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[Poll]

Moral value of a foreign life?


We should be able to sacrifice >1 countrymen for 1 foreigner.
  14% (3)
The countryman and the foreigner's life have the same value.
  42% (9)
It is ok to sacrifice some foreigners for one countryman, only some.
  9% (2)
Around 1000 foreigners for one countryman is a fair deal.
  0% (0)
No amount of foreigners justify sacrificing one single countryman.
  33% (7)


Total Votes : 21
(last vote on : 5/29/2013 6:20:04 AM)
(Poll ended: 5/31/2013 12:00:00 AM)
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RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 5/27/2013 9:23:57 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Not really...they may be insane but they are still criminals... just nutty ones.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 5/27/2013 9:24:37 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 5/27/2013 10:19:36 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		Not a reply to kdsub but it will post that way.

Real life situation.

WWII
You have the bomb drop it and save your soldiers (and your allies men as well)

or do you refuse to and sacrifice God only know how many of your (and allies) men to avoid killing the enemy.

I say drop it even if it exterminates Japan.

If you are asking if a man walks on to an island and kills 75 people do I find it less horrific because they aren't Americans , no way. maybe the question needs to be refined.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 5/27/2013 10:27:18 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
I didn't vote because the poll is set up as an either/or proposition. On the one hand, certainly the life of someone from another country is no less valuable than the life of someone from my country. But on the other hand, in a life or death conflict all bets are off. So I would have had to vote for both the second option and the last.

K.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 5/27/2013 10:40:11 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		Fallacy of the excluded middle.

Just because some posters are giving answers that match what you are looking for, does not mean that the several posters who are telling you that your question is less than clear, are wrong.


quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

Hello, Powergamz1

Apparently it is precise enough for many people to answer. That's all I need.

<SNIP>
Best regards.



< Message edited by Powergamz1 -- 5/27/2013 10:41:16 PM >

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" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 5/28/2013 3:20:46 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


Posts: 967
Joined: 9/28/2011
Status: offline 		Hello, Powergamz1.

No, it is no fallacy of the excluded middle, it only the fact that the question is clear enough for many people to answer. They do answer. If it is "less than clear" according to some degree / level / threshold that you have decided to establish, this has nothing to do with my assertion and is actually not so important for me. But it is a fact that it was clear enough for them to answer. They actually, factually did answer. No dilemma here, therefore also no false dilemma. Only facts.

Best regards.

_____________________________

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If I don't answer you, maybe I "hid" you: PM me if you want.
“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, pause and reflect.” (Mark Twain)

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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 5/28/2013 3:55:11 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

I didn't vote because the poll is set up as an either/or proposition. On the one hand, certainly the life of someone from another country is no less valuable than the life of someone from my country. But on the other hand, in a life or death conflict all bets are off. So I would have had to vote for both the second option and the last.
K.


There was a general condition set out by the OP:
    quote:

    The context are questions about geopolitics, wars, interventions, reactions to deaths, etc.


To me, I read that to mean a more conflict-type situation.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 5/28/2013 5:35:50 AM   
muhly22222


Posts: 463
Joined: 3/25/2010
Status: offline 		FR

You ask about the moral value of life, and then ask in relation to wars and other geopolitical situations.

Morally, every single human life should be protected, and every death caused by another human is a tragedy. But if I'm in a Presidential position, where I have to make decisions that impact everybody in my country, I have to consider the lives of my people as being more important than the lives of the other guys. I know that, in that position, some decisions I make are going to lead to the deaths of my countrymen, and I know that some decisions (often the same ones) are going to lead to the deaths of foreigners. But I have a duty to protect Americans (because I'm a U.S. citizen).

With that being said, no decision would be about simply killing "the other guys." Decisions that led to the deaths of foreigners would be based on an objective, even if I know that to accomplish that objective, there will have to be death. Think of it like this: after 9/11, the U.S. invaded Afghanistan. If I had been President, I probably would have done so, with the objective of removing the Taliban and al-Qaeda from the country. Because of the nature of those organizations, the only way to accomplish that objective would have been to kill a certain number of their members, but it would never be about the death toll.

