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RE: NSA Prism program - 6/7/2013 9:27:50 PM   
doggieboi8705


Posts: 3
Joined: 8/6/2010
Status: offline 		My God...this is the country that was founded on the revolutionary idea of freedom and democracy?

Lul.

I'm done. I voiced my issues and y'all can do what you like with them.

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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: NSA Prism program - 6/7/2013 9:29:49 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		LOL

No, its a society that doesnt believe we are more important than what we are. Unlike the 20 something generation, for the most part.

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RE: NSA Prism program - 6/7/2013 9:38:57 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		When the lunatic fringe agrees with the lefties........it`s game over....







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RE: NSA Prism program - 6/7/2013 11:57:53 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Of course, having posted this on a forum, Jeff, you've pretty much guaranteed that any communication channels you set up from here on will be about as secure as a flashing billboard.

Your best bet was security by obscurity, and you've blown that now. I've seen you refer to your tin-foil hat in other posts, but I'm thinking you used the cheap store brand, because you aren't anywhere near paranoid enough.

*laughs* OK, but how about you leave the data security to us pro's, eh? Unless, that is, you have sat on ANSI security working committees. Otherwise, I'm pretty comfortable that I can, in fact, setup such a channel... in quite a few different ways actually. Nor is it particularly difficult.

By the way, the standard line among data security professionals is "Security through obscurity is not" I think I'll stick with the tried and true mathematical approaches.

The fact that some people are OK even with this is rather astonishing. I'm assuming the same folks who are OK with this will be perfectly good being implanted with RFID tags... you know... for our safety in case we get lost. Honestly, if you aren't OK with walking around with a camera recording your every single move then you should not be OK with this. The amount of your life that can be reconstructed with all this data would be... uh... HIGHLY detailed.

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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: NSA Prism program - 6/8/2013 1:01:17 AM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

*laughs* OK, but how about you leave the data security to us pro's, eh?



Sure thing, Jeff. Have fun.

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That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: NSA Prism program - 6/8/2013 10:52:52 AM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		We`ll leave the paranoia, fear-mongering, infantile cry-baby-act and impotent false attacks to the President`s critics.....they`ve got the skill set after all.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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RE: NSA Prism program - 6/8/2013 11:04:24 AM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
We`ll leave the paranoia, fear-mongering, infantile cry-baby-act and impotent false attacks to the President`s critics.....they`ve got the skill set after all.

Fair enough. It's probably best to leave the conspiracy theories to those inclined to do so. But we weren't really discussing a conspiracy theory, were we? We were discussing a pragmatic data security issue. Specifically, for the slow kids in the class, that discussion was:

Is it possible to setup a secure communication channel over the internet after you are already on the government's radar?

The answer is yes.
Does that get you off their radar? No.
Does it eliminate anything they already know about you? No.
Does it mean I can converse privately with people I choose to without fear of further eavesdropping? Yes.

Now... insofar as the political agenda... Even if I am fine with the government literally knowing every single thing I do every day there's still this question of whether that's how I want my tax dollars being spent. You know.. schools, roads, infrastructure, paying down the debt, helping struggling homeowners, dealing with food insecurity and poverty... all those good liberal things all us liberals like to talk about. You remember them right? Billions and billions of dollars are being spent to spy on the American public. Is that really how you'd spend the tax dollars if you were president?


< Message edited by JeffBC -- 6/8/2013 11:05:59 AM >

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: NSA Prism program - 6/8/2013 11:47:51 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

We`ll leave the paranoia, fear-mongering, infantile cry-baby-act and impotent false attacks to the President`s critics.....they`ve got the skill set after all.

If there is nothing to fear from your govt, then why have they been lying to their citizens for years when asked about this very thing? they (meaning both Obama and Bush before him) have both denied having access & storing all this online info.. If it really is so harmless and used for only the noblest of purposes, they why the denials and lies? See, when someone lies to you, you tend to wonder why they felt the need to lie, and you wonder, what else are they lying about? If a company you wanted to do business with lied to you like this, about something pretty important to you, when they found out they lied would you continue to believe them and do business with them? You know the saying.. fool me once.. etc etc

As far as terrorists go, I dont believe OBL used the internet or email cuz of this sorta thing.. which is one reason why he was so hard to catch.. I somehow doubt the serious & most dangerous terrorists do either.. which makes this massive online dragnet's claimed purpose questionable..

