RE: Loss of control

RE: Loss of control (Full Version)

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Rawni -> RE: Loss of control (5/11/2013 11:33:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsEloquence quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl The post I responded too.... quote: Tazzy, You may have missed most people's obliviousness. If people aren't kinky they'll hear your list more as "I miss how central he was to my life" than "I got hot and bothered when he told me what to do." Sounds to me like you are saying I got hot and bothered when he told me to do his laundry, polish his shoes, wash the walls or scrub the floors. Nothing could be farther from the truth. It had nothing to do with being "hot and bothered" when I did chores for him. What I missed, as Nueva also stated, was the structure in my life. And that is what I took exception too. So while you may insist that isnt what you meant, that is what you said and what I responded too. I am sorry that what I posted offended you. I can only repeat that my intention was to point out how unlikely it is that people will notice (or care) that someone else's relationship is unusual. I have to disagree. With the public information and many abusive relationships being in the media for many years, you talk to any lay person about a domineering person and a submissive person and their answers are going to be different than the answers that someone that understands d/s to some degree. You talk to a lay counselor or professional and they are going to take this in some pretty serious directions. If someone thinks you have been abused and a vanilla friend may in fact think so over something we all see as pretty typical, you could have a problem. What would it take to set off a red flag for them? Even if someone doesn't elaborate and give details of their relationship, a more aware friend could pick holes where holes really are and may dig to understand what might really be going on. When there is a break up, many may only need comfort. However, with some people, they may have had some life issues before the relationship or the relationship caused some and they will need more than an ear and a hug. They may need tools to heal and grow which mean moving forward with less baggage. You MUST deal with the real issues and actually talk about them in many break ups dealing with d/s if there is more than a wound from a break up. Hell, for that matter, in any relationship when there is more than a hurt heart. To know if there is more, one might need to talk about it. I don't know many emotional health issues that get healed by an ear and a hug, though they may be helpful. When d/s, for whatever reason gets into unhealthy emotional places, you need more than a hug and an ear or a nice friend. You may need tools. When you deal with abuse, you need tools. Therefore, the d/s relationship does have differences and other needs that a vanilla answer may not provide. In general, all sound advice is good, but we are talking specific issues here. Maybe backgrounds that prove challenging and are not simply a wounded heart after a break up. Not everyone is walking into relationships from sound places. In fact, those that are, in my experience are the rarity. There is always some life wound, maybe healed, that could surface given the right circumstances. D/s relationships may require a bit more in tools than in comfort alone, when there has been a break up.

petitespot -> RE: Loss of control (5/11/2013 3:13:51 PM)
Fast reply.... All of this hits too close to home. I never thought I'd be one of those people who completely fell apart due to the end of a relationship. But I was. My 18 year marriage ended quietly and with no drama. My 3 year relationship ending was numbing and completely devastating for me. The only difference between the two was the men and the control. Its been over a year and I still miss the man and his control. I've gone through the motions of dating but all that does is depress me. I still only want him. Its still painful for me.

LadyPact -> RE: Loss of control (5/11/2013 5:32:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NuevaVida I'm thinking a middle ground would be to accept that some people have devastation and some people don't, and everyone's personal experience with devastation is going to be different. And that the OP was asking about submissives and slaves whose break ups leave them without the control, authority and structure they were living under. How it turned into a comparison to vanilla life is a little confusing to me. I think that happens because it's the closest type of relationship (spouse) that most people can identify with. From what I know, the majority of the s-types on this thread include a romantic component in their dynamics so being "in love" with the other person also applies. Service oriented dynamics are somewhat different. We're still talking about the absence of the control, authority, etc when it is over, but it's more like losing a job or leaving the military. While folks may "love" a superior officer or a boss, they aren't "in love" with them and it really comes down to a loss of routines. I'm in the minority in this opinion but I don't see much of an issue with s-types keeping some of those routines at first, even if a dynamic ends. If you had a bedtime, for example, and part of your comfort zone sprang from that, there's no reason you can't keep it just because the Dominant isn't enforcing it. Like the chore list? Start writing your own. This is how you take structuring your life back for yourself. You might start doing these things with the other person in mind. As time goes on, you're putting less and less of the other person in it and more and more of yourself. Since I went with the employer/employee angle, I'll expand on that. Nothing against anyone on the thread, but as somebody who worked HR for a while, I'll repeat something I've said on various threads. Very, VERY few employees are really as perfect as they say they are. While I'm rather familiar with how easy it is to dismiss an employee for frivolous reasons, the majority of the time, that just really isn't the case.

