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RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/21/2013 5:10:37 PM   
deathtothepixies


Posts: 683
Joined: 2/19/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

They had no economy, we do. They couldn't borrow what they need. we can. The idea that these small affairs will somehow economically or socially be the ruination of America...is ridiculous.

you seem very sure, how much do you want to borrow?

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/21/2013 5:39:02 PM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

I don't know that we overreacted to Communist aggression,


Could you be a bit more specific as to "communist aggression"


I was mainly responding to Vincent's post where he mentioned that "history will judge if we over-reacted to the threat of Communist aggression or if we didn't have sense enough to take our marbles and go home soon enough."

Our political and military leadership during the Cold War believed that there was such a thing as Communist aggression, although I suppose it's a debatable point. My point, however, was related to America's response to perceived Communist aggression and how it has contributed to our current crises in the Middle East.

Are you suggesting that the idea of "Communist aggression" was a lie propagated by the U.S. government? If not, would you agree that the U.S. overreacted to it? I think that's one of the key points here, since we need to ask: Were the Communists really an aggressive enemy out to destroy the U.S. (as so many Cold Warriors of the era seemed to think)? Or was it all just a sham to justify American aggression in the world? Or were both the Americans and the Soviets equally aggressive and evil?





quote:


quote:

but I think our policy in that area was inconsistent and contradictory. It seemed that our government couldn't make up its mind whether to shit or get off the pot. Containment was a policy that led to many strange bedfellows.

Honestly speaking, I think our current enemies would have respected us more if we just engaged in open warfare and conquest against Communist nations,


Korea and viet nam were such popular body bag lottos I remain unconvinced that there would be much interest in a body bag lotto of such grand proportions.


Yes, that's the usual explanation which is given, and most Americans seemed to accept it. But would other parts of the world see it the same way? If Al Qaeda is equally unconvinced that there would be much interest in a body bag lotto of such grand proportions, then wouldn't they see that as a sign of weakness and think they might be able to win? Isn't that the strategy the Vietnamese used?

There was a far bigger "body bag lotto" during World War II, but Americans kept their interest all the way to unconditional surrender. We lost even more in the Civil War.

quote:


quote:

rather than limited wars, wars by proxy, and all that covert bullshit that the CIA became famous for. At least it would be more honest. Rigging elections, staging military coups, puppet governments, and war by proxy just looks so dishonorable, weak, and cowardly. That's how they see us, and that's why they think they can win against us.


So the thing in the sand box is all fixed and we can build that pipe line and everything is like "mellow"?


No, I don't think so.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/21/2013 6:47:55 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

You can't have it both ways... if you say the same facts are perceived more than one way you are agreeing with me...How facts are presented will always depend on the view point of the presenter and that presenter's viewpoint depends on his or her audience. Why can't you understand this? When you read facts they are always filtered through your view point... Does that mean what you are saying on this thread is propaganda just because you choose to present your facts to the readers of this thread from your viewpoint? Or is it propaganda from me and only truth from you?

OMG, no! If the presenter's viewpoint is not independent the presenter is just a whore giving her clients what they demand.

Anything presented to persuade others is propaganda if only one side of the issue is available. The Palestinian side is rarely represented in the American media.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/21/2013 8:27:35 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

There is a definite difference between young men "throwing stones" (actually that is using very dangerous slingshots in many cases), and a child being used to murder civilians.


Interesting to note a significant shift in your position. It began by calling the IDF killings of Palestinian children "children dying as a tragic byproduct of military operations". Now there's an implied defence of those killings which suggests the IDF killers were acting in self defence. The image of one of the world's most feared, technologically advanced and well-armed armies needing to kill children in 'self defence' would be laughable, if the circumstances were not so tragic.

Are the IDF killings systematic? The numbers suggest they are - it is difficult for anyone to make the same mistake 1500 times. Soldiers at the Gaza borders are under standing orders to kill any one who strays within the ill-defined (and like any Israeli 'border' constantly shifting) no go zone at the border. I have previously posted video of an Israeli tank firing live shells at stone throwing Palestinian youths (in self defence .... or a deliberate intent to kill ???) There are several vids of such incidents on YouTube if any one wants to look.

Numerous children have been shot in their beds (often occurring during 'planned assassination' read: murder) operations. Or inside their houses ... or outside mosques. Or in a field while tending their crops or livestock. Or during demonstrations. In fact just about anywhere. There are no safe places for Palestinian children while the IDF is in the area.

