RE: What actions , if any, should I take?

RE: What actions , if any, should I take? (Full Version)

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LadyPact -> RE: What actions , if any, should I take? (5/6/2013 6:05:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hera462 LadyPact, While I seldom post I do browse and have frequently enjoyed reading many of your posts. That said I do have an alternate view on this situation and feel it should be addressed. Hera, absolutely, and I'm glad to hear it. (I almost welcomed you to the forums, since I haven't seen you here much.) quote: I can completely understand your view. From your consistent manner and forthright tone I feel that as a top you also feel a responsibility to try as best you can to pay attention to and gauge the head space of your sub during a scene.And yes, sometimes there can be misunderstandings of body language or intent. At the same time I believe that if it was clear that you were pushing someone too far you would feel a moral obligation to at least check where they were at. In the described instance we do not know what took place. We do not know How often No may have been expressed, If safe words were ignored, Threats made, what coercion or force may or may not have been used. We simply do not know. It's ironic that you brought this up. I was just recently talking elsewhere about safewords and the complications that arise from those situations where bottoms either don't want to use them or feel guilty if they do. (Not something I recommend a bottom feeling, but you know how that goes.) I've actually adopted a policy of asking bottoms at certain points during the scene about what color is My hair. People have seen/heard this happen at public opportunities and it eliminates some of this. quote: It is the very fact that there is an assumption that the victims can not distinguish between rape and "pressure" or that they are outright lying that is harmful. It is not only harmful and sets up a prejudice in this instance (for which we do not know the truth yet) but for victims everywhere. What I am trying to say is: that while the jury is still out on the events which took place, care should be taken not to put the victims on trial. Speculating as to what they may have done to get themselves in a situation that got out of control is incredibly damaging. It is incredibly damaging to the girl who may have been raped 3000 miles from where this event took place, who looks at these responses and tries to justify her role in something she never had any control over. Who then never comes forward to seek help and support. This is one of the drawbacks of having these situations on the net. Nobody here honestly has a clue of what really happened and speculation is bound to happen. At the same time, don't we owe just as much to the accused as we do the accuser? It's just as bad to have topics like these and have tops automatically assume they aren't going to get a fair shake? That all it takes is an accusation to have them labeled a rapist, that they will be outted, even if it comes down to believing that somebody going from "no" to "yes" during a scene should never tell their side? quote: I think that there is a misunderstanding of what I meant. I was saying that whether or not the accused holds guilt should not condone laying blame on the victims without knowing the story. I do understand that sometimes people make things up, or misinterpret anothers actions. I had an ex who had this very thing happen to him during a graduation party his senior year of high school. He was locked in jail for several months,missed graduation, and it had a devastating impact on his life afterwards. I do not condone that behavior. In fact false accusations fan the fire of victim blaming and make it all that much harder for actual victims to seek justice and support. Through this thread, I hope one of the important things coming from it is how it's necessary to get the facts. I can't say I'm going to give up the stance of that there has to be something more than an accusation before action is taken. That's not the best message, either. quote: That is responsible and reasonable. I agree that that is a mature way to handle things. I am not sure however how that relates to what I was saying about the immediate assumption that anyone who make such an accusation is a drama queen and simply overreacting. Actually, I think it is because you do take someone seriously that you decide to further investigate the issue. Personally, I'm very much looking at this thread from the position of how I would hope to handle the situation if it happened here. Frankly, I'd have been half sick (physically) if something like this happened in My home. I'm more the type to insist on putting up signs about certain candles not being for wax play or issuing stern warnings about the ice on the sidewalk. The only thing going for the host is that the issues didn't seem to happen on her property. I actually consider the OP to be a pretty good guy. I know he's got to be asking himself if he really wants to be associated with CMP after all of this. I don't envy him his decision.

PeonForHer -> RE: What actions , if any, should I take? (5/6/2013 6:06:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OsideGirl Yes, I think it's pretty much confirmed that he's s nasty little arse. I particularly like this little gem: quote: I am a fellow victim of this abuser. I was there the night night he used suicide as a manipulation tactic with a loaded gun. God almighty. Right. Whether or not he's a rapist, then, he's a bloody nutcase.

