Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days?


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? - 5/31/2013 4:16:07 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

Nobody has ever started a war they have no chance in hell to win.


Afghanistan, a.k.a. the graveyard of empires, has seen plenty of wars, most started with no chance in hell to win.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to MrBukani)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? - 5/31/2013 4:51:16 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

The US withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan (where we ought not to have been from the gitgo) shows our waning interest in the Middle East. Surely well known that the American people will not tolerate our open involvement in another ME war. Libya was the last gasp for that game.


quote:

The development of methane hydrate, tar sands guck, and shale oil, and to a lesser extent non-carbon energy sources will lessen the security value of the Middle East to the US. We are already repositioning our forces into the Pacific. We really don't have a dog in that fight. They can fight over their bloody prophets all they like.


I completely agree with you here Vince, except for "we should never have been in Afghanistan" bit,...now if we could only get the people of the Middle East to understand and believe that our interests are no longer completely guided by oil.

I don't believe we are so worried about oil anymore but we are worried about Iran and its allies and of course Israel...thus our continued interest in Syria. I still believe the American people feel the greatest threat to America is the terror war against the US with its main supporter Iran and to a lesser extent Assad's Syria.

That said I believe our interest will not be waning for the foreseeable future but we will not be so willing to sacrifice American lives in direct intervention unless Israel is seriously threatened by any party in the region...and that would include Russia

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 5/31/2013 4:52:02 PM >


_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? - 5/31/2013 5:04:58 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Yeah right. Typical sociological nonsense. Think geopolitics and money. Qatar engineered and funded this whole business. They want to build a pipeline through Syria so they can pump their LNG production directly into Europe through Turkey. That would knock Gazprom's profits for a loop, and Syria isn't about to jeopardize its relationship with Russia by allowing that to happen. Qatar wants Assad out of the picture, but Russia will defend its interests.



Afaik there are two alternative routes the pipeline could take. One through Syria and one through Iraq. Russia couldnt do much if it went through Iraq.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? - 5/31/2013 9:08:16 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

The US withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan (where we ought not to have been from the gitgo) shows our waning interest in the Middle East. Surely well known that the American people will not tolerate our open involvement in another ME war. Libya was the last gasp for that game.


quote:

The development of methane hydrate, tar sands guck, and shale oil, and to a lesser extent non-carbon energy sources will lessen the security value of the Middle East to the US. We are already repositioning our forces into the Pacific. We really don't have a dog in that fight. They can fight over their bloody prophets all they like.


I completely agree with you here Vince, except for "we should never have been in Afghanistan" bit,...now if we could only get the people of the Middle East to understand and believe that our interests are no longer completely guided by oil.

I don't believe we are so worried about oil anymore but we are worried about Iran and its allies and of course Israel...thus our continued interest in Syria. I still believe the American people feel the greatest threat to America is the terror war against the US with its main supporter Iran and to a lesser extent Assad's Syria.

That said I believe our interest will not be waning for the foreseeable future but we will not be so willing to sacrifice American lives in direct intervention unless Israel is seriously threatened by any party in the region...and that would include Russia

Butch

I will concede your point on Afghanistan in the beginning but not after Obama was elected. The surge was BS.

As for terrorism, if you read Obama's recent speech he is already wheeling away from the large 'War on Terror' and will fight a small footprint war with drones (like them or not) and special ops under the guide of the DOD. The revised policy seems not to focus on nations but on small groups of killer gangs and home grown activists. I don't think Obama wants to get sucked into a war with Syria or Iran despite what Israel wants. I believe our strategy has changed. I may be wrong. I only play war games on CM since I lost my stars.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? - 5/31/2013 9:23:24 PM   
SpanishMatMaster


Posts: 967
Joined: 9/28/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rogue886


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

Nobody has ever started a war they have no chance in hell to win.


Yes they have, the US did in Vietnam.

Germany declares war on the US and then on the USSR.