tazzygirl -> RE: Loss of control (5/11/2013 7:02:49 PM)
quote: I'm in the minority in this opinion but I don't see much of an issue with s-types keeping some of those routines at first, even if a dynamic ends. If you had a bedtime, for example, and part of your comfort zone sprang from that, there's no reason you can't keep it just because the Dominant isn't enforcing it. Like the chore list? Start writing your own. This is how you take structuring your life back for yourself. You might start doing these things with the other person in mind. As time goes on, you're putting less and less of the other person in it and more and more of yourself. As good, and potentially correct, as that may sound, its not going to happen. The desire to do so is gone. Depression is setting in, anger, pain, bewilderment. I wasnt thinking clearly, even though I was the one who moved out. Im not sure that we see your poly scenario the same way, LP. You seem to be saying that when a relationship ends, there is support. I feel a need to amend that and point out that there is support for the remaining person, which is typically the dominant. The group usually excludes the leaving one, which is typically the sub.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Loss of control (5/11/2013 7:19:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact I'm in the minority in this opinion but I don't see much of an issue with s-types keeping some of those routines at first, even if a dynamic ends. If you had a bedtime, for example, and part of your comfort zone sprang from that, there's no reason you can't keep it just because the Dominant isn't enforcing it. Like the chore list? Start writing your own. This is how you take structuring your life back for yourself. You might start doing these things with the other person in mind. As time goes on, you're putting less and less of the other person in it and more and more of yourself. There isn't much of an issue with it conceptually, but you're going from the very steep assumption that such a thing would actually be doable for a submissive in that case. Especially for a person coming from a TPE dynamic in which they are actively trained to not follow their own directive, and to not rely on their own will to make decisions, it isn't just an easy flip they can do to go from "having my life, my time, and my goals controlled externally" to "self-motivating the direction of my life, my time, and my goals". You're acting like being in service to somebody, or being in a TPE isn't any different from having a relationship with somebody as an equal. Sorry, but that just isn't the case. When you enter in a relationship with somebody as their equal, you don't change yourself to accommodate their life, their wishes, and their will. Instead, you just merge the person that you are and remain to be into their life. With a slavery/TPE/whatever type dynamic that just isn't the case. In such a dynamic you don't enter as an equal, and for the duration of the dynamic, there are a lot of facets of you as an individual that you just do not get to express at all, in terms of managing yourself. It's perfectly possible, depending on the length of the relationship, to have the s-type completely out of practice on doing such things when the relationship ends. At that point telling them: "just go volunteer" or "keep your old routine" isn't a helpful suggestion, because self-management, self-direction of their time, goals and efforts is often precisely the thing the s-types miss the most of their old dynamic, and precisely the thing they're most out of practice doing. It's all fine and dandy to tell somebody "just go out and do X it will slowly make it easier" but that doesn't mean that X is actually something attainable for them to do in the moment post an internal enslavement break up. Do you seriously think that you can actively teach somebody to not choose for themselves, and instead let you choose for them, and that that will not have a debilitating effect post break up when it comes to them self-motivating and making their own choices? Do you really think a person can go from "yes I'll obey" to "yes I'll do what I" want overnight?

littleclip -> RE: Loss of control (5/11/2013 9:08:41 PM)
the loss of routine and structure and losss of desire it makes it hard for the s-type to cope as they are typicaly the one left alone and without support and struggling to cope with the loss, trying to see the fault or wrongdoing somewhere usualy blaming themselves in self depreciation. for the remaining member usualy the Dtype there is more support and little loss of routine and has more opportunity to interact with other s-types just my 2 bits worth