Hera462 -> RE: What actions , if any, should I take? (5/6/2013 6:36:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact At the same time, don't we owe just as much to the accused as we do the accuser? It's just as bad to have topics like these and have tops automatically assume they aren't going to get a fair shake? That all it takes is an accusation to have them labeled a rapist, that they will be outted, even if it comes down to believing that somebody going from "no" to "yes" during a scene should never tell their side? Absolutely. Both sides should without a doubt be heard. I think the main difference in My expression of opinion here is that in My life experiences, even after a conviction of rape (and most certainly before) there has always been speculation floating around and whispers when the victim left the room that the victim was "making it up" or "just let herself get into a bad situation". That the victim should have somehow been able to prevent this or was over reacting. So, I am not saying to assume guilt before you hear both sides, but just to take care about assuming a victims fault before the situation is revealed. I do want to note though that in this situation, I would hope that the accused is at least reflecting on how he treats people and trying to figure out why 5,7, 10(+?) woman are saying that he raped or in someway took advantage of them.

littlewonder -> RE: What actions , if any, should I take? (5/6/2013 6:39:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: SeekingTrinity Because nothing has been proven, I'd caution against warning people directly about this guy specifically. I'm wondering, if you (or anyone else here) were with your sister or an old female friend at the same gig as this man, and saw them 'coming together' . . . would you say nothing about his reputation to her? No I wouldn't. I expect them to be adults and do their homework and take responsibility for their own well-being. I learned a long time ago that most people really don't want to hear what you have to say and few listen to you anyway. Let's stop treating people like children. Imo this is why people have become so irresponsible. There's always someone out there wanting to "protect" and "save" them instead of letting the person learn on their own and take responsibilities for their own lives.

PeonForHer -> RE: What actions , if any, should I take? (5/6/2013 6:46:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder Let's stop treating people like children. Imo this is why people have become so irresponsible. There's always someone out there wanting to "protect" and "save" them instead of letting the person learn on their own and take responsibilities for their own lives. It does sound like this man has been acting like an irresponsible kid, and one who's been banking on people protecting him. Though now, presumably, he's learning.

littlewonder -> RE: What actions , if any, should I take? (5/6/2013 6:52:10 PM)
We only know again, heresay from others that he's an asshat. We have no idea whatsoever if he is. For all we know, some of the girls he played with got pissed off and decided to start rumors about him. We have no idea at all. When I first started dating my husband, I swear half the city came to me telling me he was trouble, that he didn't love me, that he was a player and every other thing you can possibly think of. To this day I'm glad I never listened to a single soul. Instead I married him and had a child and he really did love me and our life together. But had I listened to all the rumors, I would have never had him in my life and his reputation would have been ruined all because the other girls didn't get to be with him when he turned them down to be with me, because he did things that most people would never do, etc...no one knew him. They only knew him by what others said about him. So before we start calling him an asshat, how about we wait to see if we get both sides of the story from the actual parties involved? Until then I don't see any one party here who is not guilty of something or innocent of another. Innocent until found guilty. The information provided here so far would not even make it to a courtroom.

Aswad -> RE: What actions , if any, should I take? (5/6/2013 7:34:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer Well, hmm. That really is rather a lot of smoke for there to be no fire at the root of it, isn't it? No. Usually, when it's that many, we're talking about mobbing, whatever the allegations. Please, go read up on it, if you haven't already. IWYW, — Aswad.