_____________________________

Humanist (therefore Atheist), intelligent, cultivated and very humble :)
If I don't answer you, maybe I "hid" you: PM me if you want.
“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, pause and reflect.” (Mark Twain)

(in reply to Rogue886)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? - 6/3/2013 6:54:49 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

It may not be our role to give a "green light" to things around the world, but it seems that we're in a perpetual "yellow light" situation. You know, that moment when the light turns yellow and you have to make that split-second decision whether to speed up and drive through or come to a screeching halt? When the analogy is applied to world affairs, taking the cautious approach might be the wiser course of action.

Well thought out comments, Zonie.

Take a careful look at what has been happening in Iraq these past few months. You might come away with the impression that the sectarian war has already spread.


Indeed, it has spread. Sectarian violence is really nothing new for the Middle East anyway.

quote:


The US withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan (where we ought not to have been from the gitgo) shows our waning interest in the Middle East. Surely well known that the American people will not tolerate our open involvement in another ME war. Libya was the last gasp for that game.


I think there will always be U.S. interest in the Middle East. I wouldn't interpret our withdrawal from those countries as an indication of waning interest. Since the initial objectives of toppling Saddam Hussein's regime and capturing Bin Laden have already been achieved, there's little reason for us to remain in those countries. (Some people think we should have gotten rid of Hussein back in 1991, which would have spared us the necessity of going back in 2003.)

In any case, the U.S. will continue to maintain a military presence in the region, even if not in Iraq or Afghanistan. There's still Qatar, Bahrain, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and other such places where the U.S. will maintain its presence.

The Libyan crisis was likely seen as an opportunity to get rid of an old thorn in our side, who was America's enemy even before Saddam Hussein or Osama Bin Laden became our enemies and when the Afghan rebels were considered our allies against Soviet occupation. I don't think it constitutes our "last gasp" in the region.

quote:


Middle Eastern oil became a major interst to the West when Winston Churchill converted the British navy from coal burning ships to oil burning. Oil has twice the energy density of coal.


Oil was an important commodity during World War II, but my recollection is that Persian Gulf oil was still in a developing stage. There have been other areas of the world with significant oil reserves. The Arabs are/were not the only game in town. That's where I run into trouble accepting the "it's all about oil" position that many people take when explaining our Middle Eastern policies. The world oil supply is not confined to the Middle East or even OPEC. If America has a policy of subverting and/or invading countries for the purpose of taking their resources, we might have tried finding easier places in the world to do that.

We also could have devoted more resources to researching and developing alternative sources of energy. If we had gotten off the dime back in the 1970s when we got the wake-up call (energy crisis), if we put more money into researching solar, wind, and other forms of energy production, we might have been much further along in our development of those technologies by now. To add to that, a lot of people didn't like coal because of the environmental consequences (although coal is still widely used), and nuclear was considered too dangerous (especially after Three Mile Island). So, we're pretty much stuck with burning oil for now.

quote:


The Japanese have long been dependent on foreign oil (see the US oil embargo against them in 1940 or whenever) The Japanese are currently involved in a very strenuous effort to develop technology for extracting methane hydrate as a practical fuel source. Methane hydrate is found along the continental shelves in seeming great abundance. This new fuel source may be the root cause of recent conflicts between Japan and China over Islands in the China Sea.


Could be. There have been renewed efforts at scouring every nook and cranny of the planet for resources. I was reading an article a while back about a company paying some engineer to go traipsing around the mountains of Peru, looking for new places to mine copper. This is going on all over the world, and not just with oil or other energy resources.

There's some outfit out of Canada that wants to open a new mine in southern Arizona, although there's some local resistance due to concerns of environmental damage. If the mine ever does open, most of the copper will end up going to China. I also read about a recent bust of a metal theft ring, which was caught with millions of dollars worth of copper headed for China.

quote:


The development of methane hydrate, tar sands guck, and shale oil, and to a lesser extent non-carbon energy sources will lessen the security value of the Middle East to the US. We are already repositioning our forces into the Pacific. We really don't have a dog in that fight. They can fight over their bloody prophets all they like.

