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RE: Why celebrate dead soldiers? - 5/27/2013 10:47:10 PM

DaddySatyr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

... I disagree, and say the answer to free speech used badly is more speech. ( Attacking the post, rather than the poster, of course. )

QFT

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RE: Why celebrate dead soldiers? - 5/27/2013 11:00:00 PM

Edwynn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

I would love to see you say the above in a room with the love ones of those that sacrificed their life for your right to say it.

I would like to think said loved ones would care enough about that sacrifice to fight back their reaction to honor it, and then politely kick the person out.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

Wouldn't happen the op lacks the intestinal fortitude to say something like that to some ones face.

I concur with the opinion that the person that uttered the statements at the beginning of this topic does not have the balls to say that in a room full of vets and especially a room full of combat vets.

I had three family member vets (all "combat vets") who would say very close to that same thing "in a room full of combat vets," and a few other combat-tested vets I know who would do likewise.

I don't know where this notion comes from that "all vets think alike." Especially combat vets.

Talking to a vet from the Korean war would dispel a great many myths and misconceptions in that regard, just for starters.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 5/27/2013 11:58:15 PM >

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RE: Why celebrate dead soldiers? - 5/28/2013 12:46:36 AM

Edwynn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

And why the hate on Halliburton anyways? Was there another US company that could have fulfilled all of the roles that Halliburton did?

Priceless.

There was, supposedly, no other corporation than Haliburton (but there's Bechtel, shhh ...) who could have dealt with the rebuilding of the Iraqi oil production infrastructure that Haliburton's CEO, as US VP, so vociferously advocated destroying in the first place, so therefore Haliburton was spot on in leading the US into that invasion, because they were the only ones capable of fixing what they destroyed, therefore they were only being logical in destroying it, ... I think...

Infallible logic, no question.

(Pssst, Bechtel Corp., Schultz, Weinberger, etc.; this ain't nothing new).

Just like we have Citigroup and Goldman Sachs and Larry Summers and Henry Paulson and Geithner leading the way into and out of the financial debacle. (Phil and Wendy Gramm, to their 'credit,' only led us into it, and knew enough to not be involved in "getting us out of it.")

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 5/28/2013 12:58:25 AM >

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RE: Why celebrate dead soldiers? - 5/28/2013 1:56:14 AM

Edwynn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

It isn't a celebration of anything, least of all the politics that causes wars.

It is a remembrance of the real human consequences of war, hence the name 'Memorial' day... in memory of those who aren't here.

Whether they died to save someone else's life, or they died pursuing a pointless objective, or they died for a reason no more noble than being in the wrong place at the wrong time... They aren't here to put a flower on someone else's grave, and begrudging them a moment's thought, does nothing to reduce the chances of the next war.

No it doesn't. But that does not prevent such crass and ultimately cynical promotion of 'events' such as these being any more than wool over the eyes of the population, nothing more than backdoor cover for whatever next expedition is in the works, in service to mammon and other increase to the few, who rig one fiasco after another in prospect to that end.

As has ever been thus.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 5/28/2013 2:09:14 AM >

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RE: Why celebrate dead soldiers? - 5/28/2013 3:19:11 AM

SpanishMatMaster

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Hello, Butch

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

You did not ask me a question... If you like go ahead and ask me as long as it is on the subject.

I did ask you a question.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
quote:

so every dead soldier since 9/11 has been a complete and total waste

I would love to see you say the above in a room with the love ones of those that sacrificed their life for your right to say it.
Butch
Why would you possibly love that, what kind of sick emotions do you host?

This is a question. You would love to see somebody say that in a room with the love ones of those that sacrificed their life for his/her right to say it.

How can you possibly love such scenario!? Why would you possibly love that!? What is there to love!?

That was my question.

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RE: Why celebrate dead soldiers? - 5/28/2013 4:11:33 AM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I think this is part of the problem, though, Aswad. IMO, everyone is guilty of it, not just you. But, if you are going to call out Michael for taking a political stance, shouldn't you also call out the rest of those making a political stance on this?

