makes the claim that the beliefs of the Dalek's are the basis of all law and order.

Here I think we encounter the pertinence of the real estate mantra: location, location, location. If the judge wants to offer his opinions at home, in the diner, at the corner bar, or anyplace else in his private life--well, it's a free country.

Placing a stone monument in the middle of a public courthouse (and, if memory serves, keeping it there after a federal judge said to remove it) creates the impression that the entire Alabama judiciary is endorsing the Ten Commandments as a pillar of their jurisprudence.

It might be an interesting thought experiment to ask how we'd feel about a judge who erected a public, seemingly court-sanctioned monument to the five pillars of Islam or the eightfold path of Buddhism.

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Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Ronald Reagan betrayed the Republicans!!! - 5/4/2013 9:06:40 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Does the Jewish set of 10 Commandments contain a definition of who God is, other than "God?"

“I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery" (Ex 20:2).

Isn't that pretty clearly referring to Yahweh? Who else could it be?

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Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Ronald Reagan betrayed the Republicans!!! - 5/4/2013 9:18:30 PM   
DOM68005


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Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Ronald Reagan betrayed the Republicans!!! - 5/5/2013 6:44:47 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
quote:

As long as he's determining cases based on US law, I don't care if he makes the claim that the beliefs of the Dalek's are the basis of all law and order.

Here I think we encounter the pertinence of the real estate mantra: location, location, location. If the judge wants to offer his opinions at home, in the diner, at the corner bar, or anyplace else in his private life--well, it's a free country.
Placing a stone monument in the middle of a public courthouse (and, if memory serves, keeping it there after a federal judge said to remove it) creates the impression that the entire Alabama judiciary is endorsing the Ten Commandments as a pillar of their jurisprudence.
It might be an interesting thought experiment to ask how we'd feel about a judge who erected a public, seemingly court-sanctioned monument to the five pillars of Islam or the eightfold path of Buddhism.


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
quote:

Does the Jewish set of 10 Commandments contain a definition of who God is, other than "God?"

“I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery" (Ex 20:2).
Isn't that pretty clearly referring to Yahweh? Who else could it be?


Outside of the Buddhism part, GotSteel has been presenting an Islamic thought experiment already.

To wit...



    quote:

    I am the Lord they God
    Thou shalt have no other gods before me


That's the actual beginning inscription on the monument. Notice, if you will, that the phrase, "who brought you out of Egypt" has been omitted. So, which "God" is being defined?



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What I support:

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Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Ronald Reagan betrayed the Republicans!!! - 5/5/2013 11:53:36 AM   
dcnovice


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quote:

That's the actual beginning inscription on the monument. Notice, if you will, that the phrase, "who brought you out of Egypt" has been omitted. So, which "God" is being defined?

Do you honestly doubt for a minute that "God" here refers to the Judeo-Christian deity?

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Profile   Post #: 120
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