LafayetteLady -> RE: What actions , if any, should I take? (5/6/2013 7:40:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kalikshama Nasty-arseness confirmed in my mind as well. quote: I am a fellow victim of this abuser. I was there the night night he used suicide as a manipulation tactic with a loaded gun. I might have slept with him to defuse the situation but my next stop would have been to the police to tell them he has guns and is a danger to himself and others. They take that shit seriously in my current state of Massachusetts and my former state of Florida. I would have thought "manipulative asshole" but would not have labeled myself as his victim. First kali, thanks for sending me links so I could get a better picture. Your quote above struck me as well. Using suicide as manipulation is not rape. Not even close. Frankly, had I felt that I had just been raped and then my rapist said that if I left, they would shoot themselves, I would simply tell them to wait until I was gone because I didn't want their blood splatter on my clothes. From my experience (which is pretty extensive), abused people who have now reached the point where escape is first and foremost on their minds don't really care if their abuser blows their brains out, especially since it would make that escape easier. Unlike you, I am enough of a bitch that I would have told him a better way to aim the gun to get the job done than to have slept with him to stop him from shooting himself. But then again, I'm enough of a bitch that even as an "innocent" beginner, I wouldn't have tolerated his behavior from the start. Nothing, and I do mean absolutely nothing that I read in any posts you sent me, or others that were posted here or I was able to find said anything to make me believe rape happened. Lots of accusations, lots of "he raped me, too," but when they describe the events, rape isn't what comes to my mind at all. Do I think he is likely a first rate asswipe? Definitely. Do I think having unprotected sex is irresponsible? Of course. Another quote from someone on that post quote: This is a person who lied to me more than once and put my sexual health at risk more than once. This is someone who put the sexual health of every single person in his 'house' at risk on more than one occasion. This is someone who abused us. I find it very interesting that this person has disassociated with all the members of his house here on FetLife within ten minutes of your posting this. I find it very interesting that he never encouraged us to get together as girls to chit chat over wine and hang out. I find it interesting that he felt it was necessary to supervise almost all of our interactions over the course of my apprenticeship. Prime jerk off behavior, for sure. Rape? Not even close. What I do see are a bunch of women who signed up to be part of his "harem" and then, understandably weren't happy about his rampant fucking around without protection. But I also can't help but wonder how he "kept them from leaving," a sentiment that is repeated, when it doesn't appear they weren't all living with him. How does someone prevent you from leaving their "virtual" house? And it is "virtual" when the term house is being used as an indicator that you are someone's sub, but not living with them. You go home, you have left. You don't go back, unless he is coming to physically take you, you have successfully removed yourself. Nothing indicates he physically restrained them, rather, it was done through manipulation. I don't buy into all the "poor innocent lambs" mentality that people so frequently take, especially in these situations. Yes, I have seen middle aged women behave like a 14 year old who doesn't know how to respond to the boy who like them, but it doesn't mean the behavior is excusable. It has always baffled me how relatively intelligent women can suddenly buy into the idea that all common sense doesn't apply because of BDSM. It continues to apply, perhaps even more so. When something doesn't feel right, then it doesn't feel right. If everyone you have ever spoke to in BDSM says they do it, but it doesn't feel right to you, then it isn't right for you. It makes me wonder seriously what these women said when their parents inevitably ask, "if all your friends were jumping off a bridge, would you follow?" The answer is obviously yes, since they seem to lack the sense to think for themselves to begin with. The accusers may be lableled gossips, but the accused, as others have already stated, become persona non grata in a community based on accusations. The facts set forth earlier in Kali's post about what was going to be supplied, and then not supplied, then partially supplied....the accused credibility is not the only credibility in doubt from what I have read.

littlewonder -> RE: What actions , if any, should I take? (5/6/2013 8:25:04 PM)
couldn't have said it better

SilverBoat -> RE: What actions , if any, should I take? (5/6/2013 10:16:32 PM)
Steven, from what I've seen, you're among the more level-headed and well-intentioned souls who frequent these forums. And I'd expect you've already considered most, all, or more of the combinations and permutations of possible truths, rumors, blusterings, hedgings, blinkerings, delusions and outright lies that many of the replies above have sometimes insisted you should or haven't. Good on ya for bringing the topic for discussion. My take on the -reality- oof the guy's interaction with the women, based on the available information, is that he seems rather obviously at least a sexual predator, and of the sort who finds the kink community a more likely place to find women (prey) who are vulnerable to his manipulative schemes. From some sort of distant social-Darwinism perspective, sure, there might be some kind of generic neutral moral ground, that suggests nothing should be done. However, as an influential member of a small community, closer perspective leads to conclusion that actions to preserve its coherence, reputation, well-being, etc could be the most circumspect choice. So, what to do? ... Start with the serenity criteria, and go heavy on the wisdom-to-know-the-difference ... It looks like the predator has hooks somehow into the party-host, maybe even just to the extent that he was bringing some fresh one-(or-few)-time(s) female meat to the events, which, if going commercial, traffic is seen as 'good' for drawing participants (not unlike sometime trolling events here, eh?) To that end, they'll continue cooperating in scheming to continue as they are, and frankly, even if they acknowledge fault, they won't be sincere. That's just typical of those sorts. Your best bet, I'd recommend, is educating the potential victims (which efforts have begun already?), continue efforts to get the first-person facts into public knowledge (including legal/criminal action if that's appropriate), vote with your feet and wallet (as you suggested), and yanno, since you thought you could spot his potential newbie prey, there are anonymous ways to convey warnings (no less ethical, really, than what he's doing). Sure, he and host will try to paint themselves as bullied victims, but yanno, if he truly had nothing to hide, he's got every opportunity, here or elsewhere, to describe in line-by-line detail what's different between what his version and his accusers' version of events. That he hasn't done so, but resorted to distancing, stonewalling, etc, does seem rather telling as to which version is more truthful, and the potential repercussions. ... Again, good on you for bringing it here for discussion, that ain't the only time these things happen ... SB