Spiritedsub2 -> RE: Loss of control (5/11/2013 9:20:10 PM)
I agree with UllrsIshtar. A D/s relationship is an entirely different dynamic than a vanilla one, but I've read comments on threads for some time in which people express the belief that the s person should just start functioning the way they did before the D/s relationship started, in order to heal and move on, the way one moves on from a vanilla break-up. This is nonsensical to me. I have also noticed that the D types are the ones demonstrating the lack of understanding on this issue, both here and in real life.

littleclip -> RE: Loss of control (5/11/2013 10:03:34 PM)
one way to see it is as a female Dominate there is no end to possible play persons but for the s-type there is far less oportunity to do so as there is a great disparity in available D-typs to seek out to help with the transition. so for the s-type there is a hard time in finding the means to move forward so sucombs to depression and other dark thoughts

Missokyst -> RE: Loss of control (5/11/2013 11:03:24 PM)
I know huh! I mean when my grandfather left my grandmother with 4 kids to raise while he went off galavanting, her nilla self had the ability to survive. She went from raising kids to raising kids and working as a cook. I guess this means that even though she was a housewife since age 13, because she was nilla she could buck it up and move on with greater ease. Seriously... what does that say about being dependant on structure?

littleclip -> RE: Loss of control (5/11/2013 11:16:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Missokyst I know huh! I mean when my grandfather left my grandmother with 4 kids to raise while he went off galavanting, her nilla self had the ability to survive. She went from raising kids to raising kids and working as a cook. I guess this means that even though she was a housewife since age 13, because she was nilla she could buck it up and move on with greater ease. Seriously... what does that say about being dependant on structure? its like having all the foundations removed from under you and then sinking to the dark cold abyss

tazzygirl -> RE: Loss of control (5/12/2013 12:52:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Missokyst I know huh! I mean when my grandfather left my grandmother with 4 kids to raise while he went off galavanting, her nilla self had the ability to survive. She went from raising kids to raising kids and working as a cook. I guess this means that even though she was a housewife since age 13, because she was nilla she could buck it up and move on with greater ease. Seriously... what does that say about being dependant on structure? Without knowing your grandmother, I could not speak for her. Perhaps you could ask her how hard it was? I know my mother's first husband died in a car accident, leaving her with a toddler and one on the way. As she often says when she speaks about that time "I didnt have time to mourn, I had children to feed". I do think that many women in that same situation find within their children a replacement focus, a reason to continue to serve, the focus is just switched. Would they do as well on their own?

LadyPact -> RE: Loss of control (5/12/2013 1:51:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl As good, and potentially correct, as that may sound, its not going to happen. The desire to do so is gone. Depression is setting in, anger, pain, bewilderment. I wasnt thinking clearly, even though I was the one who moved out. Im not sure that we see your poly scenario the same way, LP. You seem to be saying that when a relationship ends, there is support. I feel a need to amend that and point out that there is support for the remaining person, which is typically the dominant. The group usually excludes the leaving one, which is typically the sub. I think the post from Missokyst is more where I'm getting some of My thoughts from. Unless a person is completely in the home with no other responsibilities (school, work, kids) you've still got some things that you have to accomplish that aren't dynamic dependent. That's going to be the stuff that grounds you. Maybe we are looking at it from two different perspectives. You from the emotional side and Me from routines of day to day living. Also, just as a point, I'm wondering if you are looking a poly from a singular type of reference. Since we have a lot of unicorn hunters around here, I'm sure that's the first thing that folks think of when it comes to poly. That's not all situations. There are s/s couples that will still be together when the Dominant exits their lives. There are people with relationships outside of the poly group that they join. If the s-type has both a primary and a secondary relationship that are not connected, there is still the other relationship to fall back on. The authority structure might be gone but there are additional people for support. (I hope that's clear. I'm kind of top floaty.)

