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[Poll]

Moral value of a foreign life?


We should be able to sacrifice >1 countrymen for 1 foreigner.
  14% (3)
The countryman and the foreigner's life have the same value.
  42% (9)
It is ok to sacrifice some foreigners for one countryman, only some.
  9% (2)
Around 1000 foreigners for one countryman is a fair deal.
  0% (0)
No amount of foreigners justify sacrificing one single countryman.
  33% (7)


Total Votes : 21
(last vote on : 5/29/2013 6:20:04 AM)
(Poll ended: 5/31/2013 12:00:00 AM)
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RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 6/5/2013 2:01:22 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


Posts: 967
Joined: 9/28/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
Ahhhh... For me the political unit means nothing and I try to fight against the proximity thing but that is very hard to do viscerally.
It's ok, you are wired this way. I just shown that there are other forms to understand the "local tribe" with have nothing to do with the state, and people actually use them (there are some dixies still, yes? :) ).


_____________________________

Humanist (therefore Atheist), intelligent, cultivated and very humble :)
If I don't answer you, maybe I "hid" you: PM me if you want.
“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, pause and reflect.” (Mark Twain)

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 6/5/2013 6:19:59 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Real life situation.

WWII
You have the bomb drop it and save your soldiers (and your allies men as well)

or do you refuse to and sacrifice God only know how many of your (and allies) men to avoid killing the enemy.

I say drop it even if it exterminates Japan.


That may be because you are ignorant of the facts of ww2.



You are only 180% off.


How so? The japs started trying to surrender in 1943...at least according to toland and the historicl record.
The destruction of their army in china by the russians removed the last significant combat toops available to them.
So now we are left with "exterminate japan" as a justification.
If we had exterminated them how would we have been able to expropriate their heavy industry? Tell us again who owns the shipyard which produced the largest battle ship in the world? Doesn't that shipyard pfoduce supertankers ? How much did they pay the japs for private property?

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 6/5/2013 6:27:27 AM >

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 6/5/2013 6:22:59 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

Ahhhh... For me the political unit means nothing and I try to fight against the proximity thing but that is very hard to do viscerally. As an nrelated aside, a paper on modern slavery put the value of a human life at no more than 5000 USD anywhere in the world and most places much less.


That is a little pricy...in east l.a. you can pop a cap in someone's ass for a nickle bag of reds.

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 6/5/2013 3:35:38 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Real life situation.

WWII
You have the bomb drop it and save your soldiers (and your allies men as well)

or do you refuse to and sacrifice God only know how many of your (and allies) men to avoid killing the enemy.

I say drop it even if it exterminates Japan.


That may be because you are ignorant of the facts of ww2.



You are only 180% off.


How so? The japs started trying to surrender in 1943...at least according to toland and the historicl record.
The destruction of their army in china by the russians removed the last significant combat toops available to them.
So now we are left with "exterminate japan" as a justification.
If we had exterminated them how would we have been able to expropriate their heavy industry? Tell us again who owns the shipyard which produced the largest battle ship in the world? Doesn't that shipyard pfoduce supertankers ? How much did they pay the japs for private property?

In 45 the Japanese plan was to inflict so many casualties that we would just quit.
The had a plan to use bacteriological warfare against San Diego if we invaded.
The army tried to kill Hirohito because he was willing to surrender after the first bomb.
Any "surrender" in 43 would have allowed the Japanese to keep all their gains in China and would have left their military in tact to try again.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 6/6/2013 3:18:01 AM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
Ahhhh... For me the political unit means nothing and I try to fight against the proximity thing but that is very hard to do viscerally.
It's ok, you are wired this way. I just shown that there are other forms to understand the "local tribe" with have nothing to do with the state, and people actually use them (there are some dixies still, yes? :) ).



