RE: What actions , if any, should I take?

RE: What actions , if any, should I take? (Full Version)

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kalikshama -> RE: What actions , if any, should I take? (5/6/2013 2:44:15 PM)
Here we have someone who told the mentor's group that she filed a police report (see first post by MasterWalker), then posted that she had not (see OP), then posted that she was in the process of doing so, then it turns out: https://fetlife.com/users/101789/posts/1513455#post_comment_5389586 1) In this report, you made no mention of actual rape to the police. Nonetheless, there seems to be serious intimidation. I can see why you might choose not to take this report that far if you were not ready to prosecute. 2) You refused to give the officers your assailant’s name or issue a restraining order. I am sure this was personal decision made in the moment and I have no problem with it but my advice has always been to seek police intervention by at least having police talk with the person who may be intimidating you or whom you fear. 3) And lastly you also removed any mention of your name from the police report you sent me. I would have been fine with you removing your last name but removing all identifiers of yourself creates an area of doubt. This offers skeptics little assurance that this is even a report about your incident.

kalikshama -> RE: What actions , if any, should I take? (5/6/2013 2:58:20 PM)
quote: Any thoughts or suggestions? DS - are you aware of the initiatives mentioned here? (Sorry about the lack of specific references in a long thread but try MsSaskia's posts.) https://fetlife.com/users/1017853/posts/1539513

LadyPact -> RE: What actions , if any, should I take? (5/6/2013 2:59:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hera462 The amount of immediate victim blaming in this thread has My stomach turning. As soon as "accused of rape" was uttered people were chomping at the bit to decree a warning against judgement of the accused because "The women should have known better than to be in that situation" A flock of justifications abounded as to how the accused may be innocent. It must just be some stupid girls regretting that they banged this guy, Or that they were angry he had spurned them after the event. And best of all, If they were really raped they would have run to the authorities. I'm sincerely sorry that you feel that way. I've seen this thread in an entirely different way. I do happen to believe in innocent until proven guilty. I'm also looking at this thread from the fact that I am a top. I'm very familiar with the fact that I may not be seeing a scene in the same way as the bottom does. One area where I know this happens is that I may not feel the play is sexual in nature but the bottom is absolutely aroused. That's just one of a hundred ways that we could both be participants in the same scene and have two completely different perceptions of what is happening. quote: It is not the concept that the accused may be innocent that bothers Me, but the assumption of the guilt and incompetence of the accuser that has me appalled. It bothers Me. The reason that it does is because of incidents where I've literally been in attendance at the same play party where supposedly x, y, z happened and what I saw certainly wasn't what was being described online the next day. When twenty people have to come forward and say what we saw and what we heard and defend our public play space against accusations from people who weren't really there, but they "talked" to somebody who was, that gets kind of messy. Believe it or not, that kind of thing happens, too. quote: This all without ever hearing the full story. With no word uttered about No never having been spoken. The immediate assumption that the victims are just "Drama Lamas" seems to Me to be a serious sign of just how Not seriously we take victims. No, to Me, that's the exact problem. I want to expand on that a bit. I have a small dungeon here that we call "Leather and Lace". It's only been going for the last couple of months that we've been holding parties here. Some are invite only. Others are more public. (Best term I can think of to describe the situation.) We stepped up when our community dungeon lost it's venue for a recent event. (We don't have a dedicated public club up here. We rent space when the community wants to have a play party.) For what is considered a "public" event, we abide by the vetting criteria that would get anybody entrance to the community dungeon. Private events are tougher because we have a higher criteria than just attending two munches in the last six months. We have a higher age limit, for example. We've got a no drama clause. Also, a person has to meet and be screened by us. I've actually got two people that, while they are vetted to attend community events, I won't have them here for parties. I figure, that's a part of My job as the host. I have to determine who can and can not be here. If I can't discuss the situation with the parties involved, in My opinion, that's a piss poor way to handle things. Particularly the accusers because those are the people who don't want the accused at any event that I hold here. quote: The vitriol seems to run so deep as to even accuse Steven of jealously when he mentions that none of the accused play partners seem to return to events....... I could be incorrect, but I saw that as Steven's attempt at some levity. Something hard to do with such a difficult subject. quote: I can not be judge as to the innocence or guilt of the accused....... I do believe it is a safe assumption that people will go even further in private than they would display in a public setting. I agree that people go further in private. There are two problems with this. The first has already been discussed and if these are events that this woman is hosting, rather than community events, at the end of the day, she can have who she wants in her house. If people don't like that, I'd suggest that they don't attend. The other is that most people don't have a clue as to what is in their by-laws for their community, if their community has by-laws at all. Most groups don't have any provision for behavior that doesn't happen at community events. The "community" doesn't have any jurisdiction over what people get up to in their private lives. If it did, we'd have one hell of a mess because we'd be trying to police activities that have nothing to do with community events and space. Lots of groups that do have by-laws use some version of the term "a member in good standing". It's not terribly defined except for attendance records required for certain events and what conduct is required during community events. Generally, nothing is in there about what a person does away from the group is their own business. More groups have clauses about removing a person's vetted status for outting another member than they do for accusations of sexual assault. quote: Regardless of what events actually transpired, The situation should at least be taken seriously. I would not support parties or events who felt it all right to condone such behavior. By protecting and defending the accused it is giving license to such behavior. If the accused felt a responsibility to his hostess friend as much a she did to him, he would lay low and do his best to (re?) establish his solid reputation and address concerns instead of flaunting his lack of concern about the situation. I think we disagree on this point. I do think it's being taken seriously, even in discussion here. I'm hoping what will happen is that the group will use this experience to help to define what to do when a situation like this arises. I honestly believe that some of this could have been prevented if actual assaults have taken place. By looking into it further on the other site, I do see proactive efforts about educating folks. NOT against a particular individual but how to prevent certain situations and support for those who may have encountered them. In other writings, I've seen a lot of folks stand up and want to do something so that others aren't put in the same position. You can call it blaming the victims if you want, but if some of these women had felt the same kind of responsibility for other members of the community that I've seen some of these gentlemen display, there might not have been five women making the same accusations. Yes. Reporting is tough. However, I'd actually think it would be easier to take the issue to the host of a spanking party than it would to be to go to the cops.

