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RE: Conditional love and BDSM - 5/28/2013 5:59:02 PM   
njlauren


Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
Status: offline 		I am not really sure even what unconditional love is.....though we don't control who we love, fall in love with, and in that sense it is unconditional, I am not sure that love will stay in all conditions, because you can fall out of love with someone. I don't think unconditional love means you stay with someone no matter what, it means you love them but can't be with them, so in that sense it may be unconditional. However, if a partner cheats on your or betrays you, you could fall out of love with them because of it, so in that sense, would it be unconditional?

To be honest, I am not even sure you can say the bond between parent and child is unconditional, at least on the parent side, kids are wired to love their parents unconditionally, but it isn't necessarily the other way around, I have seen enough parents I would say didn't love that way, no way, I have seen come pretty cold shit, where I doubt they ever loved the child....

I think initially we do give love unconditionally when we fall in love, though.

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RE: Conditional love and BDSM - 5/28/2013 6:06:25 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Im not saying everyone is capable of unconditional love. I merely said, for myself, that the only unconditional love I hold is for my son. Even my love for my parents cant rival that.

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RE: Conditional love and BDSM - 5/28/2013 6:16:46 PM   
NuevaVida


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

For me, unconditional love means nothing can ever hope to change it. You love them no matter what they could possibly do.


That's what it means for me, too, and based on that, no, I do not love in a romantic way unconditionally. I know there are things others can do that would shut my love off, no matter how strong that love might be. I know this because it's happened, much to my own surprise.

I don't have kids, so I don't know that kind of love. My cat - yes, I can't imagine my cat being so vengeful and vindictive and vile as to shut my love off. But a husband of nearly 20 years did. And I loved him through a LOT, too. I would have continued loving him from afar, too, had he not launched that final blow. And that came as a huge surprise to me, to realize that just like a light switch shut off, my love for him was gone. Poof.

Interesting this topic comes up now, as the Mister and I were just talking about it over the weekend. It was surprising to him to learn I do not love unconditionally. I explained that yes, there are "conditions" on my love - not like he has to meet XYZ criteria to get it, but that it is possible for my love to go away under extreme circumstances.

If my love were unconditional, I would still love my ex husband, and I would still love the ex owner dude. But I don't.
Just like it is possible for love to fade in relationships, when that love is not fed. At least for me, anyway.



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RE: Conditional love and BDSM - 5/28/2013 6:44:51 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		I disagree. My love is definitely conditional. There are certain things that people can do to me that would leave me feeling nothing at all for them. I'll admit I have a sister who I haven't talked to in over 10 years now. I feel no love for her and I don't feel at a loss for it either from her. I can also say that if my daughter ever did something horrible like murder someone in cold blood, I don't know that I could feel love for her. She would still be my daughter but I would never look at her the same ever again.

So imo, love is not unconditional. I think it's a fantasy that others like to build up in their minds from watching too many romance movies or reading too many Harlequin romances.


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RE: Conditional love and BDSM - 5/28/2013 7:21:18 PM   
ThundersCry54


Posts: 71
Joined: 5/6/2013
Status: offline 		Great question...

Setting bdsm aside...

For me love comes in many colors, the ones that I have loved in the past I will always hold some *kind* of love deep within my heart and soul for...they had deep impacts upon my life...As far as wheather it was *true* love or *unconditional love*...It makes little difference to me...

As far as my children go its definaltly *unconditional*...I cannot imagine them doing anything that could make me not love them in any other way than what I do, and will go to my grave doing so...It cost me relationships before... But `ey, I took on that role as a single parent with 5 of them with no reservations. None...

I have had to use *tough* love on a few at times in their lives, and it was wayyyyy harder on me than it was on them, but a few had their lives on the line. Did it cause resentment and bitterness towards me at the time. Yes! In the long run were those issues resolved...yes. I would NEVER have given up on them...I cried out for them daily...They are all a huge part of my life today and I am one BLESSED man....