To get an idea of the scale involved here, let's transfer the stats to the USA, and imagine the US police and black youths in conflict. The IDF has managed to kill a Palestinian child on average once every 2-3 days over the 13 years since 2000. Assuming the US black population to be 20% of the US population of c330 million, there would be approx 66 million blacks, or eleven times the Palestinian population (of the West bank and Gaza) of c6 million. A rough equivalence would be in the range of 3-4 black children killed daily.

It's easy to imagine what the reaction would be if the US police killed 3 or 4 black children every day over a 13 year period. Mass riots, entire cities ablaze, ghettoes turned into no-go zones, retaliatory shootings of police and whites, political uproar ..... killings of children on this scale would be intolerable. Yet in Israel, there is no fuss about these killings. There are no inquiries, there are no arrest of culpible IDF killers, there are no protests - children are being slaughtered on a routine basis and there is absolutely nothing being done to stop it. One can easily imagine the howls of legitimate outrage from the Israeli population if the situations were reversed and it was Israeli children being killed ......

So perhaps you do have a point when you suggest that there are differences. Child suicide bombers are a particularly obnoxious crime, a crime that has occurred on a handful of occasions years ago and has since (thankfully) ceased.

The equally callous IDF murders of Palestinian children are ongoing quasi-systematic crimes that have resulted in 1500 dead children with more deaths to be expected. There are no signs of it ceasing, or of bringing any culpable IDF thugs to justice. It is designed to instill terror into the indigenous population, which is an integral part of the larger ongoing ethnic cleansing of the West Bank. It is conducted in a environment of complete impunity to justice - to the best of my knowledge, not a single IDF thug has faced charges of any kind in relation to the killings of Palestinian children. Not only do the guilty thugs get off scot free, they actually get paid for their 'work' and are ready to do the same thing the next day if required.

One dead child is one too many. No amount of spin can explain away the killings of 1500 innocent children. So apologists for Israel have no grounds on which to criticise others for killing children when they remain silent, or even worse, try to defend the IDF when the IDF does exactly the same with such despair-inducing regularity.

/end of derail

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 5/21/2013 9:03:10 PM >

_____________________________



(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/22/2013 9:39:27 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

Numerous children have been shot in their beds (often occurring during 'planned assassination' read: murder) operations. Or inside their houses ... or outside mosques. Or in a field while tending their crops or livestock. Or during demonstrations. In fact just about anywhere. There are no safe places for Palestinian children while the IDF is in the area.

Tragic information. Excellent post, Tweakabelle.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/22/2013 10:16:18 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

There is a definite difference between young men "throwing stones" (actually that is using very dangerous slingshots in many cases), and a child being used to murder civilians.


Interesting to note a significant shift in your position. It began by calling the IDF killings of Palestinian children "children dying as a tragic byproduct of military operations". Now there's an implied defence of those killings which suggests the IDF killers were acting in self defence. The image of one of the world's most feared, technologically advanced and well-armed armies needing to kill children in 'self defence' would be laughable, if the circumstances were not so tragic.

You made a claim, actually simply put you spread a knowing lie, that tries to make teenagers attacking soldiers with slings and slingshots into little kids throwing stones. I reponded to it.

Actual innocent children dying in IDF actions is tragic. Killing young men who attack soldiers with the intent to kill is simply self defence.

Now you try and portray my statments as if I was cheerleading the IDF slaughtering 5 year olds. Your bigotry and hatred blinds you to the actual facts on the ground. I do have to ask why do you believe Hamas?

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/22/2013 2:55:26 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

[...] that tries to make teenagers attacking soldiers with slings and slingshots into little kids throwing stones.


Have you seen the kind of armor the IDF wears?

Teenagers using slings and slingshots (incidentally, the IDF states that most stones are thrown by hand, including most of those that have done harm) against the IDF forces is exactly on par with little kids throwing stones at a normal adult that isn't armored, as a consequence of what the IDF forces wears.

You will note that according to the IDF's own numbers, there have been fewer deaths from stones thrown at Israeli than children killed for carrying them (or just being in the wrong place at the wrong time), and from my quick check, I have been unable to find any reports of IDF soldiers killed- or even seriously injured- by stones thrown by the citizens of Palestine. The IDF continues to support the policy of shooting them, on the grounds that they feel it's a hate crime (as if the Palestinians have any reason to hate the Israeli; oh, wait, they do) and that it will escalate to terrorism if they don't kill these children.

Now, in Stockholm, teenagers and young adults in their twenties have been throwing stones- and occasionally molotov cocktails- at police for five days straight as of this writing, including the use of slings/slingshots, and not one shot has been fired by police, despite injuries to a few police.

