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RE: Why celebrate dead soldiers? - 5/27/2013 12:28:33 AM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline 		Because of my politics, I feel like my son died for no reason, also ...

Until I realize that when he put on his uniform, he did so because it was what he loved to do.

He did it because not everyone is cut out to serve.

He did it because he loved his country.

He did it because it was who he was.

He died, "needlessly", if you don't consider honor, integrity, or selfless service to be needs.

I expect this kind of drivel from one of the first two posters. The other disappoints me.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

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RE: Why celebrate dead soldiers? - 5/27/2013 12:37:26 AM   
tweakabelle


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Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		The sad fact is that all of those who have died subsequent to 9/11 whether in uniform or not, have died in vain.

Please don't think I am trying to devalue the sacrifice of those who have died. That is not my intention at all. Rather I am looking at the difference between Lincoln's noble sentiments and the reality of today's wars and warfare. The sacrifices of those who have died or been horribly injured have been betrayed by the ideologues, the politicians and corporate masters responsible for their deaths.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 5/27/2013 12:42:17 AM >

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RE: Why celebrate dead soldiers? - 5/27/2013 1:05:06 AM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		It isn't a celebration of anything, least of all the politics that causes wars.

It is a remembrance of the real human consequences of war, hence the name 'Memorial' day... in memory of those who aren't here.

Whether they died to save someone else's life, or they died pursuing a pointless objective, or they died for a reason no more noble than being in the wrong place at the wrong time... They aren't here to put a flower on someone else's grave, and begrudging them a moment's thought, does nothing to reduce the chances of the next war.


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

When we have soldiers in harm's way for no reason? There's no 'clear and present danger' to the survival of the union, so every dead soldier since 9/11 has been a complete and total waste, and we need to stop the pointless sacrifice.

BRING THE TROOPS HOME NOW!

We can prosecute the fraudsters who lied to put them in danger once they're safe.





< Message edited by Powergamz1 -- 5/27/2013 1:15:39 AM >

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RE: Why celebrate dead soldiers? - 5/27/2013 1:23:26 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
The sad fact is that all of those who have died subsequent to 9/11 whether in uniform or not, have died in vain.
Thank you for your answer, tweakabelle, but you are actually not answering my question even if you defend the same position as farglebargle. Can you please tell me which would have been your reaction as President of the USA after the attacks, regarding its origin?

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RE: Why celebrate dead soldiers? - 5/27/2013 2:19:44 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
The sad fact is that all of those who have died subsequent to 9/11 whether in uniform or not, have died in vain.
Thank you for your answer, tweakabelle, but you are actually not answering my question even if you defend the same position as farglebargle. Can you please tell me which would have been your reaction as President of the USA after the attacks, regarding its origin?


Sorry SpanishMatMaster but I wasn't attempting to answer your question. I was addressing the OP.

But, just to make you happy: if I was Bush I would have bought the Taliban off in order to get OBL. Giving them a $100 million or even a billion $ would be pocket money in US terms and would have saved thousands of lives and trillions of $ in the long run. I would have done anything short of actually invading if they declined my offer - financed and armed the Northern Alliance, given them aerial support and bribed the warlords to change allegiance from the Taliban is one option. I most definitely wouldn't have invaded for three main reasons:
1. That strategy has never succeeded in Afghanistan; and
2. An invasion was precisely the reaction AQ desired. It's not a wise idea to let the enemy decide the strategy or the battlefield. Invading sucked the West into fighting an unwinnable war in impossible terrain on the other side of the world, as people like me argued at the time; and
3. Foreign military invasions and occupations are among the causes of the problems, they are never the solution.

Do I need to add that I would never have dreamt of invading Iraq, as Bush did?

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 5/27/2013 2:26:13 AM >

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RE: Why celebrate dead soldiers? - 5/27/2013 3:30:10 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


Posts: 967
Joined: 9/28/2011
Status: offline 		Hello, tweakabelle, and thank you for your answer. Very interesting. Let us go for it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Sorry SpanishMatMaster but I wasn't attempting to answer your question. I was addressing the OP.
Ok. The fact that you answered me (according to the button) confused me. It's ok, of course. Common problem here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
I would have bought the Taliban off in order to get OBL.

