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RE: But I made a commitment??? - 6/26/2006 10:51:11 AM

darkinshadows

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Well I know that at the end of the day she is not happy and doesn't have respect for the man she is laying down with. She is merely going through the motions because as she said "she made a commitment". In the end the responsibility for staying or leaving is on her....and she is quite aware of that. She doesn't bitch and whine about her situation and she acknowledges that she has choices.

But I only used her situation because I think it is a good example. I'm really looking for other's viewpoints on commitment and what negates it for them rather than for people to attempt to solve her issues.

I understood the question erin and just responded as I did - whether to the situation or the direct question.

Being true to oneself.

And if commitment trumps personal empathy or morals, then that is where it stays.

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RE: But I made a commitment??? - 6/26/2006 10:53:44 AM

kittinSol

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Oh for foarkssake.

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RE: But I made a commitment??? - 6/26/2006 10:58:23 AM

gentlethistle

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erin

I'll try to answer the question that you originally posed...i.e....'at what point would your commitment be negated for you', rather than try to say anything about what I think your friend (or anyone else) should do.

I think that there would be certain deal-breakers for me. One of those would be abuse, primarily physical, but I guess there might be other non-physical ways in which the term might apply. I'm not talking here about pain that I didn't expect, didn't like or retrospectively felt bad about. I know there are all sort of grey areas here in a BDSM context, but in my own relationship I think that I mean that if I specifically, verbally withdrew consent from something that was happening to me and it continued I would feel abused. Ditto, if in retrospective communication I made it clear that I couldn't tolerate something happening again, specifically declared it as a hard limit, if you like, and it continued to happen. In those circumstances I would feel that I could justifiably withdraw from my commitment. At the moment I feel that I have sufficient trust to hand the decisions about what is done to my body over to someone else, and feel confident that I won't actually be harmed, but if I lost that trust I'm not sure I could continue doing that.

Dishonesty would also be a deal-breaker for me. I'm not talking about a temporary witholding of information, or changing the goal posts as a form of teasing. I mean that if I had been deliberately, systematically lied to about something that could reasonably be seen as important to me. Then I would feel that I too could withdraw my consent and break my commitment.

The other thing that is a huge problem for me is the issue of communication. I don't think this is such an either-or sudden death thing as the other two. Communication often atrophies and decays rather than suddenly breaking down. So it's harder to judge when it's not actually there any more. Like an old beach hut rotting away in the salt air....when is it not actually a building any more and just chunks of wood? But in the end, I think that I couldn't remain true to commitment to someone I couldn't communicate with at all. Eventually I would have to break a promise and walk, even if it took years to do...

I think that opinions held and how third-parties are treated do have an impact. It's a matter of where to draw the line. I can continue to honour a commitment to someone whose opinions simply differ from mine, both in principle and implementation. However, if I started to disagree with everything they thought and said and did it's bound to have an impact on my level of respect and how good I'm going to feel about following their lead or obeying their wishes. 'Reasoned prejudice' I can just about stomach. But I find it very tough tolerating intolerance (it's a particular bigotry of mine!). I lived for years with someone I considered to be homophobic. It never had any direct impact on our relationship or friendships, but I did find the fact deeply uncomfortable. I can cope with being with people who hold views that others might view as racist. But I think the line would probably be crossed if someone were acting on that, certainly to be violent or abusive to others, maybe even obnoxious. On the other hand, how would I deal with an 'equal opportunity git'? Someone who was just horrid to everyone they saw as beneath them, without discrimination. Hmmm, not sure.... I suppose I could cope with someone embarassing me in front of my friends, embarassing them, just generally being embarassing. I'm not the person I'm with and hopefully people who know me well will understand that. In fact, they'd probably (a) feel sorry for me and (b) feel sorry for him for being such an idiot. But in the end, people aren't going to want to be around me if they don't want to be around someone I'm with. So, again, the treatment of third parties would probably be a slow-burn negator of commitment for me.

Not sure if that long ramble makes any sort of sense, but it's what I think I think.

Laura

< Message edited by gentlethistle -- 6/26/2006 11:02:44 AM >

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RE: But I made a commitment??? - 6/26/2006 11:03:42 AM

mistoferin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zenofeller
i don't know when i'd drop a comitment, i have not done so yet. but i am certain it will never be based on interactions with third parties

Never??? So then if you were in a committed relationship with someone and they suddenly started making racist remarks to your friends of color...or people in the grocery store, and you expressed to them that this was something that you found to be distasteful, but despite your feelings on the matter they continued to consistently do so....that would be ok for you? How about if they thought it was ok to interact in rude and arrogant ways with someone you work with....your boss for example? Or someone in your family....your Mother for example? What if they decided to engage third parties in a manner that was illegal? Never is an awfully long time.

I didn't suggest to her that she leave him. I asked her why she stays. If I were to suggest to her to leave it would not be because of the way he chooses to express himself...it would be because the way he chooses to express himself is a clear indicator of what he is....an asshole.