Aww you made up a new word? The "local tribe" like the Dixies? No wonder you have a hard time getting with it. Again this is exactly what politicians do to veil the truth. Make up new word combo's.
Striking resemblance.
There is enough words in the dictionary to put any problem into rational language.
This is just babble to confirm your own grasp on reality.

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 6/6/2013 3:47:59 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

Aww you made up a new word? The "local tribe" like the Dixies? No wonder you have a hard time getting with it. Again this is exactly what politicians do to veil the truth. Make up new word combo's.
Striking resemblance.
There is enough words in the dictionary to put any problem into rational language.
This is just babble to confirm your own grasp on reality.



Ah the irony.

(in reply to MrBukani)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 6/6/2013 4:28:10 AM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

Aww you made up a new word? The "local tribe" like the Dixies? No wonder you have a hard time getting with it. Again this is exactly what politicians do to veil the truth. Make up new word combo's.
Striking resemblance.
There is enough words in the dictionary to put any problem into rational language.
This is just babble to confirm your own grasp on reality.



Ah the irony.


Guess you are my new wingman. Keep it up.
Thank you very much, this is not a hollow thank you, it's genuine to the cause.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 6/6/2013 7:45:29 AM   
egern


Posts: 537
Joined: 1/11/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

I am trying to find out the general feeling here about the value of a life of someone of your country, compared to the life of a foreigner.

I try to give both extremes and everything between. The context are questions about geopolitics, wars, interventions, reactions to deaths, etc.

Please consider always equivalent lives. A soldier for a soldier, a child for a child, etc.

PS: If you can post here your nationality associated to your vote, I would be glad.

Thank you all!




Obviously a life is a life, and no life is more important than another. I realize not many think like that, and in light of for instance drone attacks it is clear that the US leadership thinks that foreign lives do not count much. For the public - any public - it seems the further away casualties are, the less they count.

I am Danish.

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 6/6/2013 10:37:58 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

How so? The japs started trying to surrender in 1943...at least according to toland and the historicl record.
The destruction of their army in china by the russians removed the last significant combat toops available to them.
So now we are left with "exterminate japan" as a justification.
If we had exterminated them how would we have been able to expropriate their heavy industry? Tell us again who owns the shipyard which produced the largest battle ship in the world? Doesn't that shipyard pfoduce supertankers ? How much did they pay the japs for private property?


quote:

In 45 the Japanese plan was to inflict so many casualties that we would just quit.


Not according to toland.
quote:


The had a plan to use bacteriological warfare against San Diego if we invaded.


Validation please.


quote:

The army tried to kill Hirohito because he was willing to surrender after the first bomb.


Not according to toland.
quote:

Any "surrender" in 43 would have allowed the Japanese to keep all their gains in China and would have left their military in tact to try again.


[]To try what again?

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 6/6/2013 12:37:59 PM   
SpanishMatMaster


Posts: 967
Joined: 9/28/2011
Status: offline 		Thank you, egren.

_____________________________

Humanist (therefore Atheist), intelligent, cultivated and very humble :)
If I don't answer you, maybe I "hid" you: PM me if you want.
“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, pause and reflect.” (Mark Twain)

(in reply to egern)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 6/6/2013 3:57:57 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

It's hard to sort this out because we are "wired" to think about local tribes not global communities. But my higher level intellect understands that technology has changed the world and I can no longer afford to worry about local first.


I think that's it in a nutshell, Jeff. Me, I know in my heart of hearts that I will feel more about, say, the death of a Briton than I will about the death of a Sudanese or a Chinese.

But that isn't the point, I've concluded. The point of morality is precisely to stick to a moral code *despite* one's feelings and what even the 'heart of hearts says'. If that means going against one's 'gut', then so be it. The gut is emphatically not always right, no matter how many times they pump the opposite message (which has always somewhat stunk of anti-rationalism, to me) in Hollywood and elsewhere.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 6/6/2013 4:12:41 PM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 6/6/2013 5:06:56 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

Guess you are my new wingman. Keep it up.
Thank you very much, this is not a hollow thank you, it's genuine to the cause.