PeonForHer -> RE: What actions , if any, should I take? (5/6/2013 3:53:18 PM)
quote: The vitriol seems to run so deep as to even accuse Steven of jealously when he mentions that none of the accused play partners seem to return to events....... quote: I could be incorrect, but I saw that as Steven's attempt at some levity. Something hard to do with such a difficult subject. A bit of levity, true; but, for me, also a recognition on Steven's part of those impulses in him that might make his motivations in this issue 'less than honest'. Also for me - paradoxically - that's a sign that his motivations are honest. I mean, jeez, in his position, one of the very first things I'd ask myself is 'Are you just acting out of jealousy here because this bloke's a hit with the ladies?' - and I'd expect it to be one of Steven's first questions of himself, too. He's never struck me as the self-bullshitting type.

PeonForHer -> RE: What actions , if any, should I take? (5/6/2013 3:56:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kalikshama quote: Any thoughts or suggestions? DS - are you aware of the initiatives mentioned here? (Sorry about the lack of specific references in a long thread but try MsSaskia's posts.) https://fetlife.com/users/1017853/posts/1539513 I've just looked at MsSaskia's contributions on that thread. Yes. Commendable stuff, from what I've seen so far.

Level -> RE: What actions , if any, should I take? (5/6/2013 4:00:29 PM)
Re: Hera's post; they're alleged victims. It's quite a leap to go from "this guy sounds like a jerk", to believing that he's a serial rapist, without any proof, and with no charges being filed. I don't like the idea of someone being raped, but I don't like men being falsely accused, either.

OsideGirl -> RE: What actions , if any, should I take? (5/6/2013 4:15:38 PM)
Yeah, judging from the some of the posts made by women that have been involved with him, he sounds like a predator and a flaming asshat. Personally, I wouldn't want to be at events with him and would warn friends away from him. There's enough smoke in that neighborhood, that I'm willing to yell "fire". But, that doesn't mean he's a rapist. Most of what these women wrote would prompt a reply of "Okay, he's an asshole, but you let most of this happen." I can honestly understand how being new, they didn't know where their boundaries were. But, they also didn't use their heads or listen to their guts. They allowed themselves to believe that just because he had labeled himself a Dom, he had a higher ethical or honor system than Joe Blow off the street. I'm not blaming the victim. I'm saying that both sides have some responsibility here. The line that does concern me was the "forced unprotected sex".