LadyPact -> RE: Loss of control (5/12/2013 2:56:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar You're acting like being in service to somebody, or being in a TPE isn't any different from having a relationship with somebody as an equal. Sorry, but that just isn't the case. When you enter in a relationship with somebody as their equal, you don't change yourself to accommodate their life, their wishes, and their will. Instead, you just merge the person that you are and remain to be into their life. I trimmed this down so I wouldn't repeat. As a military wife, I just can't agree with the above. It may not be his will or his wish when there's a deployment or a PCS move. That doesn't mean that I don't have to change Myself through those various events. Each place we've lived has had a different culture and I do have to change Myself from one place to the next. quote: With a slavery/TPE/whatever type dynamic that just isn't the case. In such a dynamic you don't enter as an equal, and for the duration of the dynamic, there are a lot of facets of you as an individual that you just do not get to express at all, in terms of managing yourself. It's perfectly possible, depending on the length of the relationship, to have the s-type completely out of practice on doing such things when the relationship ends. On part of this, I'm with you. Particularly the part about the length of time. I know that through the course of the thread most of this discussion has gone generally to the TPE angle. I'm more familiar with dynamics that are not instantaneous TPE 24/7 in the same household from day one. I would have to think one year of TPE isn't going to have the same hold on a person as ten years. quote: At that point telling them: "just go volunteer" or "keep your old routine" isn't a helpful suggestion, because self-management, self-direction of their time, goals and efforts is often precisely the thing the s-types miss the most of their old dynamic, and precisely the thing they're most out of practice doing. I don't think I mentioned volunteering during the course of this thread. I do happen to think it is a practical suggestion. Volunteering has some very positive benefits. Not only can it help a person feel a sense of purpose, it also takes the focus off of yourself. I can't say that I've ever volunteered anywhere that the experience didn't make Me more grateful for what I had or be an up close and personal demonstration that, however bad I thought My situation was, it absolutely was better than what some people face everyday. quote: It's all fine and dandy to tell somebody "just go out and do X it will slowly make it easier" but that doesn't mean that X is actually something attainable for them to do in the moment post an internal enslavement break up. I'm trying to look at this thread in various ways. In the moment? No. I don't expect anybody to take their own authority back in a day. Do I expect it to start as some time passes? Yes, I really do. The more time that passes, there are just plain some decisions that have to be made and in little steps, that is taking the authority back. A person may not particularly like that they are doing it, rather than the prior authority figure, but it might just help the person come to the realization that they are capable of it. quote: Do you seriously think that you can actively teach somebody to not choose for themselves, and instead let you choose for them, and that that will not have a debilitating effect post break up when it comes to them self-motivating and making their own choices? Debilitating wouldn't have been the word that I would use. Again, I think the greater effect would depend on the time frame. How much control has something to do with it, too. If there were still some areas of life, career for example, where the person maintained some of the decisions, I think that applies. quote: Do you really think a person can go from "yes I'll obey" to "yes I'll do what I" want overnight? I never once said overnight. I am of the opinion that it doesn't have to be forever. Sooner or later, life on life's terms is going to come into play and a submissive has to accomplish things, even to sustain their own existence.

