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RE: NSA Prism program - 6/11/2013 4:24:34 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
If you`re not doing crimes, there`s no need to be worried.....those that are worried about what they say, maybe should be.


Oh please, *please* don't repeat that one, Owner. We get that on a daily basis from the Tory government and their insufferably stupid, stuffed up supporters, here in the UK. It stinks of authoritarianism. The line assumes that the governments doing the surveilling are themselves utterly honest and free from all corruption and that they could never conceivably or seriously be otherwise. They frigging well aren't and it's been demonstrated over and over again.

And to underline the point: look at how much governments and their agents regularly claim that they need to do things in secret. Yeah, right. After so many years of the police here colluding with the press to provide salacious material for the latter to print for a fat fee - something that has become big and ongoing news here in the UK? Fuck that. Yes to our watching our governments more closely; absolutely no to their being able to watch us more closely. Our governments are much more likely to act like naughty children than we are.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 6/11/2013 4:30:57 PM >


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Profile   Post #: 101
RE: NSA Prism program - 6/11/2013 4:29:22 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Honestly, with those numbers, are you really worried that the NSA can even examine a tenth of the volume in a given day?

Absolutely. You seriously need to go find someone who is a big data architect and ask him this question. As long as you operate from a basis of incorrect understanding then your conclusions will never be accurate. There is ZERO question as to what could be done with this data. We are only discussing whether they will do it or not... and if so when.



Look, all I am saying is that using a computer alone to go through all that data is not going to get anyone very far. It will still take a human to examine that data to see if there is really a threat or not. The current system the NSA is using is due to be replaced in October of this year with a titan super computer developed at Oak Ridge TN.

Alright, the NSA has the capability to spy on every form of electronic communication in the country, that is their job.

quote:

But it's not at all tricky for the government, as Eric Lichtblau and James Risen of the New York Times reported in this Pulitzer-Prize winning story in 2005:

As part of the program approved by President Bush for domestic surveillance without warrants, the N.S.A. has gained the cooperation of American telecommunications companies to obtain backdoor access to streams of domestic and international communications, the officials said.

Over the weekend Lichtblau and Risen reported that Verizon has "set up a dedicated fiber-optic line running from New Jersey to Quantico, Va., home to a large military base, allowing government officials to gain access to all communications flowing through the carrier’s operations center."

CYBER EXPERT: The NSA Has The Means And Motive To Spy On Everyone


However, with all that data, how are they actually going to check the email or cell phone calls of every citizen of the US? Remember, a prepaid no contract cell phone does require a name on the agreement, but it does not have to be a real name.

Besides, everyone is screaming Obama did it... actually Obama just continued with the program set up by Bush after 9/11, who just modified a program set up by a previous president.

The supreme court ruled that users have no right to privacy using a cell phone, and again there has been no ruling concerning the internet.

Oh, fyi, one of the main things the NSA monitors is social networks like face book. Now considering how many people post every little detail of what they are doing at any given minute of every day, add to that the number of "grumpy cat" memes that are posted and reposted, as well as all the other dog, cat, baby, family photos...

What was it said about the internet, it is just like ancient Egypt, everyone worships cats and writes on walls?


its their job?

to violate rights?

ok.

not only do they violate everyones rights, they were created for that purpose of violating peoples rights and have full intention to continue to violate peoples rights.

Over the airwaves is "narrowly" understandable if they happen to have something drop into their lap, however they set up monitoring stations with FULL INTENT.

Now over the wires is completely another story, that is no longer something that could just happen by freak occurrence and is 100% willful.

these cases do not get properly set up in the courts and then we get shit on due to shit cases being run through purposefully.

The system should be abolished.


< Message edited by Real0ne -- 6/11/2013 4:38:28 PM >


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: NSA Prism program - 6/11/2013 4:40:05 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
If you`re not doing crimes, there`s no need to be worried.....those that are worried about what they say, maybe should be.