PeonForHer -> RE: What actions , if any, should I take? (5/7/2013 2:02:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer Well, hmm. That really is rather a lot of smoke for there to be no fire at the root of it, isn't it? No. Usually, when it's that many, we're talking about mobbing, whatever the allegations. Please, go read up on it, if you haven't already. IWYW, — Aswad. I already have - but thanks for the suggestion, Aswad.

PeonForHer -> RE: What actions , if any, should I take? (5/7/2013 3:04:48 AM)
PS - No, it isn't called 'mob mentality' just because lots of people have made similar allegations.

kiwisub12 -> RE: What actions , if any, should I take? (5/7/2013 4:13:56 AM)
I hate "he said, she said" scenerios. How can someone outside the whole affair have any chance of figuring out the truth? Newbie classes are a good idea, but won't reach people that aren't in touch with the local group, and from what i read, these are the women who need the info. and people that try to change others behaviour by threatening suicide? Almost never actually kill themselves. They find out how effective it is and use it until someone calls them on their shit. Encountered professionally many that exibited that bit of behaviour and i always wanted to tell them to make the world a better place, and go ahead with their threat. And that would be about the least "dominant" behaviour out there. [8\|]

Duskypearls -> RE: What actions , if any, should I take? (5/7/2013 4:29:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SilverBoat Steven, from what I've seen, you're among the more level-headed and well-intentioned souls who frequent these forums. And I'd expect you've already considered most, all, or more of the combinations and permutations of possible truths, rumors, blusterings, hedgings, blinkerings, delusions and outright lies that many of the replies above have sometimes insisted you should or haven't. Good on ya for bringing the topic for discussion. My take on the -reality- oof the guy's interaction with the women, based on the available information, is that he seems rather obviously at least a sexual predator, and of the sort who finds the kink community a more likely place to find women (prey) who are vulnerable to his manipulative schemes. From some sort of distant social-Darwinism perspective, sure, there might be some kind of generic neutral moral ground, that suggests nothing should be done. However, as an influential member of a small community, closer perspective leads to conclusion that actions to preserve its coherence, reputation, well-being, etc could be the most circumspect choice. So, what to do? ... Start with the serenity criteria, and go heavy on the wisdom-to-know-the-difference ... It looks like the predator has hooks somehow into the party-host, maybe even just to the extent that he was bringing some fresh one-(or-few)-time(s) female meat to the events, which, if going commercial, traffic is seen as 'good' for drawing participants (not unlike sometime trolling events here, eh?) To that end, they'll continue cooperating in scheming to continue as they are, and frankly, even if they acknowledge fault, they won't be sincere. That's just typical of those sorts. Your best bet, I'd recommend, is educating the potential victims (which efforts have begun already?), continue efforts to get the first-person facts into public knowledge (including legal/criminal action if that's appropriate), vote with your feet and wallet (as you suggested), and yanno, since you thought you could spot his potential newbie prey, there are anonymous ways to convey warnings (no less ethical, really, than what he's doing). Sure, he and host will try to paint themselves as bullied victims, but yanno, if he truly had nothing to hide, he's got every opportunity, here or elsewhere, to describe in line-by-line detail what's different between what his version and his accusers' version of events. That he hasn't done so, but resorted to distancing, stonewalling, etc, does seem rather telling as to which version is more truthful, and the potential repercussions. ... Again, good on you for bringing it here for discussion, that ain't the only time these things happen ... SB Best post I've seen yet regarding this situation. I know Steven personally, and you are absolutely on the mark with your assessment of him. He is a very decent, honorable fellow, and does much, in my opinion, to earn the title I gave to him, "The BDSM Ambassador of Colorado." In fact, it was he who invited me to my first spank party, at the very place where all this distasteful stuff has now occurred. Took me under his wing, educated and kept an eye on me to ensure I was safe, until I got my sea legs. I have much respect for him. I have also met, and have several times had the opportunity to watch the person in question, and tho' I've had no personal interactions w/him BDSM or otherwise, from a sensory (energy reading) point of view, I have always felt him to be "icky," "creepy." To me, your post most accurately described them both, as well as your description of the actual situation and what should be done from this point.