1. Improbable to work, actually, the Taliban were getting enough money, capturing OBL would have been hard also for them (he was protected by the rest of Al Qaeda) and the would not have risked to be seen as money-mad traitors by Al Qaeda and the rest of the Islamists.

2. Even if it worked, it would hardly resolve the problem. Al Qaeda would still exist with a powerful base in Afghanistan, ready to prepare the next attack to take revenge. And then what, buy again one man for every 3000 Americans killed? Maybe you would end up with Al Qaeda actually delivering you the man voluntarily, they have enough suicidal warriors and one billion dollar for each one is a good deal, they only need to use a 10% of the money you are giving them to make the next attack against America. Curious way to finance the terrorism against your own country, I would say...

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
I would have done anything short of actually invading if they declined my offer - financed and armed the Northern Alliance, given them aerial support and bribed the warlords to change allegiance from the Taliban is one option.

This would have provoked a lot of deaths, isn't it?

A war with the only land support of the Northern Alliance and maybe some warlords (only maybe, the Taliban can also bribe, they have the whole money from drugs to support them, plus other allied countries) could be lost, or at least lasted much more than the invasion, costing much more afghan lives.

They are not a priority of yours, for your policy an American soldier is more important than an Afghan civilian? Does this include children?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
1. That strategy has never succeeded in Afghanistan;
Actually wrong, but let us leave this by side.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
2. An invasion was precisely the reaction AQ desired.
I very much doubt that they wanted to be ripped off their calm and prosper bases in Afghanistan, no.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
3. Foreign military invasions and occupations are among the causes of the problems, they are never the solution.
Interesting. Does this apply to Nazi Germany? Just to give an easy example.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Do I need to add that I would never have dreamt of invading Iraq, as Bush did?
No, you have not, see the posting you button-quoted :)

Best regards.

< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 5/27/2013 3:35:09 AM >

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RE: Why celebrate dead soldiers? - 5/27/2013 3:35:07 AM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Why celebrate dead soldiers?

I'd say "commemorate" or "honor" rather than "celebrate."

As for your question, Lincoln provided the best answer I know:

It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.


Yes. I mentioned Lincoln when I referenced the only reason to mobilize being a danger to the existence of the Union.

Since Korea at least, every soldier has died in vain -- in violation of Lincoln's core principles.

But thank you for bringing that up, so that it could be clarified.

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RE: Why celebrate dead soldiers? - 5/27/2013 3:39:51 AM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
When we have soldiers in harm's way for no reason? There's no 'clear and present danger' to the survival of the union, so every dead soldier since 9/11 has been a complete and total waste, and we need to stop the pointless sacrifice.
Hello!

Let me play the advocatus diaboli here. I am not American, I am not anti-American (I have been "accused" of being both, curious enough). I was 100% against the intervention in Iraq, no so in Afghanistan.

So, let us speak if you want. What would have been your reaction to the 11S ? You are Bush (don't be scared, it is only a mental hypothesis, mental in more than one sense).

:)



Well, when the WTC was bombed back in the 90's Bill Clinton had the Justice Department find, arrest, try and imprison for the rest of his life, the perpatrator of that crime. You know. Treat criminal acts like criminal acts, instead of an excuse to lie to everyone about Iraq being any sort of threat to the existance of the United States ( See Also: A. Lincoln on the survival of the Union )

I don't think Bush could have told all those intentional lies if he was "scared". He ran a con, and the suckers fell for it.

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RE: Why celebrate dead soldiers? - 5/27/2013 5:02:46 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


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Status: offline 		Dear farglebargle:

In this case, the perpetrators killed themselves and many of the responsibles are sitting in Afghnanistan.

So... call the interpol? The taliban did not recognize the interpol. Catch only the responsibles which could be found in the USA and friendly countries, and that was it? Really?

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RE: Why celebrate dead soldiers? - 5/27/2013 5:05:59 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
When we have soldiers in harm's way for no reason? There's no 'clear and present danger' to the survival of the union, so every dead soldier since 9/11 has been a complete and total waste, and we need to stop the pointless sacrifice.
BRING THE TROOPS HOME NOW!
We can prosecute the fraudsters who lied to put them in danger once they're safe.