Oh please, *please* don't repeat that one, Owner. We get that on a daily basis from the Tory government and their insufferably stupid, stuffed up supporters, here in the UK. It stinks of authoritarianism. The line assumes that the governments doing the surveilling are themselves utterly honest and free from all corruption and that they could never conceivably or seriously be otherwise. They frigging well aren't and it's been demonstrated over and over again.

And to underline the point: look at how much governments and their agents regularly claim that they need to do things in secret. Yeah, right. After so many years of the police here colluding with the press to provide salacious material for the latter to print for a fat fee - something that has become big and ongoing news here in the UK? Fuck that. Yes to our watching our governments more closely; absolutely no to their being able to watch us more closely. Our governments are much more likely to act like naughty children than we are.



americans do not grasp the distinctions. many of them are hopelessly brainwashed




< Message edited by Real0ne -- 6/11/2013 4:41:27 PM >


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: NSA Prism program - 6/11/2013 5:08:11 PM   
BitYakin


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Joined: 10/15/2005
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I wish I could remember where I heard or read this, but the jist of it was the LAST stage of an empire or dynasty is APATHY of the people

its when the people are so used to being screwed over they think it party of normal everyday life

I have seen ALOT of apathy in posts here, people waying SO WHAT, WHO CARES etc etc etc

the fact that they are doing this comes as NO SURPRIZE to most people, the surprizing thing is just how many people JUST DON"T CARE!

to those that think this is OK, and cite GOOFY things like PRIVACY on the internet is not guarenteed etc etc etc well you are WRONG, while the internet is not SPECIFICLY mentioned in the constitution, privacy IN GENERAL is guarenteed by the constitution

tell me why is e-mail so very diferant from US postal mail? with the exception that its electronic instead of paper

WHY is a peice of paper in an envelope SACRED but not a PRIVATE E-MAIL?


(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: NSA Prism program - 6/11/2013 5:14:10 PM   
YN


Posts: 699
Status: offline

A lumpenbourgeoisie does not care, as long as as it keeps his artificial "middle class" status secure and the "field" peones in line, and below him in the social order. He has no concept that these things might apply to him, as he sees himself as the the beneficiary and guardian of the authoritarian state while actually functioning as a completly subservient lackey of the ruling class.

Much as hounds see their places and roles and function as the intermediaries between foxes and the aristocratic fox hunters in the United Kingdom.

If you could interview one of the hounds, you would hear similar statements. ""We would not be chasing the fox if it was innocent," "the men on horses know what is good for us and the other animals, God put them in charge," "They hunt the rabbit criminals in France, and the pheasant criminals in the United States with dogs, too."

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: NSA Prism program - 6/11/2013 5:36:49 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

I wish I could remember where I heard or read this, but the jist of it was the LAST stage of an empire or dynasty is APATHY of the people

its when the people are so used to being screwed over they think it party of normal everyday life

I have seen ALOT of apathy in posts here, people waying SO WHAT, WHO CARES etc etc etc

the fact that they are doing this comes as NO SURPRIZE to most people, the surprizing thing is just how many people JUST DON"T CARE!

to those that think this is OK, and cite GOOFY things like PRIVACY on the internet is not guarenteed etc etc etc well you are WRONG, while the internet is not SPECIFICLY mentioned in the constitution, privacy IN GENERAL is guarenteed by the constitution

tell me why is e-mail so very diferant from US postal mail? with the exception that its electronic instead of paper

WHY is a peice of paper in an envelope SACRED but not a PRIVATE E-MAIL?



because we do not have jurys making these decisions in law but paid off judges who get their checks from the same people that the inhabitants are fighting for their freedom "from". the whole system is rico on its face. LOL


this is close:

Each of the great civilizations in the world passed through a series of stages from their birth to their decline to their death. Historians have listed these in ten stages.

The first stage moves from bondage to spiritual faith.

The second from spiritual faith to great courage.

The third stage moves from great courage to liberty.