evesgrden -> RE: What actions , if any, should I take? (5/7/2013 5:12:54 AM)
Ok, let's say it's not rape. Let's say it's not sexual assault on any level. Let's say it's totally false, he has not fucked anyone against their will. He didn't keep them bound when they wanted to be released he didn't use physical force in any way to get what he wanted without their consent. I've not heard one person say that this is a guy with integrity, but rather that he's either doing mind fucks with newbies and playing with guns and threatening suicide, or he's using emotional blackmail to gain compliance. Yet he presents as a mentor and seeks out those with little to no experience. Now, is this the guy you want to have your first experience with? Do you want to learn about mind fucks from him, or needles, or punishment dynamics, or emotional sadism or or or? What's your take on doing blood play with him and exchanging other bodily fluids? Whether he forced his cock into someone's parts against their will is not the big issue for me here. It seems that this guys does some really bad shit to newbies, and in the context of "mentoring" no less. As far as I'm concerned, duty warn still exists. In my early days when I was first experimenting I was warned off someone.(I naively thought that if someone was willing to take the time to tie me up, then they'd give me the type of attention I wanted.) I disregarded the warning and nothing awful happened. In fact it was all pretty cool and he was a very heavy player. When it came to play he was quite trustworthy: caning, blood play, breath play, highly skilled single tail, fisting, some minor mind fucks, needles and so forth. People were warning me off as a newbie because he was such a heavy player; not because of his integrity or trustworthiness. If it had been the latter and then something untoward occurred while we were together, my antenna would have been up and I would have been ready for it, and ready to say "no way... see ya". Integrity is everything. but I digress ...sorta. This guy as a mentor? Seriously? I can't imagine anyone, after all this, who wouldn't say a word if a newbie asked them "what do you think of me learning from this guy? I don't have any experience yet." No, I don't know him. No, I don't know what happened (thinking: Fair Witness in Stranger in a Strange Land). There have been a number of women claiming they've had some pretty bad experiences with this guy. May or may not be true, but if this is your first go-round, why take the chance? Ok, I think I've rambled on enough about this. For those who think it's just a case of caveat emptor..we'll have to agree to disagree. If there were new folks coming to an event and they were exactly the type that he tries to charm into into his harem, yes I would warn them. This is not who you want for a mentor, or to experiment in play with.. you're taking a serious risk if you go with this guy.

Aswad -> RE: What actions , if any, should I take? (5/7/2013 6:07:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer PS - No, it isn't called 'mob mentality' just because lots of people have made similar allegations. Mobbing, not mob mentality, but my point was the overall atmosphere, not just the numbers. Also, a big difference between warning people that "this guy has a rep as a bit of a crap dom" and warning them that he's a serial rapist. Already, he's clearly acquiring a bad reputation in the community, and by the time anyone knows the truth about any of these allegations, it'll be "common knowledge" in the community that he's a serial rapist, which will become testimony in a trial if he's ever charged with anything, including if the charges are false. If I understand correctly, two women have posted about these allegations, one claiming to speak on behalf of "more than 8" people but not claiming to have been raped, and one claiming to be among those. The mentor program asked to see a police report to avoid jumping the gun; she produces a report without her name on it, substantiating the claim of being a douche, but not the claim of rape. Unless the others come forward, at least online, we have two accounts on record with an extraordinary claim and a paucity of evidence, while at the same time we have a known real person on record saying he's got good qualifications. For me, that wouldn't be enough to turn on a member of my own community. And to answer the sister cheapshot, I might be inclined to approach the guy when she's not around, and say "Hey, that's my sister, you have a bit of a reputation and I have an overprotective streak. Let's be friends.", but then, I'm an asshole, so... IWYW, — Aswad.