ETA: Forgot to mention the melting of the polar ice and the opening of new fuel exploration there will also contribute to the coming insignificance of the Middle East.


I get your point, although my sense is that there is interest in the Middle East for other reasons, such as religion. The West has always had an interest in the status of the "Holy Land," and that's always been the major complication. If all we wanted was Middle Eastern oil, then it would have been far less complicated than it is now. It's not that we ever really needed the oil to begin with, but we didn't want anyone else getting it either.

The other complication is that much of our Middle East policy was also due to its proximity to the Soviet Union and our Cold War security concerns. Apart from its oil wealth, the Middle East also has significance for its strategic location as the crossroads of three continents. When the eastern trade routes were cut off from Europe in the 15th century, we had to find some way around it, which propelled us into the age of exploration.

I think the Middle East will always be significant to the West, with or without oil being a factor.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? - 6/3/2013 7:34:06 AM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rogue886


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

Nobody has ever started a war they have no chance in hell to win.


Yes they have, the US did in Vietnam.

Germany declares war on the US and then on the USSR.

They could have bombed Vietnam flat. It was a serious option. If Hitler would have listened to his generals you would be speaking german now.
Now give me another example cause these are very poor.

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? - 6/3/2013 9:41:48 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


Posts: 967
Joined: 9/28/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani
Now give me another example cause these are very poor.

No, they could not have bombed Vietnam flat. And even if they could (and not, I insist, they could not, not enough industrial power) this would not have ended the war, only extended it and provoke the take over of the communism even in the USA.

And no, even if Hitler would have heard his generals, we would have lost the war once he started a three-side war with UK, USA and URSS at the same time.

This does not mean that I would not be speaking German now. As a matter of fact, I am indeed speaking German now. I live in Germany.



_____________________________

Humanist (therefore Atheist), intelligent, cultivated and very humble :)
If I don't answer you, maybe I "hid" you: PM me if you want.
“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, pause and reflect.” (Mark Twain)

(in reply to MrBukani)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? - 6/3/2013 10:07:00 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster
This does not mean that I would not be speaking German now. As a matter of fact, I am indeed speaking German now. I live in Germany.


LOL.. priceless.

To the thread in general, much as I despise Obama this is a case where I think he's doing the right thing. I, for one, do not believe the US has the money to go gallivanting across the globe on these sorts of feel good missions even if we all drank the kool-aid and believed our involvement actually had anything to do with human interests. Pretty much I'm sick and tired of deploying our troops and paying for it in blood and money every time some banker wants another yacht. I'm not even sure "oil tycoons" matter that much anymore in the larger scheme of international finance.

So yeah, I hope Obama keeps "dithering" and "doing nothing". Sometimes that's exactly the right move.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? - 6/3/2013 10:24:26 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

provoke the take over of the communism even in the USA


What the hell... we do live in different worlds.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? - 6/3/2013 1:34:54 PM   
SpanishMatMaster


Posts: 967
Joined: 9/28/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
quote:

provoke the take over of the communism even in the USA

What the hell... we do live in different worlds.
Butch
Possibly. In my world, a damage which was literally around 0.001% of the damage described by MrBukani provoked massive civil disorders in the USA. In your world possibly the protests against the war in Vietnam did not even exist.

But is the same world where people should say "fuck Al Qaeda" in the middle of a terrorist camp in Afghanistan, so I guess that we do indeed live in different worlds.

Best regards.

_____________________________

Humanist (therefore Atheist), intelligent, cultivated and very humble :)
If I don't answer you, maybe I "hid" you: PM me if you want.
“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, pause and reflect.” (Mark Twain)

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? - 6/3/2013 4:50:16 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:


Quote: Zonie

Oil was an important commodity during World War II, but my recollection is that Persian Gulf oil was still in a developing stage. There have been other areas of the world with significant oil reserves. The Arabs are/were not the only game in town. That's where I run into trouble accepting the "it's all about oil" position that many people take when explaining our Middle Eastern policies. The world oil supply is not confined to the Middle East or even OPEC. If America has a policy of subverting and/or invading countries for the purpose of taking their resources, we might have tried finding easier places in the world to do that.