Note that I never saw the OP.
Good people are worth calling out.
Bad people aren't, unless they need to be shut down.
There's too many idiots out there for me to bother calling out each and every one of them. Particularly the ones whose posts I don't see in the first place, the ones whose posts are- consistently and over time- detrimental to my ability to post constructively, damaging to my faith in humanity, or in other ways a net loss to interact with.
I saw Michael's post, however. I usually do. And I will continue to read his posts until and unless he tells me otherwise. But I've usually not replied, as I've had this vague recollection that he blocked me over a misunderstanding a while back. This time, though, I had something worthwhile to say to him about his son, so I said it, whether or not he read it (as it turns out, he didn't, and wouldn't have known if not for you quoting me). While saying it, I bungled an attempt at letting him know some of us lefties care a lot about veterans and the fallen, regardless of how we feel about the CICs that have wielded them.
Michael has shown himself capable of better than the misplaced 'leftist' comment (the anger is fine, but should be for the OP).
As for the OP... well, there's a reason I didn't see it.
IWYW,
— Aswad.

Thank you for that explanation. I can appreciate your angle much better now, and I do apologize for the unwarranted accusation.

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RE: Why celebrate dead soldiers? - 5/28/2013 6:28:33 AM

Fightdirecto

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
I don't know where this notion comes from that "all vets think alike." Especially combat vets.

Agreed.

I served for 27 years, combined Active Army and Army Reserves (to include serving with the Army Rangers in Vietnam in 1970-1971), and frequently get pissed off that, because of that service, people assume that I am a Right-wing Conservative.

The other variation is when people find that I am a liberal, a registered Democrat and not a member of an Evangelical Fundamentalist Protestant sect, they assume that I am lying about my military service and assume I never served at all.

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RE: Why celebrate dead soldiers? - 5/28/2013 7:24:21 AM

SpanishMatMaster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto
Agreed.

I served for 27 years, combined Active Army and Army Reserves (to include serving with the Army Rangers in Vietnam in 1970-1971), and frequently get pissed off that, because of that service, people assume that I am a Right-wing Conservative.

The other variation is when people find that I am a liberal, a registered Democrat and not a member of an Evangelical Fundamentalist Protestant sect, they assume that I am lying about my military service and assume I never served at all.

Plus you are probably Atheist, and there are no Atheists in the foxholes.

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RE: Why celebrate dead soldiers? - 5/28/2013 8:12:12 AM

Edwynn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
I don't know where this notion comes from that "all vets think alike." Especially combat vets.

Agreed.

I served for 27 years, combined Active Army and Army Reserves (to include serving with the Army Rangers in Vietnam in 1970-1971), and frequently get pissed off that, because of that service, people assume that I am a Right-wing Conservative.

The other variation is when people find that I am a liberal, a registered Democrat and not a member of an Evangelical Fundamentalist Protestant sect, they assume that I am lying about my military service and assume I never served at all.

Just like people assume that every business owner votes Republican, and any Democrat voter could only be someone who wants to suck businesses dry.

Just as with vets, business owners that I know personally are all over the political map, the majority of them being obstinately apolitical, in fact.

Same again with gun owners and gun regulation, etc.

None of this is as cut and dry as the media and their followers wish it to be.

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RE: Why celebrate dead soldiers? - 5/28/2013 8:36:19 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

Thank you for that explanation. I can appreciate your angle much better now, and I do apologize for the unwarranted accusation.

No worries. We're good.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

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RE: Why celebrate dead soldiers? - 5/28/2013 8:45:53 AM

kdsub

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ahhhh I just thought that was a snarky response. Why should I not like to see that scenario... Don't you believe any comments made here on the boards should be backed up by the willingness to repeat said comments face to face? If not then they should not be said at all.

There is no excuse for this thread on this day of all days. You speak of my insensitivity yet you don't seem to understand the hurt his words could cause to those who lost love ones defending his freedoms. Talk about insensitivity... yes it would not hurt my sensitivities at all if someone struck out with anger. I would not condone violence but I sure would understand it.