_____________________________

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-Woodrow Wilson

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 5/28/2013 6:03:34 AM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		From a combat vet's point of view, the third choice applies.

However, objectively, the eye for an eye mentality creates a never ending circle of violence, which is the most accurate.

Considering both statements, I have to say, harm one American, and may we rain the wrath of god on whoever or whatever country had a hand in it, avoiding if possible non combatants.

< Message edited by jlf1961 -- 5/28/2013 6:05:46 AM >

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 5/28/2013 1:52:40 PM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
Status: offline 		Context is important here.

Last I checked 1129 people died in the Bangladesh factory while making cheap clothing for the Western world to consume. How is that for how much we value the lives of others?




_____________________________

~ ftp

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 5/28/2013 2:27:46 PM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline 		I don't understand the question. There is no context. Are you talking about a war?

and if a country attacked either New Zealand or America, i would be volunteering my 55 female arse to defend and repel invaders. and that would involve killing them if need be. I won't go looking for a fight, but i will fight to protect the ones i love. Moral issues i would have to weigh my response to , but attacking loved ones needs no thought.


edited to add - there are times when i think sending troops overseas is warrented - think the killing fields of Cambodia - and in that case, i would hope we would get at least a thousand bad guys for each of "us" killed.

< Message edited by kiwisub12 -- 5/28/2013 2:29:23 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 5/28/2013 9:21:48 PM   
SpanishMatMaster


Posts: 967
Joined: 9/28/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub12
I don't understand the question. There is no context. Are you talking about a war?
The question is general. If you cannot answer it generally, this is already an answer for me. Thank you.


_____________________________

Humanist (therefore Atheist), intelligent, cultivated and very humble :)
If I don't answer you, maybe I "hid" you: PM me if you want.
“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, pause and reflect.” (Mark Twain)

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 5/29/2013 12:11:20 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

Context is important here.

Last I checked 1129 people died in the Bangladesh factory while making cheap clothing for the Western world to consume. How is that for how much we value the lives of others?




This.

_____________________________



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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 5/29/2013 4:56:59 AM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		Interesting how in another thread you are demanding that everyone else explain themselves in great detail, to the ridiculous point of defending a literal interpretation of an idiom that isn't supposed to be read literally... But here, it's 'discussion' when you refuse to fill in the gaps you've left with your poorly constructed questions.

One-way much?


quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub12
I don't understand the question. There is no context. Are you talking about a war?
The question is general. If you cannot answer it generally, this is already an answer for me. Thank you.




< Message edited by Powergamz1 -- 5/29/2013 4:57:32 AM >

_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 5/29/2013 5:12:07 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub12
I don't understand the question. There is no context. Are you talking about a war?
and if a country attacked either New Zealand or America, i would be volunteering my 55 female arse to defend and repel invaders. and that would involve killing them if need be. I won't go looking for a fight, but i will fight to protect the ones i love. Moral issues i would have to weigh my response to , but attacking loved ones needs no thought.
edited to add - there are times when i think sending troops overseas is warrented - think the killing fields of Cambodia - and in that case, i would hope we would get at least a thousand bad guys for each of "us" killed.


The context was provided in the OP's initial post, after the question.
    quote:

    The context are questions about geopolitics, wars, interventions, reactions to deaths, etc.



_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to kiwisub12)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 5/29/2013 5:36:32 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


Posts: 967
Joined: 9/28/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1
Interesting how in another thread you are demanding that everyone else explain themselves in great detail, to the ridiculous point of defending a literal interpretation of an idiom that isn't supposed to be read literally... But here, it's 'discussion' when you refuse to fill in the gaps you've left with your poorly constructed questions.

One-way much?
I do not demand anything from "everyone".
I do not defend a literal interpretation of anything if some better one is provided.
I do not discuss here, this is a poll.
I think that filling any more gaps after people have started answering would disturb the homogeneity of the poll. You should learn statistics.
I do no see the point of attacking me, nobody forces you to answer if you feel you can't.

... this, added to your previous posting where you accused me of a fallacy of false dilemma when I stated no dilemma at all, and you announced that the question was "not clear enough" when it is obvious that for 20 people it was clear enough to answer (facts hurt, I guess) and that is what matters for me... and these things have convinced me that it is more constructive if we stop communicating here. I do not think that I will learn anything from you, nor you from me. Therefore, I have now "hidden" you.

