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RE: NSA Prism program - 6/7/2013 4:15:37 PM

tj444

Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

I'll try to ask about this. I'm still trying to setup some more secure communication links to ask these questions more easily but with any luck I can get some solid info on prism.

Insofar as benefits... are you kidding? The benefits of "total surveillance" for the state are incalculable. Total surveillance equates to total control.

There is zero (or near zero) chance this was done without the corporations' knowledge. What makes you think that's how it happened?

It`s not total surveillance, the only calls/emails that get looked at are ones containing key words. If you`re not doing crimes, there`s no need to be worried.....those that are worried about what they say, maybe should be.

I`m still trying to figure out why this is news.

This is old news.

I think you are thinking of Carnivoire which has been replaced by a more powerful software NarusInsight..

if you are targeted by the govt then under PRISM they can get everything.. email, video and voice chat, videos, photos, voice over IP conversations, file transfers, login notifications and social networking details.. Considering that the govt considered OWS & participants to be "terrorists", that could include some of our posters here on CM too.. but yeah, from you post, you too consider free speech to be a "crime"..

"According to a year 2007 company press release, the latest version of NarusInsight Intercept Suite (NIS) is "the industry's only network traffic intelligence system that supports real-time precision targeting, capturing and reconstruction of webmail traffic... including Google Gmail, MSN Hotmail and Yahoo! Mail".[11] However, currently most webmail traffic can be HTTPS encrypted, so the content of messages can only be monitored with the consent of service providers.
It can also perform semantic analysis of the same traffic as it is happening, in other words analyze the content, meaning, structure and significance of traffic in real time. The exact use of this data is not fully documented, as the public is not authorized to see what types of activities and ideas are being monitored."[/i]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NarusInsight

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 21

RE: NSA Prism program - 6/7/2013 4:28:45 PM

cloudboy

Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline

On NPR the benefit was explained thus: Having the database in place allows law enforcement to use it when necessary (say after the Boston bombing.) Law enforcement does not want to build the haystack after a crime has been committed, it wants to screen the haystack for clues to ID suspects.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 22

RE: NSA Prism program - 6/7/2013 4:31:21 PM

Politesub53

Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

but yeah, from you post, you too consider free speech to be a "crime"..

Who knows how you managed to construe this from Owners post.

He is right, there is nothing new going on here.

(in reply to tj444)

Post #: 23

RE: NSA Prism program - 6/7/2013 5:12:51 PM

tj444

Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

but yeah, from you post, you too consider free speech to be a "crime"..

Who knows how you managed to construe this from Owners post.

He is right, there is nothing new going on here.

its not me that considers free speech a crime, its the US govt that has called people that use their free speech rights to be terrorists.. do you understand why the govt refers to OWSers and food activists as terrorists? to put a freeze on free speech & opposition to them, 1%ers & Big Biz.. why else? the govt is the one lumping activists exercising their right to free speech in with those real terrorists of 9/11 and the Boston bombings, etc to justify the same surveillance tactics.. If Americans trusted their govt & the govt was actually worth trusting, then it would not be news.. but obviously lotsa people just dont trust the US govt..

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to Politesub53)

Post #: 24

RE: NSA Prism program - 6/7/2013 5:34:12 PM

Politesub53

Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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I was talking about your remark to Owner. My post was clear enough.

(in reply to tj444)

Post #: 25

RE: NSA Prism program - 6/7/2013 5:52:14 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Thats sorta something else I am questioning, how do they filter all that information to find what they are looking for? Thats a lot of stuff.

Thanks to the ever increasing demand for high power computers in our lives, and extensive subsidized research into supercomputing clusters built from commodity hardware, the economies of scale work out such that it's fairly trivial to cover all the interesting information. For instance, consider that a decade ago, Google's hardware used 700 megawatts of power, close to the total output of an A1000 nuclear reactor, or that a modern PS3 gaming console has more computer power than the supercomputing labs of yesteryear, and that most modern mobile phones have more computer power than your first PC did.