That's how a civilized people handles things. Now, Israeli cannot be held to that standard, of course, but they could at least try to aspire to it. The quality of a person is best revealed in how they treat those they may treat with impunity, or believe they can, and the IDF shows the quality of the Israeli people in abundance by that metric.

Going by the one former IDF soldier I know to have done border patrol, the general attitude is that Palestinians are dogs, that sometimes it's fun to put them down, and that most of the time, it's expedient, with there being no reason not to kill, since they're not people anyway. This may not be a universal attitude, but if there's one regiment that feels that way, you will find others, as well, and the IDF clearly doesn't care enough to get rid of their bad apples, which is tantamount to an official sanction.

The Palestinians aren't angels, but the IDF border units, well, they'd fit right in in the concentration camps...

... as guards, obviously.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


< Message edited by Aswad -- 5/22/2013 2:56:26 PM >

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/22/2013 3:04:09 PM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

I am not sure how you sugar coat strapping a bomb to a child and sending him off to die and take out as many innocents with him as he can. I really don't care how the story is worded. But you are right, they have to try.


It is accepted fact that the male brain does not fully form till about the age of 25.
We allow 17 year olds to join our military.
What age is too young to butcher our children in the name of profit?



I think 17 is too young, but no one asked me.

_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert


This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/22/2013 3:22:06 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

[...] that tries to make teenagers attacking soldiers with slings and slingshots into little kids throwing stones.


Have you seen the kind of armor the IDF wears?

Teenagers using slings and slingshots (incidentally, the IDF states that most stones are thrown by hand, including most of those that have done harm) against the IDF forces is exactly on par with little kids throwing stones at a normal adult that isn't armored, as a consequence of what the IDF forces wears.

You will note that according to the IDF's own numbers, there have been fewer deaths from stones thrown at Israeli than children killed for carrying them (or just being in the wrong place at the wrong time), and from my quick check, I have been unable to find any reports of IDF soldiers killed- or even seriously injured- by stones thrown by the citizens of Palestine. The IDF continues to support the policy of shooting them, on the grounds that they feel it's a hate crime (as if the Palestinians have any reason to hate the Israeli; oh, wait, they do) and that it will escalate to terrorism if they don't kill these children.

You yourself admit that IDF troops have been injured and killed. Are you really saying the IDF has to simply stand there and die to satisfy your hatred?

And it does escalate to terrorism. Have you forgotten all those murder bombings you tried to justify a couple of pages back?

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/22/2013 7:03:28 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You yourself admit that IDF troops have been injured and killed.


Not by thrown stones, sling-thrown stones or slingshot-thrown stones.

quote:

Are you really saying the IDF has to simply stand there and die to satisfy your hatred?


Yanno, I don't hate the IDF, nor Israel.

Hate is a very demanding emotion that I find difficult to summon, particularly for a group, let alone a whole nation.

As for what I'm saying they should do, here it is: don't put on the fucking uniform if you're not ready to die, because that- in the final analysis- is a part of a soldier's job, and one he must be willing to do in line with the requirements of that job, same as every other requirement.

We have militaries we hold as distinct from civilians for the reason that the suffering, brutality and loss of life associated with martial endeavours should not be inflicted on civilian populations, and when a soldier shoots a civilian teenager for throwing rocks without seeing clear evidence that said teenager has inflicted death or grievous bodily harm by doing so, that soldier has crossed this line in a blatant, unambiguous and inexcusable manner, and has shamed his profession altogether.

So, yes, I expect a soldier to take cover, fire warning shots, or otherwise dissuade the offender until and unless the offender has killed or grievously injured someone, and at that point make every effort to aim low if possible (and I actually credit the IDF with decent training as regards aim), and to make every effort to render medical assistance.

I do not expect the same from terrorist organizations like IDF, Hamas, Hezbolla, Al-Qaeda, etc., but I hold out hopes that one day the IDF will choose to be a military, rather than a well trained and well funded terrorist organization. And before you complain that they're not, be aware that Israel has admitted to terrorist activities on my native soil, hitting exclusively innocent targets (the target they were going for, they haven't made another attempt at, presumably due to the backlash).

If regular police in Sweden, Norway and Denmark can handle the pressure, so can the IDF; they choose not to.