chatterbox24 -> RE: Loss of control (5/12/2013 4:10:56 AM)
For those of you who know about my story since my posting history here, you are aware I started out as a cheating wife, who ran across her dom, in a very troubled time in her long term marriage. Instead of facing the problems at hand(I had tried managing them with failure), I looked for escapes to distract myself from the multiple problems at home. I had a few encounters in a 5 yr. period of time, basically affairs that included sex, but none of them filled the void and empty feeling that I had in my core. My husband was not aware of any of those affairs until I met my dom. Things had gotten so bad, with zero respect in the home, daily inconsistencies, that I was very ready to get a divorce, although I did still have feelings for my husband. The problem was my husband did not want a divorce. We also have two young children. This is when a over 2 yr. journey started of my involvement with my dom, as a blessing and a curse. Actually 3 yrs, but for the first year my husband was not aware the dom existed. The best I can describe my husbands and I relationship, are two s types, with me leading. What a mess and a laughable condition, in that period of time in our relationship. I was the dom in the relationship, until I met my ALpha, and I realized I wasn't a dom at all. None of what I was doing was making our life better, and I couldn't get a handle on the situation. IN the process the lying and cheating stopped, and full disclosure and honesty came out. It was not an easy transition, at first my husband fought the relationship then he accepted it for the most part. Although he and my dom, never met each other face to face, they spoke on the phone, and once everything was out in the open, this is when the healing process of our marriage took place. Of course there were some heated arguments at times, but we were taught how to respect each other more and lead a more consistant life. When I was going around having affairs, I thought sex was going to fill a void inside myself. What I found through meeting my dom was I was actually looking for mental support and leadership. Someone to direct me, think for me, give me answers to questions I could not answer or solve. My marriage was in such a state, I really didn't care about mending it at the time. My Alpha taught me and encouraged me to stay in the marriage, tough it out, work on it, and he was right, the state of my marriage has unbelievably improved. But through this time, a problem developed, I began to lose myself. I fell into a scarey place, an abyss of not thinking for myself. I had changes of character, and forced though processes, that while some where excellent, others were mortifying because it was causing turmoil inside me, and things were trying to be changed I didn't want to change within myself. I found myself asking for advice on everything, even the smallest things, I got to a place I felt like I was no longer me, but just an extension of another. Even with all the wonderful things that happened in this journey I could not deny the things between my dom and I's relationship, that was total incompatibility and total denial, and it wasn't making me happy. Totally giving up myself was not acceptable to me because giving that much power, I knew was going to put me in a position in the future of devastation. I knew if I was to lose him, and kept up the total control the relationship would have gone to far. I wanted to keep my own thoughts and still make decisions for myself and my family. I found myself losing that ability, it was distressing to me, and the incompatibilities with my dom sexually were also a problem I could not get past. Its been rough giving up that relationship, and I miss him every day, but I was with him long enough to learn how he usually thinks and I can apply that concept. I say to myself "What would the Alpha do?" I think before I react now. I owe him a lot, he actually saved my marriage. There was no way it was going to survive let alone flourish in the condition it was in at the time. I still love him but the relationship needed to end, because I didn't want to lose myself completely. I was interested in being a better decision maker I guess, rather then totally sink into complete TPE. I do believe for any sub, who has allowed themselves to get to that place of a long term TPE, it is in my opinion, the worst kind of break up to endure and an extremely painful struggle to get ones own power back. I do believe however, once they master finding themselves again, the strength they find within themselves is unstoppable. BTW, HAPPY MOTHERS DAY COLLARCHAT MOMS!!!

littleclip -> RE: Loss of control (5/12/2013 5:08:47 AM)
quote: . If the s-type has both a primary and a secondary relationship that are not connected, there is still the other relationship to fall back on. The authority structure might be gone but there are additional people for support. if the secondary is a vanilia relationship and the primary is D/s there is something to fall back on but not the structure and athority of the D/s dynamic and without the anchoring of D/s i can definatly see sub frenzy happening with the resultand unsafe decisions that entails. when the frenzy is not able to replace the structure and regret compounds the depression without some kind of support i fear that dark things could very well be the result

Missokyst -> RE: Loss of control (5/12/2013 6:37:23 AM)
There you go. I think it may be possible that it seems more intense for a submissive/slave because they accept that they lived under a structured life and it is impossible to be whole again. My grandmother said you pick up and move on because life didn't stop because your heart was broken. The thing is that people used to have the ability to mourn knowing that some things were part of life. They could be more stoic because life had to get on. I am sure she had the thought, "what am I going to do?", but the reality was she had a new situation to which she had to accept and adapt. When my relationship ended with the first man I ever loved I cried for a month. There was no one to talk to about it and I felt no one could understand so I kept to myself. No family. No internet. No howling into the wind because life had to go on. I still had to work. I still had to function. There was no thought of "what do I do now that someone is not there to tell me what to do." I cried. I picked myself up. I survived. Why? I think it was because I did this before the net told me how much deeper ds was than nilla.. and how our pain was more valid than those regular nilla people. quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Without knowing your grandmother, I could not speak for her. Perhaps you could ask her how hard it was? I know my mother's first husband died in a car accident, leaving her with a toddler and one on the way. As she often says when she speaks about that time "I didnt have time to mourn, I had children to feed". I do think that many women in that same situation find within their children a replacement focus, a reason to continue to serve, the focus is just switched. Would they do as well on their own?