A complete and total waste? Not likely.

Look beyond your ideology and look at what the men and women in uniform have done, are doing, and will continue to do for the US.

Memorial Day isn't about politics. It isn't about whether a war was right, wrong, appropriate, etc. Memorial Day is about those who have died in service to the US. Regardless of who sent them to do what where, these citizens took an oath to protect the US and they did. Some of them died in that service. This is about those who gave the ultimate sacrifice.

This is not about those who sent them or why they were sent.


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RE: Why celebrate dead soldiers? - 5/27/2013 5:07:32 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
Because of my politics, I feel like my son died for no reason, also ...
Until I realize that when he put on his uniform, he did so because it was what he loved to do.
He did it because not everyone is cut out to serve.
He did it because he loved his country.
He did it because it was who he was.
He died, "needlessly", if you don't consider honor, integrity, or selfless service to be needs.
I expect this kind of drivel from one of the first two posters. The other disappoints me.
Peace and comfort,
Michael


I am very sorry for your loss, Michael. Thank you for raising a hero.


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RE: Why celebrate dead soldiers? - 5/27/2013 5:38:19 AM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
Because of my politics, I feel like my son died for no reason, also ...
Until I realize that when he put on his uniform, he did so because it was what he loved to do.
He did it because not everyone is cut out to serve.
He did it because he loved his country.
He did it because it was who he was.
He died, "needlessly", if you don't consider honor, integrity, or selfless service to be needs.
I expect this kind of drivel from one of the first two posters. The other disappoints me.
Peace and comfort,
Michael


I am very sorry for your loss, Michael. Thank you for raising a hero.



Agreed.

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RE: Why celebrate dead soldiers? - 5/27/2013 5:51:22 AM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline 		Thank you, gentlemen; not for you, thanking me for raising him. I believe kids come to us perfect and unspoiled and the best we can do is NOT screw them up too badly.

My "Thank you" to you gentlemen is for acknowledging that he was a special guy (he'd have bristled at y'all calling him a "hero" though LOL).



Peace and comfort,



Michael

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 5/27/2013 5:52:24 AM >

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RE: Why celebrate dead soldiers? - 5/27/2013 6:14:31 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
Thank you, gentlemen; not for you, thanking me for raising him. I believe kids come to us perfect and unspoiled and the best we can do is NOT screw them up too badly.
My "Thank you" to you gentlemen is for acknowledging that he was a special guy (he'd have bristled at y'all calling him a "hero" though LOL).
Peace and comfort,
Michael


I'm very glad he'd have bristled at my calling him a "hero." That, in and of itself, is a typical quality of a hero.



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RE: Why celebrate dead soldiers? - 5/27/2013 6:15:21 AM   
Tkman117


Posts: 1353
Joined: 5/21/2012
Status: offline 		This is what gets me about most of you Americans (I'm Canadian FYI). You say your soldiers are fighting for YOUR country, when you seem to forget just how weak AQ and the Taliban are these days. If they were fighting for your country, they'd be attacking Islamist extremists at home, defending from within. Stopping terrorist attempts. Of course that's not the case and the military would never take charge in situations like this. But what are the troops fighting for? In Iraq, idk, that was a crap war. But in places like Afghanistan they were and are fighting for the freedom and prosperous futures of the people THERE! NOT YOU! You people are so arrogant and self centered in thinking that everything that happens and every act commited is done for you and your people, when it's in fact someone else who received that help. Get off your high horse and wake up, you're not the "leaders of the free world" anymore and the world doesn't revolve around you.

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RE: Why celebrate dead soldiers? - 5/27/2013 6:22:30 AM   
Tkman117


Posts: 1353
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Status: offline 		The soldiers who committed these acts are not heroes because they served their country, in some cases ( Afghanistan) they were heroes because they protected and fought for people to whom they had 0 attachment, loyalty, or commitment to. Being selfless, that's what a true hero is, not one who simply died in battle. No insult intended Michael.