As others have said, there's nothing new here. You may find U.S. Patent #5,937,422 of interest in documenting how old such things are. Such data mining can be used to extract a lot of useful and interesting information, and is approaching the level of sophistication where it will soon be possible to feed this information directly into the Disposition Matrix, at which point the whole operation can be streamlined from probabilistic detection to probabilistic extrajudicial killing, though presumably it's going to take a while before the process is automated and the operator becomes redundant.

Cost effective elimination of potential threats to public interests, in short.

Except, despite having had this level of information since long before 9/11, we haven't gotten any safer, have we?

IWYW,
— Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 26

RE: NSA Prism program - 6/7/2013 6:39:26 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

I'll try to ask about this. I'm still trying to setup some more secure communication links to ask these questions more easily but with any luck I can get some solid info on prism.

Insofar as benefits... are you kidding? The benefits of "total surveillance" for the state are incalculable. Total surveillance equates to total control.

There is zero (or near zero) chance this was done without the corporations' knowledge. What makes you think that's how it happened?

Because that is their story.

As evidenced by....

quote:

Im having trouble with that. I can see smaller companies not knowing. But the giants.... they hire people to look for these back doors. Some have been around since 2007.. and their guys didnt find them???

What makes you think I buy their story?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 27

RE: NSA Prism program - 6/7/2013 6:44:06 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

I'll try to ask about this. I'm still trying to setup some more secure communication links to ask these questions more easily but with any luck I can get some solid info on prism.

Of course, having posted this on a forum, Jeff, you've pretty much guaranteed that any communication channels you set up from here on will be about as secure as a flashing billboard.

Your best bet was security by obscurity, and you've blown that now. I've seen you refer to your tin-foil hat in other posts, but I'm thinking you used the cheap store brand, because you aren't anywhere near paranoid enough.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 28

RE: NSA Prism program - 6/7/2013 6:47:21 PM

tj444

Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

I was talking about your remark to Owner. My post was clear enough.

cuz he stated "there`s no need to be worried.....those that are worried about what they say, maybe should be. " I think there is a whole lot to be worried about.. the govt considers peoples right to assemble, to associate, to free speech (as OWS did & other activists did) to be a "crime" then he Owner is in essence agreeing with the govt that it is.. & that OWSers, etc should be worried..

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to Politesub53)

Post #: 29

RE: NSA Prism program - 6/7/2013 6:54:32 PM

Aylee

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Joined: 10/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I wanna see the presentation. Maybe then I would have a clearer understanding of how they are mining for information. Imagine all those applications... the hours it would take on facebook alone to pan for information (like gold). Its a massive undertaking.

A little excerpt from a short story. . .

quote:

