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RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/24/2013 5:49:21 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

Wow. A flounce and retreat.

I was really looking forward to the intellectual contortions you were going to try out to somehow still approve of one kind of politically motivated murder but not another.


Precisely the same challenge was put to you in post #94:
quote:

I'm glad to hear you condemn intentional murders. So I am looking forward to hearing you condemn the IDF murderers of 2 tiny Palestinian girls covered in this BBC video report:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krlnS6hcxTI

The two girls were deliberately shot by one IDF thug while his mates enjoyed munching on chocolates. A third sister was also shot but survived. Tragically she is crippled for life and will never walk again. The children's grandmother was also shot during the murders. Yes, as you say, "intentionally targeting innocents for murder is not noble no matter what".

Of course, should you fail to condemn the IDF for this slaughter, which occurred while the girls were under a white flag, the internationally recognised sign of surrender, you will have demonstrated once again that any principles you may have go by the wayside when it comes to defending the terrorist State of Israel. And that sadly, the noble sentiments you expressed above are simply empty words of political expedience.


Your response thus far has been a deafening silence. Is there any reason not to conclude that your position is "simply empty words of political expedience"?

Are you a fucking moron?
Can you not read plain fucking english?
What part of "Actual innocent children dying in IDF actions is tragic" did you have trouble understanding?

However in this case I can find nothing but the Palestinian claim. Without independent verification I always assume Hamas is lying as should you.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 121
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/24/2013 6:37:08 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

Wow. A flounce and retreat.

I was really looking forward to the intellectual contortions you were going to try out to somehow still approve of one kind of politically motivated murder but not another.


Precisely the same challenge was put to you in post #94:
quote:

I'm glad to hear you condemn intentional murders. So I am looking forward to hearing you condemn the IDF murderers of 2 tiny Palestinian girls covered in this BBC video report:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krlnS6hcxTI

The two girls were deliberately shot by one IDF thug while his mates enjoyed munching on chocolates. A third sister was also shot but survived. Tragically she is crippled for life and will never walk again. The children's grandmother was also shot during the murders. Yes, as you say, "intentionally targeting innocents for murder is not noble no matter what".

Of course, should you fail to condemn the IDF for this slaughter, which occurred while the girls were under a white flag, the internationally recognised sign of surrender, you will have demonstrated once again that any principles you may have go by the wayside when it comes to defending the terrorist State of Israel. And that sadly, the noble sentiments you expressed above are simply empty words of political expedience.


Your response thus far has been a deafening silence. Is there any reason not to conclude that your position is "simply empty words of political expedience"?

Are you a fucking moron?
Can you not read plain fucking english?
What part of "Actual innocent children dying in IDF actions is tragic" did you have trouble understanding?

However in this case I can find nothing but the Palestinian claim. Without independent verification I always assume Hamas is lying as should you.


Your pathetic platitude "Actual innocent children dying in IDF actions is tragic" was posted BEFORE I put the challenge to you in post # 94. To pretend that it is a response to the challenge put to you is delusory, to put it mildly.

And please maintain some civility - or are you resorting to your standard tactic of getting a thread shut down as soon as you lose the argument?.

It would appear that you refuse to condemn the IDF murders, instead introducing a red herring of alleging Hamas involvement without any evidence whatsoever. The BBC report didn't mention Hamas. It relied entirely on the evidence of the family members.

Readers of this thread will judge for themselves after viewing the video. You have made your position clear - murder is OK as long as it's done by the IDF. It's only the other sides murders you find objectionable. Hypocrisy in its most refined form.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 5/24/2013 6:38:40 PM >

_____________________________



(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 122
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/24/2013 6:45:19 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Your pathetic platitude "Actual innocent children dying in IDF actions is tragic" was posted BEFORE I put the challenge to you in post # 94. To pretend that it is a response to the challenge put to you is delusory, to put it mildly.

And please maintain some civility - or are you resorting to your standard tactic of getting a thread shut down as soon as you lose the argument?.

It would appear that you refuse to condemn the IDF murders, instead introducing a red herring of alleging Hamas involvement without any evidence whatsoever. The BBC report didn't mention Hamas. It relied entirely on the evidence of the family members.

Readers of this thread will judge for themselves after viewing the video. You have made your position clear - murder is OK as long as it's done by the IDF. It's only the other sides murders you find objectionable. Hypocrisy in its most refined form.

I wrote what I wrote before you made your little whine so I had no need to repeat myself.