That isn't sufficient grounds to hate them. Sufficient to feel casual contempt for them, certainly, just as I have a casual contempt for the majority of terrorists and terrorist organizations out there, including many of the ones they're fighting. They get a little extra because they could be so much more, right now, unlike their enemies, and instead choose to be far less than their potential, which always earns some contempt from me. They degrade themselves. It doesn't help that they fail to accomplish their goals, either.

The IDF would get a lot more respect from me if they just went for an all-out genocide; admit what they are.

They would get even more if they chose to be a respectable military; become something better.

quote:

And it does escalate to terrorism. Have you forgotten all those murder bombings you tried to justify a couple of pages back?


If you go back and reread, you'll see that I complained about their choice of targets, and condoned their methods (except when they use children). An important distinction that may be lost on you, but which bears mentioning when you try to represent or reference my opinions.

With that out of the way, are you saying the IDF reduces terrorism by shooting children still living with their parents?

I gotta tell you, if I had kids, and an occupying force (like it or not, Palestine is a state now, and the IDF is an occupying force) shot them for throwing rocks, I'd be talking to that recruiter the next time he stopped by with food and supplies in my neighbourhood, cuz that just ain't no way to live. From what the media and history tell me, that seems to be going on a lot down there, just like it went on in my own country when the Nazis were here. Now, I'd like to imagine that I would manage to be level-headed enough not to hit civilian targets, but dead kids can do a lot of harm to a person's equilibrium.

That doesn't strike me as successfully preempting terrorism.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/22/2013 8:24:12 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You yourself admit that IDF troops have been injured and killed.


Not by thrown stones, sling-thrown stones or slingshot-thrown stones.

Yes, you were right the first time
http://www.jta.org/2013/03/31/news-opinion/israel-middle-east/israeli-boy-soldiers-injured-during-land-day-protests
http://www.algemeiner.com/2012/12/09/unable-to-respond-israeli-soldiers-chased-by-arab-mob-sustain-injuries-video/


quote:

quote:

Are you really saying the IDF has to simply stand there and die to satisfy your hatred?


Yanno, I don't hate the IDF, nor Israel.

Hate is a very demanding emotion that I find difficult to summon, particularly for a group, let alone a whole nation.

As for what I'm saying they should do, here it is: don't put on the fucking uniform if you're not ready to die, because that- in the final analysis- is a part of a soldier's job, and one he must be willing to do in line with the requirements of that job, same as every other requirement.

Bullshit. I was a in the military my job was not to die. My job was to defend my nation and my comrades in arms and if that meant killing people that was the job. If you think any military would simply stand and absorb csaulties from launched rocks you are a fool. People in the military have an understandable interest in weapons and we do know just precisely how dangerous a slingshot or sling can be. Ever heard of a wrist rocket?


quote:

quote:

And it does escalate to terrorism. Have you forgotten all those murder bombings you tried to justify a couple of pages back?


If you go back and reread, you'll see that I complained about their choice of targets, and condoned their methods (except when they use children). An important distinction that may be lost on you, but which bears mentioning when you try to represent or reference my opinions.

Intentionally targeting innocents for murder is not noble no matter what. That you try and justify it is disgusting. Do you also support Brevik's murders? How is one act of terror against innocents different than any other?

< Message edited by DomKen -- 5/22/2013 8:25:04 PM >

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/22/2013 9:05:41 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Do you also support Brevik's murders?


Hell, no. Perkele!

I'm going to leave the rest for later, on account of my initial reply draft turning quite acerbic at this "question", which wouldn't be productive.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/22/2013 9:33:45 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Do you also support Brevik's murders?


Hell, no. Perkele!

I'm going to leave the rest for later, on account of my initial reply draft turning quite acerbic at this "question", which wouldn't be productive.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


So some murders of innocents are aceptable and others are not. Morality like that should annoy you. Try and develop a consistent morality and then get back to me.

BTW I will actually be gone for a couple of days.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/22/2013 9:48:15 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

DomKen
Intentionally targeting innocents for murder is not noble no matter what.


For once we are in agreement. I'm glad to hear you condemn intentional murders. So I am looking forward to hearing you condemn the IDF murderers of 2 tiny Palestinian girls covered in this BBC video report:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krlnS6hcxTI

The two girls were deliberately shot by one IDF thug while his mates enjoyed munching on chocolates. A third sister was also shot but survived. Tragically she is crippled for life and will never walk again. The children's grandmother was also shot during the murders. Yes, as you say, "intentionally targeting innocents for murder is not noble no matter what".

Of course, should you fail to condemn the IDF for this slaughter, which occurred while the girls were under a white flag, the internationally recognised sign of surrender, you will have demonstrated once again that any principles you may have go by the wayside when it comes to defending the terrorist State of Israel. And that sadly, the noble sentiments you expressed above are simply empty words of political expedience.