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RE: NSA Prism program - 6/8/2013 12:01:05 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
As far as terrorists go, I dont believe OBL used the internet or email cuz of this sorta thing.. which is one reason why he was so hard to catch.. I somehow doubt the serious & most dangerous terrorists do either.. which makes this massive online dragnet's claimed purpose questionable..

Some of us were actually involved in the whole clipper chip boondoggle. For those of you who don't know, the government wanted to put a chip in every cell phone enabling them to eavesdrop on communications. Many of us in the room asked the NSA guys, "So out of curiosity, these columbian drug lords and whatnot.... do you think they are all stupid?"

Now, to this thread. If I can secure my communications relatively quickly, easily, and painlessly with freely available software which I can personally inspect line by line to ensure no back doors or other malware pre-inserted by Uncle Sam then why can't the bad guys?



_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: NSA Prism program - 6/8/2013 2:37:10 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

Is it possible to setup a secure communication channel over the internet after you are already on the government's radar?

The answer is yes.
Does that get you off their radar? No.
Does it eliminate anything they already know about you? No.
Does it mean I can converse privately with people I choose to without fear of further eavesdropping? Yes.




And like I said, Jeff, have fun with that. I'm all in favor of keeping lots of nonsense in the ether for them to chase. Hell, until we dumped the landline, I liked asking telemarketers if they had gotten the plutonium, just so some government employee could be as annoyed by their calls as I was, after that phrase got caught in a filter somewhere.

The question I'm interested in, regarding the surveillance state, is not about how we do the little technology dance to resist it today, but how we preserve individual liberty in a world where such technology exists.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: NSA Prism program - 6/8/2013 4:15:24 PM   
JeffBC


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From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
The question I'm interested in, regarding the surveillance state, is not about how we do the little technology dance to resist it today, but how we preserve individual liberty in a world where such technology exists.

Heh... my cynical answer? Guns. In truth that is exactly the split you see on the gun debate. You have the pro-gun folks who see a world of personal responsibility and liberty and you have the anti-gun folks who want to be kept safe by some third party which is hopefully trustworthy. Of course, when you give all the guns to that 3rd party you have also given them all the power. This is the exact same debate.

The truth is that we cannot stop the advance of technology. We must decide for ourselves how it is to be used. You have the group of people who would merrily enslave themselves and everyone around them in order to be "safe". Then there are the folks who will resist that and find freedom to be worth human lives because yes, in the absence of all this safety some bad things will slip through the nets and there'll be price tags -- price tags measured in human blood. Right now, the safety-first folks are definitely sweeping the field. The side of individual liberty is losing. The only way to win this battle is on the field of public opinion.

Then, of course, there is the matter of knowledge. Consider this thread. Let's assume for a moment that I am not lying. I have substantial experience in data security (I am not CISSP certified) and a set of connections that ranges into the upper echelons of internet backbone providers and phone companies and the like. I have sat on ANSI security committees and been project lead for incredibly high-end data security projects for the US Govt. In other words, I'm expert -- at least relative to anyone on this thread. I know this tech. I know what can be done with it. But people like Vincent don't care. He might well cede all those credentials to me and all that knowledge and still say "so what?" It's like going to the doctor and him telling you that you have cancer and saying, "What do you know?" I don't really know what to do about that. I guess you die of cancer.

The whole thing is reminiscent of the climate debacle. All the experts say one thing and the lay crowd says, "What do you know?" So bad things are happening. Same deal here. The experts in the relevant fields are (and have been for a long time) very, very concerned. But Obama or whatever president du-jour we have puts on his big sappy smile and nobody cares what the people who actually invented and built this technology think.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: NSA Prism program - 6/8/2013 4:59:33 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

Heh... my cynical answer? Guns.





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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: NSA Prism program - 6/8/2013 9:47:29 PM   
Aswad


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Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren

I am upset about this, not because the NSA has the data per se, but that there are no checks and balances over it.


We have a winner. This, and the fact that it's clearly not working, is a serious issue for me, without any tinfoil.

Plus, some laws are unjust. That's always been the case, and always will be. I sure as hell don't want the turnkey infrastructure for fundies to go after anyone that commits a sin in their view. And, politically, just imagine if these systems had been available to the likes of McCarthy.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: NSA Prism program - 6/8/2013 9:58:13 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

Heh... my cynical answer? Guns.


That option will close in your lifetime, Jeff.

In this age, the Last Man will live or die.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: NSA Prism program - 6/9/2013 12:10:58 AM   
JeffBC


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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
Heh... my cynical answer? Guns.