Level -> RE: What actions , if any, should I take? (5/6/2013 4:22:35 PM)
^^^ agreed on all counts.

Hera462 -> RE: What actions , if any, should I take? (5/6/2013 4:39:37 PM)
LadyPact, While I seldom post I do browse and have frequently enjoyed reading many of your posts. That said I do have an alternate view on this situation and feel it should be addressed. quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact I'm sincerely sorry that you feel that way. I've seen this thread in an entirely different way. I do happen to believe in innocent until proven guilty. I'm also looking at this thread from the fact that I am a top. I'm very familiar with the fact that I may not be seeing a scene in the same way as the bottom does. One area where I know this happens is that I may not feel the play is sexual in nature but the bottom is absolutely aroused. That's just one of a hundred ways that we could both be participants in the same scene and have two completely different perceptions of what is happening. I can completely understand your view. From your consistent manner and forthright tone I feel that as a top you also feel a responsibility to try as best you can to pay attention to and gauge the head space of your sub during a scene.And yes, sometimes there can be misunderstandings of body language or intent. At the same time I believe that if it was clear that you were pushing someone too far you would feel a moral obligation to at least check where they were at. In the described instance we do not know what took place. We do not know How often No may have been expressed, If safe words were ignored, Threats made, what coercion or force may or may not have been used. We simply do not know. It is the very fact that there is an assumption that the victims can not distinguish between rape and "pressure" or that they are outright lying that is harmful. It is not only harmful and sets up a prejudice in this instance (for which we do not know the truth yet) but for victims everywhere. What I am trying to say is: that while the jury is still out on the events which took place, care should be taken not to put the victims on trial. Speculating as to what they may have done to get themselves in a situation that got out of control is incredibly damaging. It is incredibly damaging to the girl who may have been raped 3000 miles from where this event took place, who looks at these responses and tries to justify her role in something she never had any control over. Who then never comes forward to seek help and support. quote: It bothers Me. The reason that it does is because of incidents where I've literally been in attendance at the same play party where supposedly x, y, z happened and what I saw certainly wasn't what was being described online the next day. When twenty people have to come forward and say what we saw and what we heard and defend our public play space against accusations from people who weren't really there, but they "talked" to somebody who was, that gets kind of messy. Believe it or not, that kind of thing happens, too. I think that there is a misunderstanding of what I meant. I was saying that whether or not the accused holds guilt should not condone laying blame on the victims without knowing the story. I do understand that sometimes people make things up, or misinterpret anothers actions. I had an ex who had this very thing happen to him during a graduation party his senior year of high school. He was locked in jail for several months,missed graduation, and it had a devastating impact on his life afterwards. I do not condone that behavior. In fact false accusations fan the fire of victim blaming and make it all that much harder for actual victims to seek justice and support. quote: [No, to Me, that's the exact problem. I want to expand on that a bit. I figure, that's a part of My job as the host. I have to determine who can and can not be here. If I can't discuss the situation with the parties involved, in My opinion, that's a piss poor way to handle things. Particularly the accusers because those are the people who don't want the accused at any event that I hold here. That is responsible and reasonable. I agree that that is a mature way to handle things. I am not sure however how that relates to what I was saying about the immediate assumption that anyone who make such an accusation is a drama queen and simply overreacting. Actually, I think it is because you do take someone seriously that you decide to further investigate the issue.