The video shows an uncorroborated claim. The BBC reporter even gaveyou the clue that something wasn't kosher. Did you not catch it? He kept repeating how all the stories matched up on all the details. That is never how true events are reported by witnesses.

Why precisely do you always believe Hamas?

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 123
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/24/2013 7:11:33 PM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline 		The war on drugs is easily stopped. Just legalize it.
The war on terror is over when we loose our oil dependency.
Its the only thing muslims got goin for themselves. Without oil there would be no muslim threat. They would go back to sheepherding.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 124
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/24/2013 7:25:29 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Rock throwing is not violent unless someone is hit. Violence in itself is nowhere in the US punishable by death. Domestic violence for example has never resulted in a death penalty unless homicide was commited, and maybe not even then. The killing by a kid throwing rocks is immoral and an over-reach of police authority. Basically, it is police brutality imo.

A thrown rock can kill. A slinged or sling shot rock can be very dangerous. Depending on the circumstance using lethal force in response might well be legal as self defence.

Self-defense when you are carrying loaded weapons in an occupied zone? Give me a break. The kids are not the aggressors under those circumstances.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 125
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/24/2013 8:11:10 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		So in your opinion there is no right or need for these soldiers to be in these areas?

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 126
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/24/2013 8:39:00 PM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline 		No the kids are not the aggressors the parents are! SHOOT THE PARENTS!
If my kid was hurling stones he would get a severe beating at home.
The palestine parents applaud it... Good boy! throw rock at jewrusalem good very good, wallaaah akbar!

< Message edited by MrBukani -- 5/24/2013 8:41:13 PM >

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 127
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/24/2013 10:28:51 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

More than anything else, it is an act of resistance and defiance, an assertion that 'we are here and we are not going anywhere else'. Which is why it's intolerable for the IDF, and the Israeli Govt which seems to insist on total capitulation on all levels by the Palestinians. It is a direct challenge to Israeli ethnic cleansing which aims to drive the Palestinians off their lands and to absorb the West bank into Israel proper.


One of your better analyses.

Sometimes, you can't win, and defiance is the next best thing.

quote:

It would be an act of criminal negligence to deploy troops to the West Bank with out some training in crowd control.


My thoughts, too. I mean, they have less-lethal options (though, under the circumstances, I'm fairly sure the threshold for using them would be very low, so they would end up becoming an addition to killing, rather than a substitute, just like the availability of tasers has led to more tasings but not fewer shootings).

When the Afghans were throwing rocks at the Norwegian ISAF detachment (and these were adults, not teenagers, nor did they exactly confine themselves to rocks), our troops usually did precisely what they had been trained to do, which is to stand their ground, with shields and other gear, keeping their position safe while trying to calm things down, without firing at the civilians.

Part of the reason for this was the recognition that we, as the occupying force, were the aggressors here.

Part of it was, military forces shouldn't fire at civilians, except as a last resort measure of self defense.

And part of it was that we knew that firing at the crowd would come back to bite us in the ass later.

The IDF could stand to bear those three things in mind, as they all apply in Palestine.

quote:

So it's difficult to avoid concluding that the IDF responses are calculated, that the IDF and Israeli Govt see some advantage in using lethal force against Palestinian youths.


It keeps the Palestinians aggressive and violent, making it easier to curry sympathy and also easier to excuse their excess, even though they have options the Palestinians don't (and refuse to use those options). It also keeps the hard liners happy. Let's bear in mind, fundamentalism and nationalism aren't confined to Arabs or Muslims or whatever. Zero tolerance is a phrase that gets a lot of smiles in various quarters, unless one is on the receiving end of it.

quote:

As such it could contravene the Geneva Conventions, and constitute a war crime.


All that remains for it to be, is for the war crimes tribunals to recognize Palestine as a state, which they don't yet dare for fear of retaliation from the US, which has- under Obama- repeatedly threatened to withdraw support and/or funding for any international arenas of cooperation that don't play along with the US domestic policy of supporting Israel (let's also be clear that this is domestic policy, not international policy, as was stated clearly by the US representative to the UN).

The UN has accorded Palestine recognition as a state, so it's only a matter of time before Israel will have to face the music, but they and the US will fight to keep that from happening as long as possible, of course. When it eventually does happen, Israel will of course pretend they've been on board with the idea from the very beginning, as will the US, and by then, the relevant parties will have been prepped as scapegoats to carry off the sins of their respective governments, as is the ancient Jewish custom (la-azaɂzeyl). Let's hope it's as good for the international community as the original ritual was for the communities in which it was practiced.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 128
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/24/2013 10:44:39 PM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline 		Essentially you both are trying to reason out here, Israhel is the root of the war on terror.