tazzygirl -> RE: Loss of control (5/12/2013 9:14:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Missokyst There you go. I think it may be possible that it seems more intense for a submissive/slave because they accept that they lived under a structured life and it is impossible to be whole again. My grandmother said you pick up and move on because life didn't stop because your heart was broken. The thing is that people used to have the ability to mourn knowing that some things were part of life. They could be more stoic because life had to get on. I am sure she had the thought, "what am I going to do?", but the reality was she had a new situation to which she had to accept and adapt. When my relationship ended with the first man I ever loved I cried for a month. There was no one to talk to about it and I felt no one could understand so I kept to myself. No family. No internet. No howling into the wind because life had to go on. I still had to work. I still had to function. There was no thought of "what do I do now that someone is not there to tell me what to do." I cried. I picked myself up. I survived. Why? I think it was because I did this before the net told me how much deeper ds was than nilla.. and how our pain was more valid than those regular nilla people. quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Without knowing your grandmother, I could not speak for her. Perhaps you could ask her how hard it was? I know my mother's first husband died in a car accident, leaving her with a toddler and one on the way. As she often says when she speaks about that time "I didnt have time to mourn, I had children to feed". I do think that many women in that same situation find within their children a replacement focus, a reason to continue to serve, the focus is just switched. Would they do as well on their own? To the bolded part. I think you are imagining someone who simply cannot function on any level. I dont believe that is the case, certainly was not for me. I still worked, I still slept, I still cleaned. I do know women who couldnt at first, even with kids. I wasnt "broken hearted". But I still had that loss. My schedule went to pot. Beyond the necessities of life (and, yes, you might be surprised to know they are not the same for everyone) I simply didnt care. They were no longer a priority. My own self improvement stagnated. I was still a valued employee at both of my jobs, but even they could tell the difference. In other words, my loss was related to the loss of structure. Not because a man I loved walked out of my life. I did the leaving, emotionally I was well prepared on that front. What I wasnt prepared for was the loss for the reason of my focus and drive.

tazzygirl -> RE: Loss of control (5/12/2013 9:21:01 AM)
quote: I think the post from Missokyst is more where I'm getting some of My thoughts from. Unless a person is completely in the home with no other responsibilities (school, work, kids) you've still got some things that you have to accomplish that aren't dynamic dependent. That's going to be the stuff that grounds you. Maybe we are looking at it from two different perspectives. You from the emotional side and Me from routines of day to day living. Thats just it. It wasnt an "emotional" pain. I wasnt heart broken. I was prepared, having already left, emotionally, from the relationship. quote: Also, just as a point, I'm wondering if you are looking a poly from a singular type of reference. Since we have a lot of unicorn hunters around here, I'm sure that's the first thing that folks think of when it comes to poly. That's not all situations. There are s/s couples that will still be together when the Dominant exits their lives. There are people with relationships outside of the poly group that they join. If the s-type has both a primary and a secondary relationship that are not connected, there is still the other relationship to fall back on. The authority structure might be gone but there are additional people for support. And yet, for me, it was the authority, the structure, that I felt utterly lost without.