That option will close in your lifetime, Jeff.

In this age, the Last Man will live or die.

You have always been more pessimistic than me. Even if my worst fears are materialized the future is a big place... really, really big.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: NSA Prism program - 6/9/2013 3:21:32 AM   
SadistDave


Posts: 801
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Not just Anonymous... Don't forget that Odumbass just had a meeting with China and was allegedly very upset about their cyber attacks.

Personally, I don't think the government should be spying on it's citizens. However, I tend to consider this more of a national security risk. If foreign powers have the ability to hack these government databases then there are serious security risks. There is an awful lot of unsecured information that gets routinely passed around by military personel, industry, and government that paints a pretty clear picture of whats going on with the nations security. Foreign governments are probably not too concerned about who Tazzy is fucking today any more than Barry Soetoro is, but they would definitely be interested information stored in our systems that provide a comprehensive map of all our troop locations or the research and development information of government contractors and weapons manufacturers.

These programs operate in large part on keywords and collecting metadata. Any entity with the ability to hack our systems probably has their own version of Prism (or in the works) now. If they can hack us already they're probaly smart enough to change the parameters of the searches and metadata collection. So, instead of searching for the word "bomb", for instance, they can change the search term to specific technical term used in aerospace engineering and have information being passed around between weapons manufacturers. Any foreign government with the ability to hack us is probably smart enough to use metadata information to track troop movements. When 5000 phone calls are being made from a military base to a specific location and suddenly 3 hours later 5000 phone calls originating from that same base are being made to a completely different location, there really aren't too many explanations other than a troop movement.

This is another example in a long line of Oblamer failures. He flip-flopped on this issue once he was elected and increased the program he claimed was unnecessary when he campaigned for his first Presidential bid. His ramped up spy programs went public the very week he had to beg a foreign government to stop exploiting the exact technology against the U.S. that he is directing at American citizens.

Do not expect the lefties here to comprehend the significance of any of this.

-SD-



< Message edited by SadistDave -- 6/9/2013 3:24:11 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: NSA Prism program - 6/9/2013 3:42:32 AM   
YN


Posts: 699
Status: offline 		The Chinese, who are likely your biggest internet/data security/cellphone etc. threat already have a multi-million million man backplane dedicated to cyber/electronic snooping and likely already have copies of your Prism's software up and running.

Not that they needed the material.

As for the drug gangsters, they already have established sophisticated security protocols to use cellphones/internet etc. for their communications. Once in a long while they get caught short and detained as a result of their security failings, but burner phones, and second and third hand network cards and computers along with their security protocols insure their drug trade's communications function.

The jihadi are not stupid either, nor are corporate criminals.

The purpose of this spying is political control of the public, not to catch any criminals or terrorists, for the governments already spy on whoever they want with impunity, this merely legitimizes their previous conduct when it is now directed at the working and middle class..

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: NSA Prism program - 6/9/2013 6:59:18 AM   
JeffBC


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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: YN
The purpose of this spying is political control of the public, not to catch any criminals or terrorists, for the governments already spy on whoever they want with impunity, this merely legitimizes their previous conduct when it is now directed at the working and middle class..

That's the thing which is interesting. Without a doubt the US government is engaging in and spending vast amounts of money on covert surveillance of it's own citizens. In other words... "spying". I hadn't though we generally felt positive about governments which did that. It is not yet a police state... "turn key police state" I think is a valid description. But man... more and more locks are falling into place.


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: NSA Prism program - 6/9/2013 8:14:04 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

I`m still trying to figure out why this is news.



It was in the news and we were commenting on it....



sound familiar?

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RE: NSA Prism program - 6/9/2013 9:59:51 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
But man... more and more locks are falling into place.


yes... ..couple the surveillance with govt abuse of its powers (IRS & other depts harassing, etc) and warrants, surveillance on reporters (& their family), and now they are opening a criminal investigation to hunt this whistleblower who leaked these docs to the media.. to shrug and say its no big deal, just amazes me.. these people that are so gung ho (especially about right to bear arms) just roll over like whipped dogs when the same constitution that they supposedly believe so strongly in has been shredded to bits.. without whistleblowers, the govt has no opposition to their continued and more intrusive surveillance & repression.. without reporters to make info public and give citizens the right to know, the govt has no opposition, no one to hold their feet to the fire.. And its not just American citizens, its other govts & their citizens in the rest of the whole world (except the UK) and they are pissed off by it also..

I hope to hell that they never find out who this whistleblower is..

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