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[Poll]

Moral value of a foreign life?


We should be able to sacrifice >1 countrymen for 1 foreigner.
  14% (3)
The countryman and the foreigner's life have the same value.
  42% (9)
It is ok to sacrifice some foreigners for one countryman, only some.
  9% (2)
Around 1000 foreigners for one countryman is a fair deal.
  0% (0)
No amount of foreigners justify sacrificing one single countryman.
  33% (7)


Total Votes : 21
(last vote on : 5/29/2013 6:20:04 AM)
(Poll ended: 5/31/2013 12:00:00 AM)
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RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 6/1/2013 8:35:14 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		And the same 'significitance' could have been achieved without the push poll and the foregone conclusions.


quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

Thanks for your comments, but I think that the question was clear enough and even if there will always be some noise in a poll, the results are indeed significative.



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(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)
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RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 6/1/2013 10:34:46 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

Thanks for your comments, but I think that the question was clear enough and even if there will always be some noise in a poll, the results are indeed significative.


Actually, I DO know statistics, and your "poll" wouldn't qualify in the least of having any statistical significance, AND it proves that they can be intentionally manipulated to fit the statistician's agenda.

Of course, I believe you have me on hide, so you won't answer anyway. But this is just another of your little follies, trying to prove your own theories, which in themselves are faulty. Everyone else has already explained why.

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RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 6/2/2013 5:28:04 AM   
eulero83


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

Thanks for your comments, but I think that the question was clear enough and even if there will always be some noise in a poll, the results are indeed significative.


I know I'm on hide for spanishmatmaster but I'm writing this comment for inteligent persons so there is no loss, 21 is far from be considered a significative simple, and the sentence "No amount of foreigners justify sacrificing one single countryman" doesn't mean nationalism, it means to not agree in being involved in international dangerous situation.

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 6/2/2013 9:00:14 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline 		American. No spot for my vote.

One Foreigner = 1 American

I don't deal in things like "sacrificing lives" on the basis of national identity. Sometimes lives must be saved and other times spent but it isn't going to be a flag which brings me to those decisions. To me, a human life is a human life and worth about exactly what the other 7 billion human lives are worth.

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RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 6/2/2013 9:40:53 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

Thanks for your comments, but I think that the question was clear enough and even if there will always be some noise in a poll, the results are indeed significative.

I completely disagree.

Like most of your questions, proposals and even in this poll, they are badly phrased/worded, loaded, and would never give any sane person any sense of independant and unbiased result.

Your sample is just waaay too small to give any representative value.
And, given the number of people who have criticized it and been unable to answer it is more representative of your inability to construct anything of unbiased nature.

But, as usual, you will just waive this answer away because it doesn't suit what you want or fits your agenda.

Think whatever you like but most of us know it's just pissing in the wind.


ETA: ^^^^^ I second what Jeff has said ^^^^^


< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 6/2/2013 9:42:03 AM >

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RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 6/2/2013 11:16:46 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

American. No spot for my vote.

One Foreigner = 1 American
Thank you, I will count it in.


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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 6/2/2013 11:31:39 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster
One Foreigner = 1 American

Honestly there wouldn't be enough of that answer to matter anyway. I suspect basic biology prevents it for almost everyone. Realistically, matters of pack association matter and they ought to matter. I just have some issues with the specific ways we make such judgement and the specific qualifiers we use.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 6/3/2013 12:25:03 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
I suspect basic biology prevents it for almost everyone. Realistically, matters of pack association matter and they ought to matter.

I suspect you are utterly wrong, because there is absolutely no biological necessity of the "pack" being the State, an artificial construct which did not exist in 99.9999% of our time as species, and never before.

Besides that, biology is almost never, or never, a limit for morality. I do not think that you can give a single biological tendency which I cannot find cultural counterexamples. For example (just as example) if you would give the tendency to reproduct (I know, you won't) I would present you catholic priests.

So no, I suspect you are utterly, absolutely wrong, for two different, mutually independent, reasons.

Best regards.

_____________________________

Humanist (therefore Atheist), intelligent, cultivated and very humble :)
If I don't answer you, maybe I "hid" you: PM me if you want.
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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 6/3/2013 12:54:45 AM   
MrBukani


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

American. No spot for my vote.

One Foreigner = 1 American

I don't deal in things like "sacrificing lives" on the basis of national identity. Sometimes lives must be saved and other times spent but it isn't going to be a flag which brings me to those decisions. To me, a human life is a human life and worth about exactly what the other 7 billion human lives are worth.


So you are saying you love you own kid just as much as your neighbor's kid. Sounds like you're Jesus to me.

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 6/3/2013 2:05:27 AM   
eulero83


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

American. No spot for my vote.

One Foreigner = 1 American

I don't deal in things like "sacrificing lives" on the basis of national identity. Sometimes lives must be saved and other times spent but it isn't going to be a flag which brings me to those decisions. To me, a human life is a human life and worth about exactly what the other 7 billion human lives are worth.


So you are saying you love you own kid just as much as your neighbor's kid. Sounds like you're Jesus to me.


well I can tell you I care about my friends that come from or live in different countries but if I see smoke coming from the house of that asshole of my neighbour I'll wait a couple minutes before calling firemans.

< Message edited by eulero83 -- 6/3/2013 2:06:06 AM >

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RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 6/3/2013 5:51:52 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


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Joined: 9/28/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
American. No spot for my vote.