“I just thought of an absolutely terrific conspiracy! What if we alter one premise? What if technology companies really aren’t in competition with one another- we just think they are. Or maybe they are, but it’s like a friendly inter-office softball league kind of competition. What if all of these guys are specialists working on different aspects of a single system? They could run the project the same way they design weapons systems or space shuttles- everything gets split into departments so the right hand literally doesn’t know what the left hand is doing.”
“To what end?” After all, this was the nub on which every conspiracy was centered. If you weren’t conspiring to achieve something- why would you do it?
“Well, let’s look at the components individually. We can start with Facebook. From them you get personal details. They know who your friends are, who your family is, where you went to school, where you work, where you’ve been on vacation and in many cases, where you live. It uses an email with your login- so they have that too. Then there’s the information your friends enter- you can’t even control that stuff.”
“Don’t forget about the quizzes.” I said.
“Psychological profiling!”
“Exactly.”
“You think you’re taking a silly IQ test- but in reality- you’re giving them intelligence diagnostics on literally millions of their users. And then there’s all those ‘what X would you be?’ like what animal are you- what Led Zepplin song are you- that kind of stuff. A lot of those questions are stock standard psych profiling questions.”
“And its not just the quizzes, even the games- Mafia Wars- the Farm game- you can learn a lot about how a person sees the world by how they run their virtual farm. Are they ambitious? Do they spend their time trying to make the farm run well- or do they concentrate on making it look nice? There are a million different flavors- an infinite number of ways to get at the data.”
“Okay, so via Facebook, they can identify your friends and family, know what you look like, where your email is and differing degrees of psychological info- among other flotsam and jetsam. That’s a lot for one company. Now, let’s say we have the telecomm companies as part of this. All cell phones have GPS now. We can stop there, with that single feature. If the phone is on- they can know exactly where you are- all of the time.”
“So they know all about you- and where you are. Check. Oh, and they know everyone you’ve talked to and how long you talked.”
“They can probably find out where the person you were talking to is as well.”
“You could do an awful lot with just that. But let’s add Google, since our friend Eric started this whole ball rolling.”
“They have the satellites. They own the email. They have every single page of the internet indexed- which means they have every photo, every audio file, everything- all at their fingertips. They also have the facial recognition software- the voice recognition software. Google knows what bank you use and if you use their browser- they know most of your passwords. And none of it is secret- we literally ask them to store our passwords. We must be insane.”
So with the data sitting on the servers of Facebook, Google, and the major cell carriers, we could effectively dismantle a person’s life. We could easily track a person’s movements in physical space, drain bank accounts, read email, and on and on.”
Even at its most benign- they could use the data to blackmail- or even just intimidate witnesses in trials- all sorts of stuff.”
“And no one really thinks about it. We see things in our media- in our stories- but then we still click the accept button.”

How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love My Digital Overlords ~ William Hrdina

You can read it for free at smash words. But. . . it does answer your question.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 30

RE: NSA Prism program - 6/7/2013 7:22:35 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

A little excerpt from a short story. . .

How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love My Digital Overlords ~ William Hrdina

You can read it for free at smash words. But. . . it does answer your question.

Good snipping, Aylee, and thanks.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Aylee)

Post #: 31

RE: NSA Prism program - 6/7/2013 7:24:28 PM

tj444

Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Im having trouble with that. I can see smaller companies not knowing. But the giants.... they hire people to look for these back doors. Some have been around since 2007.. and their guys didnt find them???

more info and a possible explanation of why the fbi needed to go to court to force google & other internet companies to turn over docs.. it sounds like the govt has access at the hubs which catches about 80% and the rest they use PRISM & warrants, the courts to get..

"The answer, says 30-year NSA veteran turned whistleblower William Binney, is simple: Since at least 2001, the US government has had access to all the internet communication passing through at least one and possibly more fiber-optic hubs in the US. That would give the NSA access to a vast amount of data without “direct access” to company servers.

This doesn’t necessarily mean that something more sinister doesn’t exist, says Binney; the NSA might have more than just peripheral access to some internet companies. Assuming that the NSA’s detection systems are placed only on major hubs for internet communication, as the one discovered in 2005 was, the NSA might be missing internet traffic that doesn’t travel through these hubs. So PRISM, hypothesizes Binney, might have been initiated in order to capture internet communications the NSA was not able to record already. (If such a system tapped directly into company servers, though, it would contradict Brin’s statement today.)

“I figure they could get 80% on what’s on the network and the other 20%, the companies [like Google and Facebook] have to fill in,” says Binney, who adds that these numbers are “just my estimate” based on what’s known about how much traffic flows through the Internet’s busiest hubs."
http://qz.com/92369

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 32

RE: NSA Prism program - 6/7/2013 7:34:21 PM

njlauren

Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
Status: offline

I am upset about this, not because the NSA has the data per se, but that there are no checks and balances over it. It is true in the digital domain there is no privacy, but this takes it one step further because now all this data is in one place. The actual NSA system if I understand it correctly is doing a domain search looking for patterns, they aren't focusing on any one person or traffic from one person, but patterns, and using that to narrow down to find suspicious things (I agree with another poster, from what I know of this kind of thing, it is probably unlikely to actually come up with much information in advance). For its intended use, I am not totally against it, even though I suspect it is a fools errand.