Terrorists are said by some to be defined by their targeting of innocent civilians. By that standard, the IDF is clearly a terrorist force, as demonstrated by this video. I hope you will now agree that the IDF is a terrorist outfit.

I'm sorry that I am not optimistic but would dearly love to see you rise to the challenge of putting principle before partisan sympathies and prove my pessimism unwarranted.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 5/22/2013 9:58:38 PM >

_____________________________



(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/22/2013 10:06:04 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

Aswad
[....]are you saying the IDF reduces terrorism by shooting children still living with their parents?

I gotta tell you, if I had kids, and an occupying force (like it or not, Palestine is a state now, and the IDF is an occupying force) shot them for throwing rocks, I'd be talking to that recruiter the next time he stopped by with food and supplies in my neighbourhood, cuz that just ain't no way to live. From what the media and history tell me, that seems to be going on a lot down there, just like it went on in my own country when the Nazis were here. Now, I'd like to imagine that I would manage to be level-headed enough not to hit civilian targets, but dead kids can do a lot of harm to a person's equilibrium.

That doesn't strike me as successfully preempting terrorism.


Such understatement!

Of course it doesn't pre-empt terrorists in the bud. In fact, if the goal was to create terrorists, I can't think of a more efficient way of achieving that goal than slaughtering members of a civilian population already suffering under brutal foreign military occupation.

_____________________________



(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/22/2013 10:07:41 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

BTW I will actually be gone for a couple of days.


Just had to fling some p**p first?

I already said I'd get back to you, but you know what? Screw that.

You let me know when you're interested in an adult conversation. I'm not wasting my time on this.

I noted that I couldn't avoid having my post unduly influenced by the response to your BS allegation right now, as you should've done if you were getting too involved yourself, and instead you throw this crap at me when you already know I can't reply properly to it while maintaining a good standard of posting civility. That tells me you want a shitfest, not a conversation, and I'm not up for what you appear to want.

I wish you well,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/23/2013 5:34:37 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
We have militaries we hold as distinct from civilians for the reason that the suffering, brutality and loss of life associated with martial endeavours should not be inflicted on civilian populations, and when a soldier shoots a civilian teenager for throwing rocks without seeing clear evidence that said teenager has inflicted death or grievous bodily harm by doing so, that soldier has crossed this line in a blatant, unambiguous and inexcusable manner, and has shamed his profession altogether.


I can see what you're saying, and I mostly agree, although please allow me to point out the obvious: Anyone who would throw rocks at a heavily-armed individual is an idiot. Even I know that it's foolish to bring a rock to a gunfight. It's hard to sympathize with reckless teenage delinquents and gang-bangers.

We've had similar cases along the border. There was one case near El Paso where a kid from the Mexico side was throwing rocks at the Border Patrol, and the Border Patrol shot and killed the kid. There was the usual outrage at the Border Patrol, but all I was wondering: Why was the kid throwing rocks at armed individuals in the first place? How stupid.

If it's just a ploy to get shot and gain sympathy from the bleeding hearts in the media, then okay, but they'd still be better off if they would just take the Gandhi non-violent route.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/23/2013 10:22:02 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
We have militaries we hold as distinct from civilians for the reason that the suffering, brutality and loss of life associated with martial endeavours should not be inflicted on civilian populations, and when a soldier shoots a civilian teenager for throwing rocks without seeing clear evidence that said teenager has inflicted death or grievous bodily harm by doing so, that soldier has crossed this line in a blatant, unambiguous and inexcusable manner, and has shamed his profession altogether.


I can see what you're saying, and I mostly agree, although please allow me to point out the obvious: Anyone who would throw rocks at a heavily-armed individual is an idiot. Even I know that it's foolish to bring a rock to a gunfight. It's hard to sympathize with reckless teenage delinquents and gang-bangers.

We've had similar cases along the border. There was one case near El Paso where a kid from the Mexico side was throwing rocks at the Border Patrol, and the Border Patrol shot and killed the kid. There was the usual outrage at the Border Patrol, but all I was wondering: Why was the kid throwing rocks at armed individuals in the first place? How stupid.

If it's just a ploy to get shot and gain sympathy from the bleeding hearts in the media, then okay, but they'd still be better off if they would just take the Gandhi non-violent route.