One Foreigner = 1 American

I don't deal in things like "sacrificing lives" on the basis of national identity. Sometimes lives must be saved and other times spent but it isn't going to be a flag which brings me to those decisions. To me, a human life is a human life and worth about exactly what the other 7 billion human lives are worth.


So you are saying you love you own kid just as much as your neighbor's kid. Sounds like you're Jesus to me.

So you are saying that you are the father of all children in your State. Sounds like you're Lord Walden Frey of the Twins to me.

< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 6/3/2013 5:52:31 AM >

_____________________________

Humanist (therefore Atheist), intelligent, cultivated and very humble :)
If I don't answer you, maybe I "hid" you: PM me if you want.
“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, pause and reflect.” (Mark Twain)

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 6/3/2013 7:29:05 AM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline 		If you hold true to the moral value conception, that it is equal to all. You will value your own kid just as much as any other kid. Nice equasion in theory. Near impossible in reality, isn't it?
How can you value anybody equal like that. Do you value Charles Manson's life as a moral equal to your own?
Cause then the equasion get's a little scary, doesn't it?

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RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 6/3/2013 7:36:37 AM   
thursdays


Posts: 143
Joined: 7/28/2011
Status: offline 		[ah]

< Message edited by thursdays -- 6/3/2013 7:37:18 AM >

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RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 6/3/2013 9:37:33 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


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Joined: 9/28/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani
If you hold true to the moral value conception, that it is equal to all. You will value your own kid just as much as any other kid.
No.

The question is explicitly and exactly about dividing by states, not about any other possible kind of division between people.

Therefore, you are committing a fallacy. As simple as this.

Same fallacy as if you would say "if you do not admit racial segregation to see any movie in the theater you should not admit that minors cannot see any movie in the theater". That *ONE* differentiation is inadequate or unused does not mean that OTHERS are not.

So, pay more attention please, quit the fallacies and speak seriously... or let it be. Please.

Thanks.


< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 6/3/2013 9:38:43 AM >

_____________________________

Humanist (therefore Atheist), intelligent, cultivated and very humble :)
If I don't answer you, maybe I "hid" you: PM me if you want.
“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, pause and reflect.” (Mark Twain)

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 6/3/2013 6:37:55 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

Are you talking about reprisals?

I am a US citizen.

In the case of reprisals, as many as it takes.



How do you decide how many it takes?

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RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 6/3/2013 6:40:04 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

FR


“I want you to remember, that no poor dumb bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it, by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country.”
― George S. Patton Jr., War as I Knew It


Answers the question, in my opinion.



So,like patton you feel that the military is made up of poor dumb bastards?

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RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 6/3/2013 6:48:19 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

Hello, Powergamz1.

No, it is no fallacy of the excluded middle, it only the fact that the question is clear enough for many people to answer. They do answer. If it is "less than clear" according to some degree / level / threshold that you have decided to establish, this has nothing to do with my assertion and is actually not so important for me. But it is a fact that it was clear enough for them to answer. They actually, factually did answer. No dilemma here, therefore also no false dilemma. Only facts.

Best regards.


So far everyone that has posted that the question is faulty has been told the same thing. That would mean that even though a significant number of the responders point out a lack of clarity you maintain that they are too stupid to understand and only those who agree with the moronic classifications posted are meaningful responses.

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RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 6/3/2013 6:52:18 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: muhly22222

FR

You ask about the moral value of life, and then ask in relation to wars and other geopolitical situations.

Morally, every single human life should be protected, and every death caused by another human is a tragedy. But if I'm in a Presidential position, where I have to make decisions that impact everybody in my country, I have to consider the lives of my people as being more important than the lives of the other guys. [/qote]

Why?


quote:

I know that, in that position, some decisions I make are going to lead to the deaths of my countrymen, and I know that some decisions (often the same ones) are going to lead to the deaths of foreigners. But I have a duty to protect Americans (because I'm a U.S. citizen).


Where in the constitution does it say that?

quote:

With that being said, no decision would be about simply killing "the other guys." Decisions that led to the deaths of foreigners would be based on an objective, even if I know that to accomplish that objective, there will have to be death. Think of it like this: after 9/11, the U.S. invaded Afghanistan. If I had been President, I probably would have done so, with the objective of removing the Taliban and al-Qaeda from the country. Because of the nature of those organizations, the only way to accomplish that objective would have been to kill a certain number of their members, but it would never be about the death toll.


It appears that "getting even" is more important than finding out why and solving the problem.

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RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 6/3/2013 6:55:15 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

From a combat vet's point of view, the third choice applies.

However, objectively, the eye for an eye mentality creates a never ending circle of violence, which is the most accurate.

Considering both statements, I have to say, harm one American, and may we rain the wrath of god on whoever or whatever country had a hand in it, avoiding if possible non combatants.


So whether or not the dead american deserved to die "we" need to get even?
Perhaps if one were to actually look up the "eye for an eye" thing one would not post such drivel.

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RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 6/3/2013 6:56:58 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub12
I don't understand the question. There is no context. Are you talking about a war?
The question is general. If you cannot answer it generally, this is already an answer for me. Thank you.


Another poster too stupid to understand the drivel posted?
How can so many of us be so dumb?

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)
Profile   Post #: 60
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