The Persian Gulf had long been producing oil by WW2. Englishman William D`Arcy signed a contract with Persia back in 1901. He almost went skint and sold most of his rights to Scottish firm Burmah Oil. After spending a small fortune they were about to give up and sent a telegram to halt exploration. The engineer carried on for a few weeks and then struck oil. This was in 1910-ish.

Ironically this was in response to having to buy all our oil from the Americans or the Dutch, so I would suggest it really is all about oil. If not, its certainly all about money.

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? - 6/3/2013 5:27:35 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

I think there will always be U.S. interest in the Middle East.

Well, you may be right, Zonie. And perhaps I am being too optimistic about new energy resources like methane hydrate. The Japanese are pursuing its production vigorously off their own shores. The US and other nations have start up research programs.

quote:

Oil was an important commodity during World War II, but my recollection is that Persian Gulf oil was still in a developing stage. There have been other areas of the world with significant oil reserves. The Arabs are/were not the only game in town. That's where I run into trouble accepting the "it's all about oil" position that many people take when explaining our Middle Eastern policies. The world oil supply is not confined to the Middle East or even OPEC. If America has a policy of subverting and/or invading countries for the purpose of taking their resources, we might have tried finding easier places in the world to do that.

The top three oil producing countries are Saudi Arabia, Russia, and the United States.[51] About 80 per cent of the world's readily accessible reserves are located in the Middle East, with 62.5 per cent coming from the Arab 5: Saudi Arabia, UAE, Iraq, Qatar and Kuwait. The key words are: accessible reserves. New technology has made tar sands and shale oil/gas more accessible. Methane hydrate is quite promising apparently.

Churchill's decision to convert the fleet to oil burners in 1908 was quite impactful. The availability of oil in the Middle East was always known, however, it did not influence politics or economics until Winston Churchill, prime minister of the United Kingdom, decided to create a new generation of battleships fueled by oil instead of coal in 1908. Actually, he was Lord of the Admiralty at the time. "This decision had a massive impact on geopolitical and economic concerns. With this decision, the success and importance of the newly formed Anglo-Persian Oil Company was guaranteed and the world’s dependence on oil was initiated. Due to relative power considerations, all other battleships were rendered obsolete and so with one swift move, oil became a crucial, yet external resource.[1] The United States later described oil as “a stupendous source of strategic power, and one of the greatest material prizes in world history,” reflecting it’s huge importance.[3]"

The Ottoman Turks were so impressed with the Kaiser and his military/industrial forces they joined on the side of Germany in World War I. Big mistake, as it turned out. It was that decision that led to the current chaos in the region. "But with Germany as an ally, the Ottoman Empire represented a serious threat to the British Empire, so in a pre-emptive strike, London immediately landed an Anglo-Indian force at Basra, near the estuary of the Euphrates and Tigris rivers. This was done to protect the Anglo-Persian oil pipeline, which was vital to the British navy, and to show the Union Jack in this strategically important area in the Persian Gulf."

I am not trying to tutor you here, Zonie. I am exploring this 'new' historical information for myself mainly. So, also from the same source:

"The origin of American economic involvement in the Middle East, particularly with regards to oil, dates back to 1928 with the singing of the Red Line Agreement. This was preceded by the founding of the Turkish Petroleum Company, which was created with the intention of exploring and extracting oil within the Ottoman Empire. Eventually, after the discovery of a large oil field in Iraq in 1928, the issue of distribution arose. Each of the large powers – France, the United Kingdom, and the United States – worried about being edged out by the other two. The Red Line Agreement was eventually signed, giving the Near East Development Corporation, the Anglo-Persian Oil Company, Royal Dutch/Shell, and the Compagnie Française des Pétroles each 23.75% of any oil that was produced by the Turkish Petroleum Company.[4] The Near East Development Corporation represented American interests and included Jersey Standard Oil, Socony-Vacuum Oil Company, Gulf Oil, the Pan-American Petroleum and Transport Company, and Atlantic Refining. The remaining 5% share went to an Armenian businessman, Calouste Gulbenkian, who had previously owned shares within TPC. The more important provision of the Red Line Agreement was that none of the four parties could develop any oilfields from the Suez Canal to the Iran, with the exception of Kuwait (the area that the TPC had jurisdiction over), unless that party gained support and approval from the other three.[4] Thus, the United States broke into the oil market in Iraq and later into the rest of the Middle East. Eventually, due to the aligning of Prime Minister Rashid al-Gilani with Germany, the West, particularly Great Britain, gained open access to Iraq. However, WWII left the UK weakened and unable to retain its dominance in the region, and as such the Truman and Roosevelt administrations were able to achieve their top priority, monopolizing oil in the region.[5]"

The article goes on to briefly relate the history of our involvement in the development of oil in Iran and Saudi Arabia. It is all pretty interesting and makes a strong historical case for the importance of oil as the central issue of our mucking about in the ME.

In Iran for example: "Eventually, this conflict over oil revenues led to the full nationalization of oil by Prime Minister Mosaddeq in 1951.[7] This resulted in the Iranian coupe of 1953 in which the American CIA and British MI6 performed a joint operation overthrowing the democratically elected Mosaddeq in what is known as Operation Ajax.[8]"

In Saudi Arabia: "Perhaps one of the most significant moments in American economic involvement in the Middle East came in 1933 with Ibn Saud, founder and king of the new Saudi Arabian kingdom awarded concessions to the American company, Standard Oil of California. While the British had been the main western power involved in the Middle East up until this point, this momentous decision signified the main turning point in American relations with Saudi Arabia and later with more Middle Eastern nations. Standard Oil of California ended up becoming the Arabian-American Oil Company (ARAMCO) after it merged with Texaco and Socony.[1] Thus, the interests of the United States were intertwined with the interests of the Saudi Arabian monarchy."

quote:

We also could have devoted more resources to researching and developing alternative sources of energy. If we had gotten off the dime back in the 1970s when we got the wake-up call (energy crisis), if we put more money into researching solar, wind, and other forms of energy production, we might have been much further along in our development of those technologies by now. To add to that, a lot of people didn't like coal because of the environmental consequences (although coal is still widely used), and nuclear was considered too dangerous (especially after Three Mile Island). So, we're pretty much stuck with burning oil for now.

That may be so but these alternate sources do not have the energy density of petroleum and as more carbon energy reserves are found the price will remain low and the low price will act as a barrier to development of alternate energy.

quote:

The other complication is that much of our Middle East policy was also due to its proximity to the Soviet Union and our Cold War security concerns. Apart from its oil wealth, the Middle East also has significance for its strategic location as the crossroads of three continents. When the eastern trade routes were cut off from Europe in the 15th century, we had to find some way around it, which propelled us into the age of exploration.

The geopolitics of pipelines and transport are certainly worth considering. More important than the relgious issues I think, but I never ignore religion as a motivational force in human behavior.

quote:

I think the Middle East will always be significant to the West, with or without oil being a factor.

Maybe so. However, it is difficult to imagine while we are immersed in the news and history evolving everyday that things will someday be different. Current events make it difficult to sort out future alternatives. We like to stick with the familiar. Much more comfortable that way but that comfort leads us into fallacious reasoning. Things change even if we cannot imagine them doing so. We shall see. Well, those who are around then will see the future. Again, apologies if I laid out too much information above.