Gang bangers bring guns. "Delinquents" is a catch-all classification of convenience truly saying more about the observer's fears than the behaviour of the observed, and is a blame-the-victim bumper sticker. Throwing rocks should never in the name of all humanity invoke a death sentence. Nor should stupidity. And finally, the border patrol agent who killed the kid should be on trial for murder. It is homocide plain and simple. I can't understand tolerence for that act. Except of course the kid was brown and his life of less value.

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/23/2013 10:55:04 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
We have militaries we hold as distinct from civilians for the reason that the suffering, brutality and loss of life associated with martial endeavours should not be inflicted on civilian populations, and when a soldier shoots a civilian teenager for throwing rocks without seeing clear evidence that said teenager has inflicted death or grievous bodily harm by doing so, that soldier has crossed this line in a blatant, unambiguous and inexcusable manner, and has shamed his profession altogether.


I can see what you're saying, and I mostly agree, although please allow me to point out the obvious: Anyone who would throw rocks at a heavily-armed individual is an idiot. Even I know that it's foolish to bring a rock to a gunfight. It's hard to sympathize with reckless teenage delinquents and gang-bangers.

We've had similar cases along the border. There was one case near El Paso where a kid from the Mexico side was throwing rocks at the Border Patrol, and the Border Patrol shot and killed the kid. There was the usual outrage at the Border Patrol, but all I was wondering: Why was the kid throwing rocks at armed individuals in the first place? How stupid.

If it's just a ploy to get shot and gain sympathy from the bleeding hearts in the media, then okay, but they'd still be better off if they would just take the Gandhi non-violent route.

Gang bangers bring guns. "Delinquents" is a catch-all classification of convenience truly saying more about the observer's fears than the behaviour of the observed, and is a blame-the-victim bumper sticker. Throwing rocks should never in the name of all humanity invoke a death sentence. Nor should stupidity. And finally, the border patrol agent who killed the kid should be on trial for murder. It is homocide plain and simple. I can't understand tolerence for that act. Except of course the kid was brown and his life of less value.


I don't recall the details of the case, the Border Patrol agent may have been charged. But even if he was charged, I don't see how it changes the situation, nor is it blaming the victim. Throwing rocks at someone with the intent of doing bodily harm is against the law.


(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: "Welcome to America's 30 year War" - 5/23/2013 6:46:52 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

Anyone who would throw rocks at a heavily-armed individual is an idiot.


Well, duh...

That said, I don't expect uneducated teenagers from families living on $900 per year in a civil war zone to have excellent judgment.

quote:

It's hard to sympathize with reckless teenage delinquents and gang-bangers.


If you find it hard, I'd submit that it's a worthwhile challenge to set your mind to. As a starting point, consider just what conditions these kids live with. Over half the population is children, and one third are under fourteen. They're a violently oppressed ethnicity/class in their own country, live with civil war and what to them appears to be indiscriminate bombing on a regular basis, and so forth.

quote:

There was one case near El Paso where a kid from the Mexico side was throwing rocks at the Border Patrol, and the Border Patrol shot and killed the kid. There was the usual outrage at the Border Patrol, but all I was wondering: Why was the kid throwing rocks at armed individuals in the first place? How stupid.


Look, if I was going to write people off based on their behavior being stupid according to my own metrics thereof, I would have to write off most of humanity as being terminally stupid, and our species as a disease. I find that to be a supremely unproductive exercise, and so I try to respect people and their lives anyway.

Where I live, you just don't do a thing like that. You can put the kid in his place, sure, but you don't kill him for it, and certainly not with a firearm. This has been a cultural norm since the days when we raided the British Isles for slaves and plunder, when people worried about the barbarian hordes up here and their violent bearzerkers. You would be branded and outlawed for it back then, as a civilian, worse if you were a combattant. These days, you're simply a pariah and socially shunned if you do such a thing.

If the IDF wants to throw rocks back at the kids, I'm gonna give them a pass on that, though I don't think it's particularly decent behavior. When they go shooting these kids, then, no, that's when they lose any claim to legitimacy (not that they had much to begin with).

quote:

If it's just a ploy to get shot and gain sympathy from the bleeding hearts in the media, then okay, but they'd still be better off if they would just take the Gandhi non-violent route.


The non-violent route only scores points with people that have a sense of decency, and hence is ineffective in Israel.

quote:

Throwing rocks at someone with the intent of doing bodily harm is against the law.


Does it demand the death penalty, effectuated extrajudicially, on the spot? Thought not.

For that matter, lots of people throw rocks without any intention beyond lashing out in anger, or even much thought for consequences.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 100
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