(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 129
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/24/2013 10:45:30 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

So in your opinion there is no right or need for these soldiers to be in these areas?


There's two ways to analyze the situation.

One. The Israeli nation is militarily occupying the territories of the Palestine nation, and is the aggressor in a war, and is engaged in brutal oppression and borderline genocide (borderline only because it's slow and based heavily on attirition), ignoring rules of engagement and international law as regards things like the rights of occupied territories and the rights of prisoners of war.

This view places them squarely in the role of the bad guy, and justifies a response by the civilians and military of Palestine.

Two. The Zionists inherited the fellahin slave caste (serfs, in Western terminology) from the landowners from which they bought the land that became Israel, and are now facing the same ethnic/class conflict that every other nation has faced at some point, and are using violence to hold on to the preferred situation, the same way most other nations have, without picking up any of the hard lessons learned by nations that have already resolved their problem.

Note that the Israeli are a minority in "their own" nation in this perspective, and that universal suffrage (Palestinians would be a voting majority on their own) and equal rights (education, healthcare, welfare and so forth are extensive in Israel, but not extended to the Palestinians; also the Palestinians don't make much money, nor do they receive equal pay, being largely treated- and paid- as slave labor) would mean turning the country upside down.

Either way, no, those soldiers shouldn't be there in the first place.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 130
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/24/2013 10:53:19 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline 		PLONK misread his post LOL

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 5/24/2013 10:57:18 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 131
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/25/2013 12:34:25 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

The video shows an uncorroborated claim. The BBC reporter even gaveyou the clue that something wasn't kosher. Did you not catch it? He kept repeating how all the stories matched up on all the details. That is never how true events are reported by witnesses.

So eyewitness accounts that match cannot to be believed simply because they match. Or so DK seems to be claiming.

The 3 different family members - the father the uncle and the grandmother - all telling the same story about the same incident are telling lies because their accounts are the same! By this tortuous 'logic', stories are only credible if eye witness accounts differ or contradict each other! We also have to accept that the BBC is the willing dupe of Hamas. Is there any one out there stupid and gullible enough to believe this?

Of course their accounts match - they all witnessed the same brutal murders carried out nonchalantly by an IDF thug. The grandmother has a bullet wound to corroborate her story. What DomKen's attempt to whitewash these murders illustrates is the extraordinary lengths fanatical Zionists go to in order to persuade themselves and others that "Israel can do no wrong". (Just as an aside, does any American here remember this story making the US media?)

What emerges clearly here is the double standard being applied by Zionists - murders by the IDF are OK, not worthy of comment or to be taken seriously while murders by Palestinian resistance groups are the most heinous crimes imaginable ... blah blah blah. As I noted above, hypocrisy at its purest.

All up some 1,500 Palestinian children have been killed by the IDF since 2000, many of them in circumstances as blatantly culpable as this. Zionists want us to believe that all of that 1500 were shot while throwing stones at the IDF. Many were but many more were shot in their homes, at mosques, while playing or simply walking down the streets of their villages. Not a single Israeli Jewish IDF member has faced charges over these killings.

Is it a coincidence that these deaths happen while Israel conducts low to mid intensity ethnic cleansing to drive the Palestinians off their ancestral lands and to take over the entire West Bank for itself? One would have to be moronic to believe that. How can any one believe that all these deaths are 1500 "tragic byproducts of military operations"? Apart from the unspeakable grief of the families involved, their most likely effect is to generate many more recruits for Hamas.

These 1500 deaths of innocents are witness to the ruthlessness of the Israeli project to take over the West Bank, to dispossess and drive the rightful owners out. They demonstrate how 'wars on terrorism' actually create terrorists, not defeat them. They underline the horror of foreign military occupation, and why such occupations inevitably create far more terrorists than they destroy.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 5/25/2013 12:44:39 AM >

_____________________________



(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 132
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/25/2013 2:24:28 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

The video shows an uncorroborated claim. The BBC reporter even gaveyou the clue that something wasn't kosher. Did you not catch it? He kept repeating how all the stories matched up on all the details. That is never how true events are reported by witnesses.

So eyewitness accounts that match cannot to be believed simply because they match. Or so DK seems to be claiming.

The 3 different family members - the father the uncle and the grandmother - all telling the same story about the same incident are telling lies because their accounts are the same! By this tortuous 'logic', stories are only credible if eye witness accounts differ or contradict each other! We also have to accept that the BBC is the willing dupe of Hamas. Is there any one out there stupid and gullible enough to believe this?