< Message edited by vincentML -- 6/3/2013 5:49:49 PM >

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? - 6/3/2013 9:30:51 PM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
I am not trying to tutor you here, Zonie. I am exploring this 'new' historical information for myself mainly. So, also from the same source:


It's all interesting information. I'll admit my recollection is somewhat hazy, but I do remember seeing a map with some figures indicating that we actually exported oil to Saudi Arabia during World War II, because their oil producing facilities were not yet fully developed and not producing enough. I couldn't find much data on Middle Eastern oil production during WW2, except for a post from Axis History Forum that based its figures on an Italian reference source (I'll admit that's not much of a source, although Google was leading me into oblivion):

quote:

The oil production of Middle East was not exceptional, but would have been of great help for the Axis (that was mostly based on Rumanian oil: 7,153,000 t in 1937 and 6,603,000 in 1938). Instead for the Allies it was pretty irrilevant (USA oil production of 1937: 172,866,000 t).
This was the oil production in metric tons of Middle East countries in 1937, 1938 and 1946:
Iran: 10,331,000 10,359,000 19,189,000
Iraq: 4,255,000 4,272,000 4,476,000
Bahrein: 1,062,000 n.a. n.a.
Kuwait: oil has been found by an American company, but production had not yet started in 1939. Production of 1946: 800,000 t.
Saudi Arabia: first drillings in the Hasa region; a port was under construction in 1939 in Ras Tanura (N-W of Bahrein) for the transport of the oil production of Hasa. Probable presence of oil in the Red Sea in front of Tihama (in Asir), islands Farsan, El Daba and Hueigh (both in Hejaz). Production of 1946: 8,200,000 t.
Qatar: none.
Oman: none.
Coast of Pirates (United Arab Emirates): none.
Syria and Lebanon: none.
Palestina: none.
Transjordania: none.
(sources: "Calendario Atlante De Agostini. 1940 XVIII" and "Calendario Atlante De Agostini. XX Secolo")


I'm not sure of the figures, but even if they're doubtful, it seems that the USA was outproducing the entire Middle East many times over. Whatever the Middle East was producing was just a drop in the bucket.

quote:


quote:

We also could have devoted more resources to researching and developing alternative sources of energy. If we had gotten off the dime back in the 1970s when we got the wake-up call (energy crisis), if we put more money into researching solar, wind, and other forms of energy production, we might have been much further along in our development of those technologies by now. To add to that, a lot of people didn't like coal because of the environmental consequences (although coal is still widely used), and nuclear was considered too dangerous (especially after Three Mile Island). So, we're pretty much stuck with burning oil for now.


That may be so but these alternate sources do not have the energy density of petroleum and as more carbon energy reserves are found the price will remain low and the low price will act as a barrier to development of alternate energy.


I guess it all depends on how much oil there actually is under the ground and how far we're willing to go to extract it. Then there's the consequence of burning more carbon into the atmosphere. The demand will also get higher, especially as population giants like China and India want a better standard of living for their people - more cars, more energy, more luxuries - just like the West has enjoyed all these years.

I'm not saying that isn't a factor in our Middle Eastern policies, but it's not the only factor.

quote:


quote:

The other complication is that much of our Middle East policy was also due to its proximity to the Soviet Union and our Cold War security concerns. Apart from its oil wealth, the Middle East also has significance for its strategic location as the crossroads of three continents. When the eastern trade routes were cut off from Europe in the 15th century, we had to find some way around it, which propelled us into the age of exploration.

The geopolitics of pipelines and transport are certainly worth considering. More important than the relgious issues I think, but I never ignore religion as a motivational force in human behavior.


I never ignore it when thinking about the Middle East. We had been sending religious crusaders over there centuries before oil became a factor in world politics. Of course, they sent their own crusaders, too. A great deal of our mythology and religious folklore comes from that area of the world. The "Holy Land" has been a controversial piece of real estate for quite some time.

And again, just the location is also a factor, with or without oil being there.




(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? - 6/4/2013 1:38:01 AM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani
Now give me another example cause these are very poor.

No, they could not have bombed Vietnam flat. And even if they could (and not, I insist, they could not, not enough industrial power) this would not have ended the war, only extended it and provoke the take over of the communism even in the USA.