Gee bro, as much as I love the idea of being your wingman, think of me more as a kindly schoolmaster, looking over your shoulder and correcting your errors.

(in reply to MrBukani)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 6/6/2013 5:08:12 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

It's hard to sort this out because we are "wired" to think about local tribes not global communities. But my higher level intellect understands that technology has changed the world and I can no longer afford to worry about local first.


I think that's it in a nutshell, Jeff. Me, I know in my heart of hearts that I will feel more about, say, the death of a Briton than I will about the death of a Sudanese or a Chinese.

But that isn't the point, I've concluded. The point of morality is precisely to stick to a moral code *despite* one's feelings and what even the 'heart of hearts says'. If that means going against one's 'gut', then so be it. The gut is emphatically not always right, no matter how many times they pump the opposite message (which has always somewhat stunk of anti-rationalism, to me) in Hollywood and elsewhere.


QFT......

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 6/6/2013 11:38:10 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		Not a criticism, but I've never been able to bring myself to think/feel that way. It's valid for you, it's a mystery to me.

Maybe it was reading the War Prayer at an early age, more likely it was living overseas for a few years while growing up, but I always have the same reaction... How can something (place of birth) over which you had no control and did nothing to earn, be so strong a factor like that?

I feel very lucky that I wasn't born in an extremely distressed situation, like a Somali refugee camp, but I literally don't 'get' the notion of 'Us' and 'Them beyond a frame of reference.

I really do wish that the concept of 'citizen of the world' had taken over long before now.


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

It's hard to sort this out because we are "wired" to think about local tribes not global communities. But my higher level intellect understands that technology has changed the world and I can no longer afford to worry about local first.


I think that's it in a nutshell, Jeff. Me, I know in my heart of hearts that I will feel more about, say, the death of a Briton than I will about the death of a Sudanese or a Chinese.

But that isn't the point, I've concluded. The point of morality is precisely to stick to a moral code *despite* one's feelings and what even the 'heart of hearts says'. If that means going against one's 'gut', then so be it. The gut is emphatically not always right, no matter how many times they pump the opposite message (which has always somewhat stunk of anti-rationalism, to me) in Hollywood and elsewhere.



_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 6/9/2013 9:50:33 PM   
SpanishMatMaster


Posts: 967
Joined: 9/28/2011
Status: offline 		Ok then... thanks everybody again, I am desubscribing now. Thanks! Thanks!

_____________________________

Humanist (therefore Atheist), intelligent, cultivated and very humble :)
If I don't answer you, maybe I "hid" you: PM me if you want.
“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, pause and reflect.” (Mark Twain)

(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 6/10/2013 2:24:09 AM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

Guess you are my new wingman. Keep it up.
Thank you very much, this is not a hollow thank you, it's genuine to the cause.



Gee bro, as much as I love the idea of being your wingman, think of me more as a kindly schoolmaster, looking over your shoulder and correcting your errors.


What people percieve as right or wrong changes with time. Otherwise we would still be stoning suckers and believing cannabis is worse than alcohol.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 6/10/2013 3:52:21 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

What people percieve as right or wrong changes with time. Otherwise we would still be stoning suckers and believing cannabis is worse than alcohol.


Speaking of cannabis, dont smoke and post......really.

(in reply to MrBukani)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 6/17/2013 7:41:34 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

What people percieve as right or wrong changes with time. Otherwise we would still be stoning suckers and believing cannabis is worse than alcohol.


Speaking of cannabis, dont smoke and post......really.



Wouldn't that be counterproductive?

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 6/17/2013 8:41:09 AM   
Charles6682


Posts: 1820
Joined: 10/1/2007
From: Saint Pete,FL
Status: online 		Life is life,period.

(in reply to UllrsIshtar)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Moral value of a foreign life? - 6/17/2013 2:58:12 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		Not according to toland.

Toland was a fool.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 100
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