Missokyst -> RE: Loss of control (5/12/2013 9:52:10 AM)
This is still not different because you happen to have lived in a ds relationship. My grandmother just existed until she healed. She supported and raised her kids (with my dads help) and did nothing else until she moved on and eventually met and married the man I considered my grandfather. And then she thrived! She went from being a cook to owning her own restaurant. When my relationship ended I stopped doing everything that made me happy. I stopped making dolls. I stopped painting and writing. I was.. empty. It took years to recover. That was a "ME" thing. Not because I am submissive but because I am human. How we react to a breakup is on our personality. That may have something to do with having a submissive persona, OR it might just be because that is the way we are programmed to react. D/s or nilla, we are still dealing with humans. Pain is still pain. And the pain of failure HURTS if you need it to hurt. Totally different than when I split from my husband.. I went out and partied like there was no tomorrow. quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl I think you are imagining someone who simply cannot function on any level. I dont believe that is the case, certainly was not for me. I still worked, I still slept, I still cleaned. I do know women who couldnt at first, even with kids. I wasnt "broken hearted". But I still had that loss. My schedule went to pot. Beyond the necessities of life (and, yes, you might be surprised to know they are not the same for everyone) I simply didnt care. They were no longer a priority. My own self improvement stagnated. I was still a valued employee at both of my jobs, but even they could tell the difference. In other words, my loss was related to the loss of structure. Not because a man I loved walked out of my life. I did the leaving, emotionally I was well prepared on that front. What I wasnt prepared for was the loss for the reason of my focus and drive.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Loss of control (5/12/2013 9:57:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar You're acting like being in service to somebody, or being in a TPE isn't any different from having a relationship with somebody as an equal. Sorry, but that just isn't the case. When you enter in a relationship with somebody as their equal, you don't change yourself to accommodate their life, their wishes, and their will. Instead, you just merge the person that you are and remain to be into their life. I trimmed this down so I wouldn't repeat. As a military wife, I just can't agree with the above. It may not be his will or his wish when there's a deployment or a PCS move. That doesn't mean that I don't have to change Myself through those various events. Each place we've lived has had a different culture and I do have to change Myself from one place to the next. Are you, as a military wife, in a TPE relationship with your husband? Does he control your every choice? How on Earth is being married to an equal who happens to have a demanding job the same as being in an unequal TPE relationship in which the base premise is that you're not allowed to make your own choices? quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar With a slavery/TPE/whatever type dynamic that just isn't the case. In such a dynamic you don't enter as an equal, and for the duration of the dynamic, there are a lot of facets of you as an individual that you just do not get to express at all, in terms of managing yourself. It's perfectly possible, depending on the length of the relationship, to have the s-type completely out of practice on doing such things when the relationship ends. On part of this, I'm with you. Particularly the part about the length of time. I know that through the course of the thread most of this discussion has gone generally to the TPE angle. I'm more familiar with dynamics that are not instantaneous TPE 24/7 in the same household from day one. I would have to think one year of TPE isn't going to have the same hold on a person as ten years. Of course one year isn't going to be the same as ten years. But that still leaves the fact that when somebody enters a relationship under the premise that they're no longer responsible/allowed to make their own choices, there is going to be a mental change in them that's going to still be in effect after the relationship ends. Whether that's after one year or ten. Expecting a person to pick up and go on as there hasn't been such a change is ludicrous. It would devaluate the whole idea of a TPE relationship for starters. If you assume that a slave in a TPE relationship is still a self-governing, autonomously acting human being, then what exactly is the point in trying to train them to act as if they're not? And if they're not a self-governing, autonomously acting human being, and have been specifically trained to further that state, why would you assume they can just flip that switch back the way it was after a relationship? quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar At that point telling them: "just go volunteer" or "keep your old routine" isn't a helpful suggestion, because self-management, self-direction of their time, goals and efforts is often precisely the thing the s-types miss the most of their old dynamic, and precisely the thing they're most out of practice doing. I don't think I mentioned volunteering during the course of this thread. I do happen to think it is a practical suggestion. Volunteering has some very positive benefits. Not only can it help a person feel a sense of purpose, it also takes the focus off of yourself. I can't say that I've ever volunteered anywhere that the experience didn't make Me more grateful for what I had or be an up close and personal demonstration that, however bad I thought My situation was, it absolutely was better than what some people face everyday. I'm sorry, I guess I didn't realize you where a TPE slave who has her choices, time, and goals managed for her. I always sorta assumed that you where in control of your own time, and self-directed your life based of your own willpower and motivations. If that's the case, then maybe I'm