Yes, the western media are willing dupes of Hamas. Try watching the documentary Pallywood.

You believe Hamas who are proven liars of the worst sort. I am skeptical of all wild claims,.

Go talk to a real investigator or even a decent psychiatrist and they will tell you that eyewitness accounts always differ significantly. The only time such accounts agree on everything is when they are rehearsed.

BTW I am not a zionist and since you equate that word with racism you are breaking the forums rules.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 133
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/25/2013 11:27:54 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

squarely in the role of the bad guy, and justifies a response by the civilians and military of Palestine.


I thought you and tweak have been saying that there is no military and it is always Israel against innocent helpless citizens....what crap

It all goes back to a legal mandate for a Jewish homeland endorsed by the United Nations with the blessing of Arab rulers in the area at that time, even if the agreement was quickly denied and reneged upon.

The resulting war instigated by Arab states against a helpless population of Jews... sound familiar... horribly backfired on them. The Jews justifiably captured and occupied militarily important land over multiple aggressions.

Now I believe the Jews are taking their revenge and in doing so are alienating sympathy for their cause throughout the world. Just as Arab aggression led to disaster for them the Israeli aggression will spell disaster for them as well.

Nothing good and permanent can come from the actions of either side. They are both spiraling into hell in a death grip.

What good is the rhetoric you and tweak are constantly spewing...pointing out atrocities of one side...justified... while ignoring atrocities by the other... almost to the point of being anti-Semitic.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 5/25/2013 11:38:25 AM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 134
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/25/2013 11:59:53 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I could understand your positions if there were overwhelming pro Israeli sympathies on these boards but as far as I can see this is not the case. I see only a few trying to counter your one-sided views and bring balance and reality to the subject.

Imagine yourselves in a position to bring peace to the region through negotiations. Now in that position what would you think of the type of rhetoric you and tweak would bring to the table?

I don’t expect or want the atrocities to be ignored…I want them to stop. Do you really believe if given the same power that Israel’s enemies would not kill in kind? Hell they are trying their best to do just that.

If I had my way a multinational UN force would be dispatch to disarm all involved and set the various representatives in a room and keep them there until an agreement could be reached where both groups could live in peace.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 5/25/2013 12:10:52 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 135
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/25/2013 2:09:54 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		kdsub,

«[...] almost to the point of being anti-Semitic» is way over the line.

I'm discussing the State of Israel, not the Jewish people. Those two entities must not be conflated. The Jewish people, I have no problem with. For instance, Noam Chomsky is a pretty decent fellow, it seems. The State of Israel, I do have a problem with.

If you care to continue this exchange, or any other involving me, your accusation calls for an apology.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 136
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/25/2013 3:09:27 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I don't wish to continue a discussion so no apology will be forthcoming. We have no common ground...those that read all the posts in this thread will make up their own minds as to your impartiality and mine....Rather than argue I'll just let you and tweak make my point.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 137
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/25/2013 3:37:07 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		Fair enough, Butch.

As noted in PM, you're joining DomKen on ignore now, and I suggest you return the favor.

I wish you well,
— Aswad.

< Message edited by Aswad -- 5/25/2013 3:38:19 PM >

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 138
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/25/2013 3:56:20 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		And I wish you well...Ignore is a good way to get the last word... you may have it.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 5/25/2013 3:57:02 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/25/2013 4:41:32 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

Yes, the western media are willing dupes of Hamas.


Hilarious claim. So, the entire western media (whose pro-Israel bias has been repeatedly demonstrated) are "willing of dupes of Hamas". Apparently you want us to believe that you, a resident of Chicago, who may never have visited the Middle East knows better. The only thing demonstrated by this claim is the extent of denial by fanatical Zionists about the excesses of their precious Israel and its murderous IDF. Any one making a claim like this has no credibility on this issue.

quote:

I am not a zionist

About as credible as the claim I have just considered above. Everything you have posted on this issue is in absolute agreement with the official looney Right Israeli line. When you continuously talk like an ultra-Zionist and churn out the talking points and mantras of the ultra-Zionists, you give people little option but to conclude you are an ultra-Zionist. Again, that you maintain this charade of not being a Zionist tells us all we need to know about the honesty of your posts on this issue. This claim destroys whatever shreds of credibility might have survived the previous claim.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 5/25/2013 4:44:15 PM >

_____________________________



(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 140
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