I am also against some policies of my government and I try to vote changes. I certainly let my views be known and believe in the right for all to let theirs be known too... I stand by my comments and the repercussions and expect others to as well. When I make mistakes I hold up to them.

This thread is a mistake by the OP and I hope he realizes this.. I do understand his message and do also believe no disrespect was intended but he used an unfortunate way to express himself.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 5/28/2013 9:03:11 AM >

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RE: Why celebrate dead soldiers? - 5/28/2013 10:30:48 AM

jlf1961

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
I don't know where this notion comes from that "all vets think alike." Especially combat vets.

Agreed.

I served for 27 years, combined Active Army and Army Reserves (to include serving with the Army Rangers in Vietnam in 1970-1971), and frequently get pissed off that, because of that service, people assume that I am a Right-wing Conservative.

The other variation is when people find that I am a liberal, a registered Democrat and not a member of an Evangelical Fundamentalist Protestant sect, they assume that I am lying about my military service and assume I never served at all.

Flight, you said you were a ranger, and that is good enough for me.

I am an ex ranger, not a die hard yellow dog democrat, because I do support some of the right's opinions, like gun ownership (with better background checks) not pro abortion (I am catholic) and I am all for the unrestricted sale of alcohol, specifically scotch, canadian whiskey, and some bourbons.

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RE: Why celebrate dead soldiers? - 5/28/2013 9:23:53 PM

SpanishMatMaster

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Hello, kdsub.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Why should I not like to see that scenario...

You should not like to see that scenario because it could hurt people who have suffered already very much.

Somehow this is not an argument for you!?

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Don't you believe any comments made here on the boards should be backed up by the willingness to repeat said comments face to face?

No, I definitely do not.
* I have made some unpleasant comments about terrorists and I do not have any willingness to repeat them in front of terrorists.
* I have said some comments against the ideas of some radical people and I have no willingness to repeat them in a room full of radical people (unless we add some strong police defense around me, and maybe not even then).
* I have said repeatedly that there is no God but I have no willingness to repeat this sentence in front of a priest who has just lost his parents in an accident.
* I defend my BDSM activities and I have explained some of them in these boards. I have no willingness to repeat my collarme.com profile in front of a class of 8 year old girls in a Catholic school.
The fact that we have some opinions and express them here does not mean, for many reasons (I have given examples of three kinds of reasons), that we want to say the same in any possible circumstance and environment, no matter the consequences or the people involved.

For me this belongs to basic social competence. I do not want to say that you have no social competence, but I do suggest that you have not really thought much about what you just wrote before writing it.

Best regards, with all due respect.

< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 5/28/2013 9:34:23 PM >

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RE: Why celebrate dead soldiers? - 5/28/2013 10:38:26 PM

kdsub

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quote:

I have made some unpleasant comments about terrorists and I do not have any willingness to repeat them in front of terrorists.

So you think love ones of soldiers killed in defense of their country are comparable to terrorists?

quote:

You should not like to see that scenario because it could hurt people who have suffered already very much

Agreed... I am not the one speaking to them he is...what are you talking about? Do you think the internet has some filter device that his words will only be read by people not offended?

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 5/28/2013 10:40:58 PM >

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RE: Why celebrate dead soldiers? - 5/29/2013 12:31:24 AM

SpanishMatMaster

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Hello, kdsub.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
So you think love ones of soldiers killed in defense of their country are comparable to terrorists?

And to a class of 8 year old girls in a Catholic school, you mean?

Well... in which sense? When you compare you have to say which metric are you measuring.

Plus, be careful to equal "comparable" ("can be compared") with "equal" ("are similar"). A mouse can be comparable with a planet in size. The result of the comparation is "a planet is bigger than a mouse".

Anyway I do not see the point of your question. What you are quoting is a part of my proof that the idea that "any comments made here on the boards should be backed up by the willingness to repeat said comments face to face" is socially and morally absurd.

Did you understand this, please, given the examples? Did you understand that this sentence of yours is absurd?