PeonForHer -> RE: What actions , if any, should I take? (5/7/2013 7:07:54 AM)
quote: PS - No, it isn't called 'mob mentality' just because lots of people have made similar allegations. quote: Mobbing, not mob mentality, but my point was the overall atmosphere, not just the numbers. Also, a big difference between warning people that "this guy has a rep as a bit of a crap dom" and warning them that he's a serial rapist. Well, I'd go with a warning that "this guy has a bad reputation for going too far". Something of a vague comment; deliberately so. It's not been established that he's a serial rapist, so that's not appropriate. As for 'mobbing' - well, that does take a certain level of collusion. One could say that there's been a little of that with regard to DarkSteven here and on this thread. There could even be a bit of mobbing going on with the reputations of the accusers of this man, too. quote: And to answer the sister cheapshot, I might be inclined to approach the guy when she's not around, and say "Hey, that's my sister, you have a bit of a reputation and I have an overprotective streak. Let's be friends.", but then, I'm an asshole, so... 'Cheapshot' is feeble, Aswad, and misses the point. I sensed a view that spoke as though in the rarified abstract. This, I felt, might be why people are able to come to what I saw as quick and comfy moral opinions before wiping their hands of the matter. This is not fair on the people involved. Mind you, if someone were to say: "So, supposing this accused man were to be your brother" - I'd go along with that, too. It's a contributory cause to this giant headache.

MsEloquence -> RE: What actions , if any, should I take? (5/7/2013 7:52:52 AM)
Fast reply. Steven: If I were you I would stop attending this party. When asked why, I would indicate that it's because I prefer not to attend parties with jerks like the guy you mistrust. In addition, if I actually thought the guy was assaulting people a) I would tell the cops, b) I might tell the party organizer that I'd done so. Eloquence (edited for typos and spacing)

TheLilSquaw -> RE: What actions , if any, should I take? (5/7/2013 8:51:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: evesgrden Ok, let's say it's not rape. Let's say it's not sexual assault on any level. Let's say it's totally false, he has not fucked anyone against their will. He didn't keep them bound when they wanted to be released he didn't use physical force in any way to get what he wanted without their consent. I've not heard one person say that this is a guy with integrity, but rather that he's either doing mind fucks with newbies and playing with guns and threatening suicide, or he's using emotional blackmail to gain compliance. Yet he presents as a mentor and seeks out those with little to no experience. The label rapist is a life long label. Even when proven to be false that allegation can have life long ramifications. Hell, in some neighborhoods or circles being called a rapist yet alone a serial rapist can be a death sentence. So weather you think he has integrity or should be mentoring is a moot point IMO. Neither of THOSE things mean his life should be ruined or that he should have to live with the stigma of that word rapist. And the reality is THAT is what it is being thrown around.

evesgrden -> RE: What actions , if any, should I take? (5/7/2013 9:27:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheLilSquaw quote: ORIGINAL: evesgrden Ok, let's say it's not rape. Let's say it's not sexual assault on any level. Let's say it's totally false, he has not fucked anyone against their will. He didn't keep them bound when they wanted to be released he didn't use physical force in any way to get what he wanted without their consent. I've not heard one person say that this is a guy with integrity, but rather that he's either doing mind fucks with newbies and playing with guns and threatening suicide, or he's using emotional blackmail to gain compliance. Yet he presents as a mentor and seeks out those with little to no experience. The label rapist is a life long label. Even when proven to be false that allegation can have life long ramifications. Hell, in some neighborhoods or circles being called a rapist yet alone a serial rapist can be a death sentence. So weather you think he has integrity or should be mentoring is a moot point IMO. Neither of THOSE things mean his life should be ruined or that he should have to live with the stigma of that word rapist. And the reality is THAT is what it is being thrown around. You're right. And that's part of why I said let's just take it out of the equation and get back to the issue at hand. Steven asked whether he should warn people about B. My answer is "yes". And there's no need to use the word "rape" at all. That's up to the courts if it gets that far. So yeah, warn the ones who might well be marks for this guy, and then they can decide to do as they please i.e., whether to move forward with him or not.

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