The fourth stage moves from liberty to abundance.

The fifth stage moves from abundance to selfishness.

The sixth stage moves from selfishness to complacency.

The seventh stage moves from complacency to apathy.

The eighth stage moves from apathy to moral decay.

The ninth stage moves from moral decay to dependence.

And the tenth and last stage moves from dependence to bondage.

These are the ten stages through which the great civilizations have gone. Notice the progression from bondage to liberty back to bondage. The first generation throws off the shackles of bondage only to have a later generation through apathy and indifference allow itself to once again be enslaved.



< Message edited by Real0ne -- 6/11/2013 5:37:54 PM >


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to BitYakin)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: NSA Prism program - 6/11/2013 8:56:52 PM   
BitYakin


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yes I do beleive thats the quote I was refering to!

and I guess I was wrong apathy isn't the last stage, but close to the end!

its certianly the begining of the end and I am pretty sure america is somhere between stage 7 and 9 right now!

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: NSA Prism program - 6/11/2013 9:10:20 PM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
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Its called the Tytler cycle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Fraser_Tytler

The famous Fatal Sequence quotation, sometimes known as the Tytler cycle, is

"The historical cycle seems to be: From bondage to spiritual faith; from spiritual faith to courage; from courage to liberty; from liberty to abundance; from abundance to selfishness; from selfishness to apathy; from apathy to dependency; and from dependency back to bondage once more."

And, to he honest, we have been through the bolded ones.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 6/11/2013 9:11:07 PM >


_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to BitYakin)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: NSA Prism program - 6/11/2013 9:53:18 PM   
BitYakin


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Joined: 10/15/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Its called the Tytler cycle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Fraser_Tytler

The famous Fatal Sequence quotation, sometimes known as the Tytler cycle, is

"The historical cycle seems to be: From bondage to spiritual faith; from spiritual faith to courage; from courage to liberty; from liberty to abundance; from abundance to selfishness; from selfishness to apathy; from apathy to dependency; and from dependency back to bondage once more."

And, to he honest, we have been through the bolded ones.


actually from what I have read here and on news I think we are past from selfishness to apathy and into from apathy to dependancy

and poll just conducted says aprox 60% of people surveyed feel its at least SOMEWHAT OK for them to do this...

which means they are apathetic about losing some liberty and dependant on the NSA to care for thier safety

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: NSA Prism program - 6/11/2013 10:33:55 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin
and poll just conducted says aprox 60% of people surveyed feel its at least SOMEWHAT OK for them to do this...

I have more hope. The administration has so misled them that they know not what they say. I seriously need to see if I can put together a video to demonstrate... something to put it in visceral terms. When you say "call record meta data" to the average person so long as you aren't actually listening in they don't see the harm. When you say some drone surveillance it makes you cringe a little but you know... these are dangerous times and all. When you say "we have taps into the entire internet but we only use them for bad guys" that should have gotten some attention. But int he end, it's just some internet data, right?

I think the people might have a different opinion if they understood just what could be done with that data... done realistically and in real time across the entire population of the united states with technology that exists or is actually in the process of being built (eg: no science fiction... the real deal.. Stellar Wind).

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to BitYakin)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: NSA Prism program - 6/12/2013 11:12:05 AM   
papassion


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Think how many times you make jokes or say things like, "I'd like to ram a stick of dynamite up my useless boss's ass!" or make idle threats about an ex or coworker? Of course you don't really intend to carry out the idle threat, but they could set off a "moniter this call!" to the listeners. And the listener would have to moniter your conversation for a short while to determine if you were serious or not. During which time, he would be privy to some of your most intimate conversation.

If this plan is so good, How did Boston happen? Especially when given two warnings from Russia! If you remember when we were hunting for Osama, the news said Osama and company, did not use cell phones because they knew they could be monitored and located. We were also told the terrorist obtained lots of cell phones both to use as detonators for roadside bombs and to always have different cell numbers so they could not be pointed out. Does our Security Agency think the terrorists suddenly woke up stupid and forgot these lessons?