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RE: Why celebrate dead soldiers? - 5/27/2013 6:22:34 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani
Why only remember casualties from the 2 world wars??????
You dont remember the civil war or the war for independence?
Wars are fought for our freedom. A necessary evil.
We will see if Iraq was a 'mistake'.
I am waiting for the fuckin caliphate to arrive. Bring it on!
We celebrate victory, not death. You don't even celebrate the death of an enemy. You celebrate victory!
Remember how musli's celebrated 911? That's because they don't know the concept of honor. They just have filthy pride.


Who says we only remember casualties from the 2 WW's? Last I heard, WW casualties and vets aren't the only ones buried in out Veteran's cemeteries.


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RE: Why celebrate dead soldiers? - 5/27/2013 6:28:21 AM   
DaddySatyr


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From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

This is what gets me about most of you Americans (I'm Canadian FYI). You say your soldiers are fighting for YOUR country, when you seem to forget just how weak AQ and the Taliban are these days. If they were fighting for your country, they'd be attacking Islamist extremists at home, defending from within. Stopping terrorist attempts. Of course that's not the case and the military would never take charge in situations like this. But what are the troops fighting for? In Iraq, idk, that was a crap war. But in places like Afghanistan they were and are fighting for the freedom and prosperous futures of the people THERE! NOT YOU! You people are so arrogant and self centered in thinking that everything that happens and every act commited is done for you and your people, when it's in fact someone else who received that help. Get off your high horse and wake up, you're not the "leaders of the free world" anymore and the world doesn't revolve around you.



Posse Comitatus.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

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RE: Why celebrate dead soldiers? - 5/27/2013 6:30:11 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117
This is what gets me about most of you Americans (I'm Canadian FYI). You say your soldiers are fighting for YOUR country, when you seem to forget just how weak AQ and the Taliban are these days. If they were fighting for your country, they'd be attacking Islamist extremists at home, defending from within. Stopping terrorist attempts. Of course that's not the case and the military would never take charge in situations like this. But what are the troops fighting for? In Iraq, idk, that was a crap war. But in places like Afghanistan they were and are fighting for the freedom and prosperous futures of the people THERE! NOT YOU! You people are so arrogant and self centered in thinking that everything that happens and every act commited is done for you and your people, when it's in fact someone else who received that help. Get off your high horse and wake up, you're not the "leaders of the free world" anymore and the world doesn't revolve around you.
...
The soldiers who committed these acts are not heroes because they served their country, in some cases ( Afghanistan) they were heroes because they protected and fought for people to whom they had 0 attachment, loyalty, or commitment to. Being selfless, that's what a true hero is, not one who simply died in battle. No insult intended Michael.


Seriously? You take the opposite tack MrBukani took. If you think we are so arrogant, why not simply ignore our memorial services for those who have fallen before us?

Like I said to farglebargle:
    Memorial Day isn't about politics. It isn't about whether a war was right, wrong, appropriate, etc. Memorial Day is about those who have died in service to the US. Regardless of who sent them to do what where, these citizens took an oath to protect the US and they did. Some of them died in that service. This is about those who gave the ultimate sacrifice.
    This is not about those who sent them or why they were sent.


You don't have to like it. You don't have to agree with it. And, since you're not even in America, you can very easily ignore it (even if you were in America, you could ignore it, but it's more difficult).

_____________________________

What I support:

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  • Help for the truly needy
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  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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RE: Why celebrate dead soldiers? - 5/27/2013 6:48:22 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady


quote:

ORIGINAL: curious23

Wars have become so impersonal that praising someone for fighting for my sake in one seems a bit odd. Soldiers don't fight for what I want. They fight for what someone says I want and then feel entitled to gratitude afterwards. I'd be more grateful to a neighbor for saving my newspaper from the rain than someone insisting on fighting a bad guy on my behalf even after I say 'come home'.



Well, aren't you special.

Do you realize that Memorial Day also commemorates the men and slaves who died so that you wouldn't have to be a slave? The men and women who died so you could live free to spout nonsense like you just did?

Seems like your neighbor has a valid reason for leaving your newspaper out in the rain.


Thanks for saving me the key strokes.

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