PeonForHer -> RE: What actions , if any, should I take? (5/6/2013 4:56:05 PM)
FR On something of a different level, I'm kind of struck by the sudden disappearance of the old 'anarchist impulse' on this thread. In the past, I've found myself reluctantly admiring those gun-fans who've advanced the line 'Screw leaving our protection in the hands of the cops'. (Yep, you heard my complimenting of gun-fans here first. And even a hint of my complimenting Americans particularly, too!) To me, there's a hint of a 'pioneer spirit' behind that; it goes beyond the 2nd Amendment and back to the days when you really were out on your own, protecting yourselves. * The 'Law' and its agents were irrelevant - it couldn't be there and it couldn't help. Isn't that 'pioneering spirit' of some relevance here and now, too, in this world of BDSM? We all know BDSM is alien to most people in some quite fundamental way. Joe Vanilla will say, "Nobody, but nobody, 'really wants pain'; just like nobody 'really wants to be a slave'". And so forth. In some basic ways, Joe Vanilla will not understand. Neither will the forces of law that are, for the most part, set up to represent him, and not us. One practical upshot here is, I'd imagine, a bunch of women who feel as though they've been raped but, given the BDSM context, are not at all sure of themselves or the moral and legal ground that they stand on. These are women who are no doubt quite clear that their arguments for having been raped aren't going to look good in any court of law. Hell, the sheer fact that they probably 'dressed like tarts' would be enough to have their cases thrown out, I could believe; never mind that they no doubt consented to various behaviours from this man that no vanilla women would consent to before deciding at some much later point that they didn't want what was happening. BDSM contradicts some basic things that society was set up on. Included in those things is a moral dimension. Wider society has justice systems, and moral philosophies, that weren't designed with such things as the enjoyment of pain, or the giving away of one's power to another as a voluntary slave, in mind. Some of the things that we in the BDSM world will come up against, we will have to deal with ourselves, because wider society just isn't morally, legally or practically, competent. Not all things and not in all ways, but to some extent, we are on our own. I ain't going to mention guns again. I promise you. I will not* be arguing about that on this thread, of all threads.

Hera462 -> RE: What actions , if any, should I take? (5/6/2013 4:58:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Level Re: Hera's post; they're alleged victims. It's quite a leap to go from "this guy sounds like a jerk", to believing that he's a serial rapist, without any proof, and with no charges being filed. I don't like the idea of someone being raped, but I don't like men being falsely accused, either. The bulk of My post was meant to address the doubt expressed of the victims, Not to vilify the accused. I do believe that i expressed that i could not be the judge nor jury of his guilt or innocence but if that in any way has been confused with My having a belief that he is a serial rapist please let this serve as an expression of clarification on My part.

CharmingKitty -> RE: What actions , if any, should I take? (5/6/2013 5:15:40 PM)
It depends if you think he did it. If I had any inkling the guy was a rapist I would not be associating with him or people who would be ok with being around him. You can't go telling people he might be a rapist because nothing has been proven so you can't warn people. But by you yourself being a respected person being around him you'd be adding credence to his status. The best thing you can do if you morally feel this guy is bad news to girls in the community is to make sure he isn't part of what you consider the community.

PeonForHer -> RE: What actions , if any, should I take? (5/6/2013 5:26:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CharmingKitty It depends if you think he did it. If I had any inkling the guy was a rapist I would not be associating with him or people who would be ok with being around him. You can't go telling people he might be a rapist because nothing has been proven so you can't warn people. I think we have to accept - all of us - that we're not talking in the context of proven facts, here. We're in the context of feelings and risks, possible goods and possible bads. But, for me, there's no direct and straightforward implication of 'OK, then, do nothing' in that. I think you can tell people he might be a rapist. Or at least, if that word 'rapist' is too heavy . . . at least say that he has a rep for going 'too far'.

PeonForHer -> RE: What actions , if any, should I take? (5/6/2013 5:38:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OsideGirl quote: ORIGINAL: Wendel27 Peon apprently it's three women who've written it down and the o.p. has seen this and two others who have said nothing at all. At least that's how I understand it, though that might not be right. The woman who posted the anonymous writings of one of the women said that she has been approached by more than seven women that are making statements against this man. On this thread - https://fetlife.com/users/1017853/posts/1539513 - MsSaskia talks of ten complainants. Interestingly, the alleged offender still hasn't said anything in his own defence, apparently. Oh dear. I do hope all those of us here who are exercising ourselves in this man's defence aren't rewarded in the future by discovering that, whether or not he's strictly-speaking a rapist, he's still a nasty little arse. I hate putting my mind to work on protecting arses.