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: NSA Prism program - 6/12/2013 11:19:06 AM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion
Think how many times you make jokes or say things like, "I'd like to ram a stick of dynamite up my useless boss's ass!" or make idle threats about an ex or coworker? Of course you don't really intend to carry out the idle threat, but they could set off a "moniter this call!" to the listeners. And the listener would have to moniter your conversation for a short while to determine if you were serious or not. During which time, he would be privy to some of your most intimate conversation.

And... since all that stuff is saved and recorded IN PERPETUITY, they may do so at any point in the future. Someone 20 years from now could replay the "private" life of anyone in the US retroactively. I keep trying to say this. This is not a "they eavesdrop if they are concerned" thing. They are gathering everything. They sift through it when they are concerned but all the data is there and it's all being monitored by computer analysis programs.

For those who aren't worried about this stuff, you might note that google has made a tidy profit with exactly this sort of data... actually an awful lot less than the kind of data we are talking about with the various fed programs. Obviously, it has massive value.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to papassion)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: NSA Prism program - 6/12/2013 1:09:16 PM   
YN


Posts: 699
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Wait until the hooligans start hacking it, or selling it. And it will certainly be for sale.

Perhaps the best defense is a good offense, and the world's computer nerds should create their own great database, with access for all. Any corporate entity fully laid out together with the names, addresses, biographies, and electronic communications of every employee laid out, along with who the bankers and politicians mistresses are and their phone records, etc..

The big problem is actually studying the results as was previously noted, but since there are far more working and middle class than there are ruling class, in this case the plebes would have the upper hand in terms of studying the data.

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: NSA Prism program - 6/12/2013 1:18:59 PM   
Real0ne


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Life with a gun pointed directly at our heads or complete slavery, take your pick.

Team America

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 6/12/2013 1:20:05 PM >


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: NSA Prism program - 6/12/2013 4:30:28 PM   
Aswad


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Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

Sure... but over the long view chaos theory enters my mind and is... well... chaotic :)


Chaotic math doesn't change the fact that some states are entropically favorable. Chaoticity (?) is more a question of the evolution path of a system, not what its stable states are. A cold crystalline lattice doesn't exhibit chaotic liquid or gas behaviors at that temperature, because it's in a favorable state as-is. Yes, slow random migration happens, but that's local scale chaotic behavior, i.e. confined to the scale the temperature permits.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: NSA Prism program - 6/12/2013 5:05:41 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Its called the Tytler cycle




I thought that was a bike....... I fell off mine staring at your arse.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: NSA Prism program - 6/12/2013 5:06:49 PM   
tazzygirl


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grins... need any boo boo's kissed?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: NSA Prism program - 6/12/2013 5:08:12 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

grins... need any boo boo's kissed?



Just the one Tazzy, just the one.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: NSA Prism program - 6/12/2013 5:10:07 PM   
tazzygirl


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LOL Oh the trouble I could get into!

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: NSA Prism program - 6/12/2013 5:11:19 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Its called the Tytler cycle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Fraser_Tytler

The famous Fatal Sequence quotation, sometimes known as the Tytler cycle, is

"The historical cycle seems to be: From bondage to spiritual faith; from spiritual faith to courage; from courage to liberty; from liberty to abundance; from abundance to selfishness; from selfishness to apathy; from apathy to dependency; and from dependency back to bondage once more."

And, to he honest, we have been through the bolded ones.


actually from what I have read here and on news I think we are past from selfishness to apathy and into from apathy to dependancy

and poll just conducted says aprox 60% of people surveyed feel its at least SOMEWHAT OK for them to do this...

which means they are apathetic about losing some liberty and dependant on the NSA to care for thier safety


For myself, it depends on the extent of that liberty I may have lost. Which is what I am trying to get too on the other thread.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to BitYakin)
Profile   Post #: 120
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