And then came grandchildren...a love I never knew existed. WOW

All that being said, I know little of and or... about love -Laughs-

*agape* love...Thank you, Father...

(in reply to tazzygirl)
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RE: Conditional love and BDSM - 5/28/2013 8:19:53 PM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

For me, unconditional love means nothing can ever hope to change it. You love them no matter what they could possibly do .

Yes, this is the definition and you don't expect reciprocation although that would rock your world.

(in reply to ThundersCry54)
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RE: Conditional love and BDSM - 5/28/2013 8:25:08 PM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

I loved my dog unconditionally. People, not so much. Might be due to us having free will.

Yea, I don't know why it's so easy to love our pet unconditionally. I got cats, they destroy everything, curtains, furniture, puke hairballs everywhere, make me a slave feeding, cleaning up after them, they are aloof and aren't even affectionate towards me, acting like Queens of the house. Maybe it's because they cannot be reason with, they are like forever children. Maternal instinct kick in. And my cats are really dominant, like they won't come if I call them and sometimes even get grumpy when I pet them at my choosing, but they love to the choose the most inconvenient moment suddenly demand to be stroked and pet, and will aggressively plant themselves on me or forcefully rub themselves on my hands, demanding to get pet now. But I love them to pieces, even though I complain and moan to them about what horrible pets they are.


< Message edited by Greta75 -- 5/28/2013 8:26:07 PM >

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RE: Conditional love and BDSM - 5/28/2013 8:35:20 PM   
sexyred1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HisPet21

Staying in an abusive relationship isn't just unhealthy for the victim, but the abuser as well. Cruelty and unkindness are just as toxic to those who utilize them as those who suffer them at others' hands, IMHO. The loving thing for an abused person to do is leave the relationship. But anyway, given that, I see love as unconditional. When deciding who I will love, I may take into account their actions toward me and the nature of the relationship, but once I make that decision to love, it doesn't matter what changes, I feel I have a responsibility to care for the person in question.

People change, sometimes for the worse, but you can still love someone out of respect for who they once were.


I wanted to address the above. Not sure I agree that the abuser suffers as much as the abused in a toxic relationship. Otherwise, why would they be abusive? They obviously choose to be abusive. While the abused, does not choose to be abused, although one might think so by virtue of their staying in the toxic relationship.

I look at my own past relationship and I feel I got hurt by it more than he did; although if you are correct, he is suffering in silence. But I find it hard to believe that he feels as bad as he should because if he did, he would make the changes necessary to be a better man.

I do not believe love is unconditional other than for children and animals. It should be unconditional but human beings ruin love for each other by their choices in behavior.

I certainly hope that I do not continue to love anyone who hurt me deeply; that would really interfere with moving on and making room in my heart to let someone else in.

Finally, your last line about loving someone out of respect for who they once were? Oh god no. Especially if you find out that they never were who you thought they were. That does not deserve respect or ongoing love. Your thoughts are idealistic, which is lovely, but the reality is that some people continually ruin love for themselves and their partners and deserve to be alone.

(in reply to HisPet21)
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RE: Conditional love and BDSM - 5/28/2013 8:47:10 PM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline 		I always see an abuser as a mentally ill person. In that context, if someone you love is mentally ill, and you sitting around taking his abuse is not for his best interest in recovery and not part of unconditional love, because you're feeding what's toxic to him as a human development, thus best is to leave and urge him to seek help.

(in reply to sexyred1)
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RE: Conditional love and BDSM - 5/28/2013 8:51:19 PM   
sexyred1


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Status: offline 		I don't agree that all abusers are mentally ill. Some abusers are highly functioning people and are only abusive in an emotional manner.

So, leaving the relationship is often best for the emotional health of the abused party, and the abuser (who is not mentally ill) will never think to self examine their behavior, in fact, they are most likely to blame it on the other person. (she made me mad, she made me yell at her, she made me withdraw, she made me lie, she made me break promises, she made me not be there for her, etc.)