No disrespect intended, but best regards and have a nice life.

< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 5/29/2013 5:45:04 AM >

_____________________________

Humanist (therefore Atheist), intelligent, cultivated and very humble :)
If I don't answer you, maybe I "hid" you: PM me if you want.
“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, pause and reflect.” (Mark Twain)

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 5/31/2013 9:32:24 PM   
SpanishMatMaster


Posts: 967
Joined: 9/28/2011
Status: offline 		¡Thank you all for your participation!

It has been frightening but instructive. The amount of people who are ready to sacrifice any amount of foreign lives for one single countryman shows me the intensity of ultra-nationalism in some countries. Frightening. But instructive.

I could now make more polls asking for more concrete details, but I do not want to flood the forum. Maybe later.

_____________________________

Humanist (therefore Atheist), intelligent, cultivated and very humble :)
If I don't answer you, maybe I "hid" you: PM me if you want.
“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, pause and reflect.” (Mark Twain)

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 6/1/2013 9:05:10 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

It has been frightening but instructive. The amount of people who are ready to sacrifice any amount of foreign lives for one single countryman shows me the intensity of ultra-nationalism in some countries. Frightening. But instructive.


I wouldn't take too much from your poll... By many of the posts you must know not many were impressed by your wording and choices. It is like a poll where the possible answers make a fair unbiased result impossible. Many...me included just clicked on that option because it was so outlandish.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 6/1/2013 9:20:30 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

¡Thank you all for your participation!

It has been frightening but instructive. The amount of people who are ready to sacrifice any amount of foreign lives for one single countryman shows me the intensity of ultra-nationalism in some countries. Frightening. But instructive.

I could now make more polls asking for more concrete details, but I do not want to flood the forum. Maybe later.

The poll only confirms 2.5 million years of evolution since homonids first left the shrinking forests and ventured out on to the savannahs. That's a tough, predator filled environment with no place to hide and either the group sticks together against all comers to possibly survive or they all die separately.

Those who were the most rabidly group oriented survived the environment and transferred their DNA to succeeding generations. Those who weren't group oriented fed the leopards and vultures.
Those evolutionary pressures continued unabated until well after the industrial revolution.

We are a violent, warlike, group oriented us against everything species because of 2.5 Million years of evolutionary pressure and you can't just undo that in a couple of generations.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 6/1/2013 10:14:19 AM   
cordeliasub


Posts: 528
Joined: 11/4/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: muhly22222

FR

You ask about the moral value of life, and then ask in relation to wars and other geopolitical situations.

Morally, every single human life should be protected, and every death caused by another human is a tragedy. But if I'm in a Presidential position, where I have to make decisions that impact everybody in my country, I have to consider the lives of my people as being more important than the lives of the other guys. I know that, in that position, some decisions I make are going to lead to the deaths of my countrymen, and I know that some decisions (often the same ones) are going to lead to the deaths of foreigners. But I have a duty to protect Americans (because I'm a U.S. citizen).

With that being said, no decision would be about simply killing "the other guys." Decisions that led to the deaths of foreigners would be based on an objective, even if I know that to accomplish that objective, there will have to be death. Think of it like this: after 9/11, the U.S. invaded Afghanistan. If I had been President, I probably would have done so, with the objective of removing the Taliban and al-Qaeda from the country. Because of the nature of those organizations, the only way to accomplish that objective would have been to kill a certain number of their members, but it would never be about the death toll.



EXCELLENT post with a great deal of evidence of higher order thinking :) :) :)

(in reply to muhly22222)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 6/1/2013 8:17:26 PM   
SpanishMatMaster


Posts: 967
Joined: 9/28/2011
Status: offline 		Thanks for your comments, but I think that the question was clear enough and even if there will always be some noise in a poll, the results are indeed significative.

_____________________________

Humanist (therefore Atheist), intelligent, cultivated and very humble :)
If I don't answer you, maybe I "hid" you: PM me if you want.
“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, pause and reflect.” (Mark Twain)

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)
Profile   Post #: 40
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