What bothers me, though, is that this data can also be used to target people specifically, to literally give a profile of an individual person (mind you, accused of nothing), and show pretty much who they are, what they do, etc, and that is where the abuse is. When Patriot Act that authorized this kind of shit, and warrantless wiretaps, the Bush administration justice department, for example, tried to argue that if evidence of illegal (but not terrorist) activity came to light through wiretaps and so forth, that the evidence taken there should be allowed in court (fortunately, both lawmakers and courts said no fucking way, because it violated the whole point of getting search warrants, the whole point of them was to stop fishing like this, ad require you to have proof, first). If searching for a terrorist and you find a tax cheat, there isn't the urgency to report that, and in doing so violates the constitution protections against broad searches.

Something like this can be used for that, and unfortunately, probably will be. Who is there to guarantee only Prism can use this? I have to laugh at the GOP members who are outraged, because their party championed the Patriot Acts along with Democrats, and now they are outraged? This can be used to silence political opponents, and God help us if we get some bible thumper like Bush back in there, if you think the IRS thing is outrageous, how would you like the Jesus freaks looking over your shoulder? Or some whacked out feminist type out to get rid of porn and so forth?

My concern is that this has been allowed to go on with no safeguards against it being used other than for its intended business. And in light of the IRS mess, in light of the AG hacking into reporters e-mails to find leaks, it doesn't sit well, and yes, I am pissed off at Obama, as much or even more than I was at Bush and his administration of freaks like Dick Cheney and Alberto Gonzalez and the like. Obama was a constitutional law teacher, and he can't see the problems with this? Saying "Trust us" is idiotic, when whether it is his administration or his predecessor, both have shown the lengths they will go to circumvent the law.

(in reply to Aylee)

Post #: 33

RE: NSA Prism program - 6/7/2013 8:08:53 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

I'll try to ask about this. I'm still trying to setup some more secure communication links to ask these questions more easily but with any luck I can get some solid info on prism.

Insofar as benefits... are you kidding? The benefits of "total surveillance" for the state are incalculable. Total surveillance equates to total control.

There is zero (or near zero) chance this was done without the corporations' knowledge. What makes you think that's how it happened?

It`s not total surveillance, the only calls/emails that get looked at are ones containing key words. If you`re not doing crimes, there`s no need to be worried.....those that are worried about what they say, maybe should be.

I`m still trying to figure out why this is news.

This is old news.

I think you are thinking of Carnivoire which has been replaced by a more powerful software NarusInsight..

if you are targeted by the govt then under PRISM they can get everything.. email, video and voice chat, videos, photos, voice over IP conversations, file transfers, login notifications and social networking details.. Considering that the govt considered OWS & participants to be "terrorists", that could include some of our posters here on CM too.. but yeah, from you post, you too consider free speech to be a "crime"..

"According to a year 2007 company press release, the latest version of NarusInsight Intercept Suite (NIS) is "the industry's only network traffic intelligence system that supports real-time precision targeting, capturing and reconstruction of webmail traffic... including Google Gmail, MSN Hotmail and Yahoo! Mail".[11] However, currently most webmail traffic can be HTTPS encrypted, so the content of messages can only be monitored with the consent of service providers.
It can also perform semantic analysis of the same traffic as it is happening, in other words analyze the content, meaning, structure and significance of traffic in real time. The exact use of this data is not fully documented, as the public is not authorized to see what types of activities and ideas are being monitored."[/i]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NarusInsight

My point is,they are not listening to everyone`s phone calls.

This is not the stasi.We don`t have the man power or ability to listen to every call.

They are searching for key words and checking in on what might be a problem.

Not dong crimes?

Nothing to worry about.

This is law enforcement doing it`s job.