wrong with slaves often not having the internal fortitude to make themselves do what's best for them after a TPE relationship. If that's not the case, and you don't stop self-directing just because you're in a relationship, then how exactly is your ease at volunteering relevant to how easy or hard a thing it is to do for somebody who has been actively trained to NOT make their own choices and self-direct their time? quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtarIt's all fine and dandy to tell somebody "just go out and do X it will slowly make it easier" but that doesn't mean that X is actually something attainable for them to do in the moment post an internal enslavement break up. I'm trying to look at this thread in various ways. In the moment? No. I don't expect anybody to take their own authority back in a day. Do I expect it to start as some time passes? Yes, I really do. The more time that passes, there are just plain some decisions that have to be made and in little steps, that is taking the authority back. A person may not particularly like that they are doing it, rather than the prior authority figure, but it might just help the person come to the realization that they are capable of it. Of course it starts to happen after time passes. But it's not as simple as just a mere "Oh you miss your routine? Just stick to it after the relationship ends until you feel better." Somebody who has been actively expected to not rely on themselves to direct their choices and time cannot make themselves stick to a routine until AFTER they feel better and are starting to learn again to self-direct. You telling them that they should do exactly that which they cannot do, in order to relearn how to do it isn't good advice. It's reenforcing to their self-image on how bad they've become exactly at self-directing such things. Making a schedule for yourself again, self-managing your time, and self-enforcing internal expectations upon yourself again are the hardest things for a person coming out of a TPE. It's the things that they miss most about the power dynamic, and it's the things they're least capable of picking up again as they where before they entered the TPE. Telling them "well just do the thing you feel you're incapable of doing right now" doesn't work. It only reenforces their feeling of failure at being unable to do precisely that. quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtarDo you seriously think that you can actively teach somebody to not choose for themselves, and instead let you choose for them, and that that will not have a debilitating effect post break up when it comes to them self-motivating and making their own choices? Debilitating wouldn't have been the word that I would use. Again, I think the greater effect would depend on the time frame. How much control has something to do with it, too. If there were still some areas of life, career for example, where the person maintained some of the decisions, I think that applies. Debilitating is EXACTLY the word I'd use. When you actively teach somebody to replace their reflex to decide for themselves, with having you decide for them instead, you stopping to decide for them is going to have debilitating effects. These effects will wear off over time. And they will be more or less sever depending on the length of the relationship. But any time you teach a person to rely on you to make decisions for them, and you then withdraw yourself and expect them to again make decisions for themselves, they're going to be debilitated by their lack of capability to easily make decisions for themselves, at least for a while. quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar Do you really think a person can go from "yes I'll obey" to "yes I'll do what I" want overnight? I never once said overnight. I am of the opinion that it doesn't have to be forever. Sooner or later, life on life's terms is going to come into play and a submissive has to accomplish things, even to sustain their own existence. You didn't say overnight, granted. But it's been your position from the start of this thread that it's not the top's responsibility to make the transition period easier, if that's hard on them. Sorry, but that just isn't the case. If you enter in a TPE with somebody as the dominant, you take on the responsibility for the fact that you're debilitating the submissive's abilities to make choices for themselves, by actively training them to depend on your for guidance and direction. You are making something harder to do without your input, and you're doing it on purpose. That responsibility doesn't just fly out of the window because you decided things aren't working out. Granted, sometimes submissives make it impossible for you to give them the support they need, and sometimes giving them that support will actually make the transition harder on them, by prolonging their feeling that things may change back to the way they where, instead of them taking your help in moving on. But whether or not it's the right or the wrong thing in any specific case to aid the submissive in the transition, or subtract yourself completely from the doesn't really matter to the point I'm trying to make. And that point is that it's STILL your responsibility that they are having issues picking up their live and getting back in the habit of self-direction it. You are the one who has actively trained them to become less capable at doing exactly what they need to do to get over a break up. You are the one who has actively trained them to become more dependent on you for guidance and support. You are the one who has actively trained them to become less self-reliant when it comes to directing their own time, choices and goals. You are responsible for the trouble they are having adapting back to a life without you. How you think that responsibility is best served (either by helping them or subtracting yourself) doesn't matter. The fact still remains that ending a TPE doesn't end the scope of what issues in the submissive's life are problems they are having directly because of the choices you made. Pretending like that isn't the case is self-deciet.

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