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Agreed... I am not the one speaking to them he is...

So... wait... you agree with my reason, NOT to like to see the scenario.
But you would like to see the scenario.

Can you please explain or is your position just inconsistent?

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
what are you talking about?

About the things I am writing and quoting. Of course.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Do you think the internet has some filter device that his words will only be read by people not offended?

No. So what...? You are the one who would love to see a scenario where people who suffered much suffer a bit more. So... explain?

Best regards.

< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 5/29/2013 12:39:59 AM >

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RE: Why celebrate dead soldiers? - 5/29/2013 12:39:14 AM

SpanishMatMaster

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Double message. Sorry.

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RE: Why celebrate dead soldiers? - 5/29/2013 12:42:34 AM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

Apparently kdsub, tweakabelle and farglebargle are not going to answer me anymore ¿correct?

kdsub answered my posting, but not the question. tweakabelle and farglebargle do no longer answer my questions.

I did answer your initial question SMM.

My response elicited a series of follow-up questions, which were (a) off topic and (b) hypothetical questions about matters that are on the historical record. If we are going to discuss the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, it's pointless analysing the alternatives to the course Bush chose at this point in time and on this platform. It really deserves a thread of its own.

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RE: Why celebrate dead soldiers? - 5/29/2013 1:16:13 AM

SpanishMatMaster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
My response elicited a series of follow-up questions, which were (a) off topic and (b) hypothetical questions about matters that are on the historical record. If we are going to discuss the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, it's pointless analysing the alternatives to the course Bush chose at this point in time and on this platform. It really deserves a thread of its own.

Ok, tweakabelle, and thank you for explaining.

I think that you considered the alternative courses of action in the moment you said that "all of those who have died subsequent to 9/11 whether in uniform or not, have died in vain". You are there saying that sparing them would have eliminated absolutely no advantage we may have got for their sacrifice. This is for me already hypothetical enough even if you pointed it as "fact".

But you are probably right on the matter, that it deserves another thread. If you think you can counter my arguments in the last message, I would be interested on knowing, how. Please open the thread. If you are not, then it is superfluous.

Best regards.

< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 5/29/2013 1:18:48 AM >

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RE: Why celebrate dead soldiers? - 5/29/2013 1:38:54 AM

Just0Plain0Mike

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

You are the one who would love to see a scenario where people who suffered much suffer a bit more. So... explain?

Maybe this is a language barrier thing, but this really isn't complicated. When someone says something along the lines of, "I'd love to see you say that to X" or "I'd love to see you say that to my face", or some variant there of. The implication is that if you say that to them, you're going to get your ass kicked for it.

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RE: Why celebrate dead soldiers? - 5/29/2013 2:45:20 AM

SpanishMatMaster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Just0Plain0Mike

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster
You are the one who would love to see a scenario where people who suffered much suffer a bit more. So... explain?

Maybe this is a language barrier thing, but this really isn't complicated. When someone says something along the lines of, "I'd love to see you say that to X" or "I'd love to see you say that to my face", or some variant there of. The implication is that if you say that to them, you're going to get your ass kicked for it.

In this case the ones kicking his ass could suffer just for hearing it. Maybe. If they share some opinions. So why would he want those people to suffer more?
And does he really think that violence is deserved for that opinion?

I have the impression that the sentence was not well thought, and cruel to everybody. If he told me that "it was not real, I just wanted to say that..." then I would be glad to hear it, but he is ( stubbornly? ) supporting that "any comments made here on the boards should be backed up by the willingness to repeat said comments face to face", even in scenarios where this would be IMHO completely absurd.

And I would love to know what comes after the "I wanted to say that". Because "Somebody is going to kick your ass if you say this in this or that situation" is hardly an argument to proof that the sentence is wrong, isn't it? See my other examples. So, what was that? Expressing desire to damage the author even damaging the love ones of soldiers killed? What kind of argument is THAT?

I thought we come here to discuss with arguments, not to express the wish that anyone suffers.

Sorry for the long posting.

< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 5/29/2013 2:46:14 AM >

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