Again,all this is not news.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 6/7/2013 8:11:21 PM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to tj444)

Post #: 34

RE: NSA Prism program - 6/7/2013 8:34:15 PM

doggieboi8705

Posts: 3
Joined: 8/6/2010
Status: offline

quote:

Not dong crimes?

Nothing to worry about.

Yeah...why wouldn't I trust random strangers with the intimate details of my life? Such as who I'm meeting, where I'm meeting them, what I'm planning to do with them...not to mention those sexy fun pictures I had taken being exchanged between me and the person who took them.

The government would NEVER do anything nefarious with stuff like that. I mean, they're so morally upstanding they're fucking monitoring all your e-mails without your consent! Yup, those sound like trustworthy people to me!

What really pisses me off is that I'm not even American and my shit may be monitored now for whatever half-assed reason they can come up with. If the NSA wants to monitor the fuck outta its own people, by all means, that's between them and you 'muricans. I, however, am a Canadian living in Canada. As far as I'm concerned, this NSA nonsense is the equivalent of a random stranger I don't recognize coming in and watching me go about my business without my consent (mind you, Harper would probably gladly roll over for the NSA and allow them to monitor all Canadian if they bothered to ask). That's completely unacceptable.

Get your shit together guys.

< Message edited by doggieboi8705 -- 6/7/2013 8:35:32 PM >

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 35

RE: NSA Prism program - 6/7/2013 8:44:28 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

Why would they care? Not being snarky... but I would not assume they would care who I am meeting to fuck some night... unless they had terrorist ties.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to doggieboi8705)

Post #: 36

RE: NSA Prism program - 6/7/2013 8:45:29 PM

DaddySatyr

Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline

This seems Apropos (and I got it from HuffPoo)

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 6/7/2013 8:46:15 PM >

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A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

(in reply to doggieboi8705)

Post #: 37

RE: NSA Prism program - 6/7/2013 9:18:51 PM

doggieboi8705

Posts: 3
Joined: 8/6/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
]quote]Why would they care? Not being snarky... but I would not assume they would care who I am meeting to fuck some night... unless they had terrorist ties.

As I understand American law, the definition of a terrorist is so absurdly lax that nearly anyone can be considered a terrorist. So for starters, that's mildly concerning.

Second, I have some comparatively radical political views. I am an Anarchist...not one of those riot in the street Anarchists, but an Anarchist nonetheless (long story short, I think Anarchism is the inevitable end of government). With the lax enough definition of terrorist, that can be sufficient cause for them to actively monitor my shit -- not just passively.

Third, I have no faith in the moral standing of your government. I highly doubt that the information they took is going to just 'poof' away into cyberspace. There will be a file, somewhere, of all the shit they took.So they can use it as 'evidence' later in any legal case they might care to bring up. Not to mention the whole potential blackmail element.

All in the name of your national security.

Again, if you guys wanna roll over and live in the land of Big Brother (you knew it was coming eventually -.-) by all means. It is your country, run it how you like. Just don't drag the rest of us along with you.

Addendum to the third point: Also! Your security agencies get hacked on a regular basis by hacker groups like Anonymous. Even if I were to take leave of my senses and trust the NSA with my personal information; how long will it be before we hear that they got hacked by Anonymous, all the data was stolen, and now Anonymous can troll the entire world 'for the lulz.'

< Message edited by doggieboi8705 -- 6/7/2013 9:24:49 PM >

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 38

RE: NSA Prism program - 6/7/2013 9:21:44 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

I have every faith that the powers that be could care less what we are doing in our kinky little minds... or our bedrooms... unless they can find a way to take political power from our acts.

Hell, they want to film? You wont make much money.

Blackmail me? pft... I dont own much, go for it.

Silence me? as if.. lol.. im rather vocal.

In other words... they could care less about our kinky games.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to doggieboi8705)

Post #: 39

RE: NSA Prism program - 6/7/2013 9:23:13 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

" Such as who I'm meeting, where I'm meeting them, what I'm planning to do with them"

Oh yeah....that major intel right there....

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to doggieboi8705)

Post #: 40

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