(in reply to Greta75)
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RE: Conditional love and BDSM - 5/28/2013 8:58:24 PM   
RemoteUser


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Joined: 5/10/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

I wanted to address the above. Not sure I agree that the abuser suffers as much as the abused in a toxic relationship. Otherwise, why would they be abusive? They obviously choose to be abusive.


More abusers react to social conditioning than consciously volunteer to be asshats. It's easier to train someone to be abusive by making their life hell than to simply develop an "evil gene", and that happens far too often to children and adults alike.

Having noted some interesting comments in this thread, I would offer this to the OP:

Love can be unconditional even when the trust and actions to express or support it, are not. We can consciously choose not to follow up on that chemical reaction that lights up the lower brain, but the chemical is still produced. My argument is supported by craving something when you're on a diet. o_O



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RE: Conditional love and BDSM - 5/28/2013 9:02:27 PM   
inchargeinca


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Joined: 5/26/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Saw this in the Ask a Master section and its always struck me as odd...

"True love is unconditional"

Do you agree or disagree and why?

I dont agree. My love is conditional... with the exception of my child, who didnt ask me to love him. I just cant wrap my head around the belief that, no matter what, i will love someone irregardless of what they say or do... and that if my love is "true" I will accept anything. Within a BDSM relationship, this is more true than the vanilla world. I may accept things that a typical so called "normal" relationship may not. However, there are things I wont tolerate, no matter how much I may love a person.




I have yet to encounter anything in life that was genuinely unconditional. It's just about the extent and type of conditions.

And I find when people affix the adjective "true" to anything, they usually are only saying: "The way I think or prefer to do something is the way everyone should think or act, and anyone who does differently than me is wrong."

"True" whatever is the height of pomposity.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
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RE: Conditional love and BDSM - 5/29/2013 3:00:33 AM   
LafayetteLady


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From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

For me, unconditional love means nothing can ever hope to change it. You love them no matter what they could possibly do.

My litmus test for this is as follows... my son could come home, tell me he killed the man I loved most in the world.. and I would still love my son. I would hate his actions, but the reality of that situation would not change my love for him.

However, the reverse could never be true


I haven't finished reading all the other posts, but RS says it best. "Love is unconditional, relationships are conditional."

So while you would love your son, but hate his actions, would you help pay for his defense?

Personally, no matter who my son killed, unless I knew it was in self defense, I wouldn't be assisting in his defense, and I made my career in the legal field for 20 years. I wouldn't assist him in his defense if he hit his fiance either.

Does that mean I would stop loving him? Of course not, but for many they view that as "conditional love." I don't.

The last time I was in love, it was unconditional. I forgave a great many transgressions (that I shouldn't have forgiven). Truth be told, while I don't actively feel that love anymore, it is because we are apart, and don't run in the same social circles, so I never see him. However, were I to see him again, even just driving by, those feelings would come rushing back. It sucks by the way, lol.

As for "true" love, I believe that is a totally different thing. In the relationship context, it is loving the whole person, not simply what they can do for you, or the sex for a couple of examples.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
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RE: Conditional love and BDSM - 5/29/2013 3:10:09 AM   
Greta75


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Joined: 2/6/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
Does that mean I would stop loving him? Of course not, but for many they view that as "conditional love." I don't.

I think when you love someone, you are suppose to want the best for someone. I view a son that has perpetuated a crime, what is good for him is to do his time and move on. Accept that he has made a mistake, accept the punishment, turn over a new leaf. So that doesn't make your love less conditional. Trying to bail him out of punishment IF he indeed commit the crime, would not be love, it would be harming him further, not allowing him to learn his lessons.


(in reply to LafayetteLady)
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RE: Conditional love and BDSM - 5/29/2013 3:17:11 AM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: inchargeinca
And I find when people affix the adjective "true" to anything, they usually are only saying: "The way I think or prefer to do something is the way everyone should think or act, and anyone who does differently than me is wrong."

"True" whatever is the height of pomposity.