And no, even if Hitler would have heard his generals, we would have lost the war once he started a three-side war with UK, USA and URSS at the same time.

This does not mean that I would not be speaking German now. As a matter of fact, I am indeed speaking German now. I live in Germany.



Not enough industrial power? Yeah you're so right...
If Hitler would have listened there would not have been 3 fronts.
So you can manipulate your own feeble reality but not the absolute.
That's why a lot of what you claim is false in plain words.
That's what politicians do, maybe you're a spindoctor.
Keep spinning and when you stop, your head will be spinning for a while. Just hold on to something solid and maybe your spinning will stop.

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? - 6/4/2013 1:54:56 AM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline
The whole middle east is going through a purge cause they realize themselves they have no real freedom. Good for them. Maybe they will evolve again into rational beings. Little hard within the concept of true Islam, but what the hell, it's all good. Once people have any real freedom the abrahamic books tend to get less popular anyway.

The only thing that concerns me is that they won't destroy the Krak de Chevaliers.
For the rest it's a civil war so let them civilize themselves.

(in reply to MrBukani)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? - 6/4/2013 5:18:42 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


Posts: 967
Joined: 9/28/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani
Not enough industrial power? Yeah you're so right...
Yes, I know.
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani
If Hitler would have listened there would not have been 3 fronts.
And that's why I give the real example of what really happened as a strong example of countries declaring a war they could not win, which was the point as you do not seem to remember.

Just for the record because that one was also priceless:
MrB: Nobody has ever started a war they have no chance in hell to win.
SMM: ... Germany declares war on the US and then on the USSR.
MrB: If Hitler would have listened to his generals you would be speaking german now. Now give me another example cause these are very poor.
SMM: If Hitler would have heard his generals, we would have lost the war {anyway} once he started a three-side war with UK, USA and URSS at the same time
MrB: If Hitler would have listened there would not have been 3 fronts.
SMM: Thank you for making my point for me


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani
So you can manipulate your own feeble reality but not the absolute.
Good advice. Follow it.
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani
That's why a lot of what you claim is false in plain words.
Ditto.
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani
That's what politicians do, maybe you're a spindoctor.
No more arguments, yes?
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani
Keep spinning and when you stop, your head will be spinning for a while. Just hold on to something solid and maybe your spinning will stop.
... no, no more arguments.

Ok then, Mr. Bukani, you got owned, missed the point and started to babble attacks without sense. I think I had enough, goodbye, hidden.

Next...?


< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 6/4/2013 5:31:28 AM >


_____________________________

Humanist (therefore Atheist), intelligent, cultivated and very humble :)
If I don't answer you, maybe I "hid" you: PM me if you want.
“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, pause and reflect.” (Mark Twain)

(in reply to MrBukani)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? - 6/4/2013 5:25:03 AM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
Honestly, did the cold war really end?

I mean even after the fall of the Soviet Union, our nukes are still aimed at Russian targets and their nukes are aimed at American targets.

And with former KGB hardliners running Russia.....

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? - 6/4/2013 5:31:03 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


Posts: 967
Joined: 9/28/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
I mean even after the fall of the Soviet Union, our nukes are still aimed at Russian targets and their nukes are aimed at American targets.
Can you confirm this with some sources, please?
My impression is that the nukes are not aimed to anybody in particular, with configurable possibilities to reach many different targets. But I would love to read more about it.
On the former... no, the Cold War ended the moment I could take a coffee without having to ask myself if the rockets were flying already. I remember that feeling. That finished.
The current world is multipolar, with much more arguments as MAD to enforce collaboration between the USA and Russia.
Best regards.

_____________________________

Humanist (therefore Atheist), intelligent, cultivated and very humble :)
If I don't answer you, maybe I "hid" you: PM me if you want.
“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, pause and reflect.” (Mark Twain)

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? - 6/4/2013 7:29:39 AM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Is there any way out of the quagmire before it ignites the entire region?


I think we'd need a time machine for that.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 60
Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.109