SeekingTrinity -> RE: What actions , if any, should I take? (5/6/2013 5:43:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: SeekingTrinity Because nothing has been proven, I'd caution against warning people directly about this guy specifically. I'm wondering, if you (or anyone else here) were with your sister or an old female friend at the same gig as this man, and saw them 'coming together' . . . would you say nothing about his reputation to her? We can throw in all possible scenarios that you like pertaining to any female relative of mine, but that ISNT the subject of what DS originally brought up. My answer is based off what he said, not what any one of us want to throw into the mix to muddy the water. If we start out by saying "psst, hey...this guy is a guy alleged to have sexually assaulted a number of women" with no proof, who is to say that next week its not someone saying you or I or any one of us arent doing the same thing? No proof, no trial...just guilty as fuck even though we may have not done one single thing wrong. I know I for sure would not want to have my character and my reputation slaughtered without proof that my character and reputation deserved being slaughtered. I suggested something that could address safety issues for people without naming names and not having to even consider whether its true or not true.

OsideGirl -> RE: What actions , if any, should I take? (5/6/2013 5:44:15 PM)
Yes, I think it's pretty much confirmed that he's s nasty little arse. I particularly like this little gem: quote: I am a fellow victim of this abuser. I was there the night night he used suicide as a manipulation tactic with a loaded gun.

PeonForHer -> RE: What actions , if any, should I take? (5/6/2013 5:59:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SeekingTrinity We can throw in all possible scenarios that you like pertaining to any female relative of mine, but that ISNT the subject of what DS originally brought up. My answer is based off what he said, not what any one of us want to throw into the mix to muddy the water. OK, put it down to thread-drift, then. quote: If we start out by saying "psst, hey...this guy is a guy alleged to have sexually assaulted a number of women" with no proof, who is to say that next week its not someone saying you or I or any one of us arent doing the same thing? No proof, no trial...just guilty as fuck even though we may have not done one single thing wrong. I know I for sure would not want to have my character and my reputation slaughtered without proof that my character and reputation deserved being slaughtered. I can sympathise. But what do we do in the meantime, before the truth is established? What if you were to go along to a gig that this man happened to be attending with, say, some very young and innocent woman, towards whom you felt very protective? Would you stay silent about his reputation if she were to show a keen interest in him? My point is, this goes to a world outside of hard evidence and proof. It's more subtle than that, however much we'd prefer it to be otherwise. quote: I suggested something that could address safety issues for people without naming names and not having to even consider whether its true or not true. As a general policy I think that's a very good start.

Level -> RE: What actions , if any, should I take? (5/6/2013 6:01:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SeekingTrinity If we start out by saying "psst, hey...this guy is a guy alleged to have sexually assaulted a number of women" with no proof, who is to say that next week its not someone saying you or I or any one of us arent doing the same thing? No proof, no trial...just guilty as fuck even though we may have not done one single thing wrong. I know I for sure would not want to have my character and my reputation slaughtered without proof that my character and reputation deserved being slaughtered. Exactly. Steven mentors subs; what if, over a few months period, a couple of them had wanted something more from him, and he turned them down. They feel spurned. They decide to teach him a lesson, and start some unseemly rumors. He hasn't done anything wrong, but fighting that kind of shit can be awfully difficult, and sometimes the stains never go away. There's a burden of proof here, and a degree of personal responsibility, if you're going to make such claims. Steven, hope you don't mind me using you as example

CharmingKitty -> RE: What actions , if any, should I take? (5/6/2013 6:01:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer I think we have to accept - all of us - that we're not talking in the context of proven facts, here. We're in the context of feelings and risks, possible goods and possible bads. But, for me, there's no direct and straightforward implication of 'OK, then, do nothing' in that. I think you can tell people he might be a rapist. Or at least, if that word 'rapist' is too heavy . . . at least say that he has a rep for going 'too far'. I think there is no such think as "doing nothing", I believe it's indirect support. I feel by going he would be supporting a potential rapist. Not going can be interpreted as supporting or protesting. I know nothing of the situation so I can't judge either way. It depends if he is not trying to start talking about something he is unsure of, or if he is just trying not to become part of a shitstorm. Personally 6 accusations is enough where I'd feel bad not telling people of the accusations when they are going to a party with him.

kalikshama -> RE: What actions , if any, should I take? (5/6/2013 6:02:52 PM)
Nasty-arseness confirmed in my mind as well. quote: I am a fellow victim of this abuser. I was there the night night he used suicide as a manipulation tactic with a loaded gun. I might have slept with him to defuse the situation but my next stop would have been to the police to tell them he has guns and is a danger to himself and others. They take that shit seriously in my current state of Massachusetts and my former state of Florida. I would have thought "manipulative asshole" but would not have labeled myself as his victim.

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