In the case of true love, it is unconditional love, which is the hardest, most difficult to achieve, highest form of loving someone. Usually love breaks down when the other party does not return the love, and when it's not unconditional, people get very upset and hurt as they didn't get what they expect in return.
In this context, if unconditional love isn't true love, then what is?

(in reply to inchargeinca)
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RE: Conditional love and BDSM - 5/29/2013 3:20:30 AM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1
I don't agree that all abusers are mentally ill. Some abusers are highly functioning people and are only abusive in an emotional manner.

hmm, so like, you know things like depression is also a mental illness, but depressive can be highly functioning people as well. So mental illness comes in various degrees.
quote:

the abuser (who is not mentally ill) will never think to self examine their behavior, in fact, they are most likely to blame it on the other person. (she made me mad, she made me yell at her, she made me withdraw, she made me lie, she made me break promises, she made me not be there for her, etc.)

This is true, sometimes when someone is sick, it does not mean that they will admit or believe they are sick. Even with diseases, like cancer, people go into denial and even blame doctors are being incompetent by making wrong diagnosis.

(in reply to sexyred1)
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RE: Conditional love and BDSM - 5/29/2013 3:24:14 AM   
LafayetteLady


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From: Northern New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75


quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
Does that mean I would stop loving him? Of course not, but for many they view that as "conditional love." I don't.

I think when you love someone, you are suppose to want the best for someone. I view a son that has perpetuated a crime, what is good for him is to do his time and move on. Accept that he has made a mistake, accept the punishment, turn over a new leaf. So that doesn't make your love less conditional. Trying to bail him out of punishment IF he indeed commit the crime, would not be love, it would be harming him further, not allowing him to learn his lessons.




That was my point, that my love is unconditional, but at the same time, there are things I won't tolerate from people I love. Committing crimes is one of them.

(in reply to Greta75)
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RE: Conditional love and BDSM - 5/29/2013 3:29:47 AM   
Greta75


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Joined: 2/6/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
but at the same time, there are things I won't tolerate from people I love. Committing crimes is one of them.

And that love is still unconditional because despite his crime, you will still always be there for him in that difficult time and do all you can to help him get to a better place, and be a better person.
Different parents will react differently though. Some will disown their son. Some will definitely do everything they can to acquit their son, and I'm not sure if that's unconditional love, but usually people who do this, I think they are reacting to their own feelings and emotions, they can't deal with having a son in prison. But I think disowning isn't the right thing to do and doesn't seem very loving.

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
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RE: Conditional love and BDSM - 5/29/2013 5:59:20 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		I guess I have never felt unconditional love. My love has always been conditional. When my ex and I split up, after about a year I forgot all about him. I would see him around town from time to time, he would invite me out for lunch but never once did I feel anything for him whatsoever. He felt more like an acquaintance to me than ever being my Dom and we lived together for 5 years.

While I still love my husband since he passed away, there were times when we came awfully close to ending it all due to his behaviors. If we had, I think the only thing that would have kept us in contact with each other is our daughter and being our families are neighbors basically. But I don't know if I would have felt anything else for him other than him being the father of our child.

There were times when I didn't want to be around my daughter at all. I couldn't stand to be around her because of her anger and abuse issues. Did I love her during those times? To be honest, I'm not sure. I would have given anything to just walk away from her and disappear during that time. I think the only thing that ever stopped me was knowing I would have been arrested. The only thing right now that really makes me love her now is that she is an adult now and she has grown mature and we don't live together. But before that? I'm not so sure my love was unconditional for her. Yeah, I'm a bad mom <shrug>. I'm just honest with my feelings.

I wish I could say I have unconditional love for people, even Master but I'm just too aware of how my feelings and love can end for someone.


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RE: Conditional love and BDSM - 5/29/2013 6:25:30 PM   
Kana


Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline 		I'm a heartless bastard-what is this love you speak of?


(And purely BTW, I don't think humans can do much of anything unconditionally-we just ain't wired that way)

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(in reply to littlewonder)
Profile   Post #: 40
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