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RE: But I made a commitment??? - 6/26/2006 11:18:35 AM

mistoferin

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Thank you gentlethistle....I appreciate your response. I found your last paragraph interesting. I don't think that I could seperate myself from those I am with as effectively as you.....actually I wish that I had a bit more ability to do so than I do. I have always felt that my behavior reflects upon those I am with and vice versa. "You lie down with dogs you get up with fleas", "Guilt by association" and "Birds of a feather flock together" are things I often heard my Mother say to me as I was growing up. I guess that somewhere along the line I took them to heart. I don't believe that I could personally stay committed to someone whose views and the appropriate or inappropriate expression of them were so far from my own.

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 6/26/2006 11:22:26 AM >

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RE: But I made a commitment??? - 6/26/2006 11:24:32 AM

zenofeller

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if i and x have some sort of comitment and x does something to y,

if i agree that whatever x did is in general undesirable, and so does x. if i give a rat's ass about y, we work out some atonement. if i don't, that's that.

if i agree that whatever x did is in general undesirable, but x does not. if i think it's important enough, we duke it out. but at this point, it's no longer interaction with third parties. if i don't, that's that.

i didn't quite get what you said, so "it would not be because of the way he chooses to express himself...it would be because the way he chooses to express himself is a clear indicator of what he is....an asshole." is intended to mean she should leave him for being an asshole, or for the fact that the way he chooses to express is a clear indicator ? she should stick if he weren't an asshole or if behaviour wasn't an indicator ?

why do you think women should always ditch assholes by the way ? if my boss is an asshole should i go to his wife and counsel her about leaving ?

< Message edited by zenofeller -- 6/26/2006 11:26:09 AM >

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RE: But I made a commitment??? - 6/26/2006 11:35:07 AM

mistoferin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zenofeller
why do you think women should always ditch assholes by the way ?

I don't. I think that sometimes an asshole is a perfect compliment to their female equivalent. By all means in that case, they should stay together because they deserve each other.

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RE: But I made a commitment??? - 6/26/2006 11:37:22 AM

mistoferin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zenofeller
if i agree that whatever x did is in general undesirable, but x does not. if i think it's important enough, we duke it out.

And if you come up on the losing end of this duel...you just suck it up and live with it?

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RE: But I made a commitment??? - 6/26/2006 11:44:13 AM

zenofeller

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perhaps i wasn't very clear. by duke it out i didn't mean we actually fight, i meant we discuss it. it may turn out x is actually right, and i'm wrong. if that happens, not only will i live with it, but i will actually happily unroot and dispose of any mistaken ideas i can find in my head, and be thankful for it. or it may turn out x is wrong, in which case i expect x to do exactly the same with his head.

< Message edited by zenofeller -- 6/26/2006 11:46:31 AM >

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RE: But I made a commitment??? - 6/26/2006 11:56:16 AM

mistoferin

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Thank you...although I didn't really think you were referring to a physical competition. Although you didn't say what you would do in the event that your discussion turns out to end in a draw? You still thinking that you are in the right and them either thinking they are or just blatantly not caring what you think and continuing said behavior.

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When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

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RE: But I made a commitment??? - 6/26/2006 11:59:25 AM

scratchingpost

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHugs

Dear mistoferin, Ladies and Gentlemen;

What is difficult in the leather, BDSM, D/s, M/s and or S&M community, et.al., is that there is not enough 'safe houses' to move a lot of the people who find themselves in a relationship that may be deemed abusive. For the vanilla world, there are such places but, our "community" is spread out but, small. Unfortunate for all, we're subjected to assumptions, one sided stories, prone to popularity and or name recognitions and or who we're associated with. Our 'community" et.al. is very judgmental and harsh.

I personally do not see the worth in investing into a purse with a big hole in it, e.g. this particular exampled dominant. You should be able to look at the purse and see the wealth within that has been acquired.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

There are not enough safe houses in the nilla world either I'm afraid...Leaving abusive situations is a complicated process in any realm. The bdsm organization that I know of is called Immediate Family plus looking at the KAP website might help direct people towards finding safehouses and kink aware people who can help legally medically and psychologically

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RE: But I made a commitment??? - 6/26/2006 12:04:26 PM

LadyHugs

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Dear KnightofMists, Ladies and Gentlemen;

Only the person who is in the situation of being witness to the exampled dominant's behavior can determine when the line is crossed.

Only the person who is in the vortex of the situation can determine when the investment is no longer worth the dividends. So, until that person (the submissive in erin's post) has exhausted all the remedies to problem solve things herself and when she has had enough--then it is her choice to divorce herself from the situation and or relationship.

Respectfully submitted,
Lady Hugs

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RE: But I made a commitment??? - 6/26/2006 12:24:58 PM

Darkraven6

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It seems to me, that he broke the commitment long before this. So by her choosing to leave, if infact she would, would no longer be at issue. What she needs, is to get out of that situation. By staying in it, she is only allowing him to continue abusing her, as well as everyone else it seems. I know first hand, its a long and very hard road to come back on, once youve been in such an abusive situation, or worse, and my heart goes out to her. For her own sake, she needs to leave him, and keep in mind, that she counts as well...regardless of how she must feel and what hes told her.

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RE: But I made a commitment??? - 6/26/2006 12:30:54 PM

CreativeDominant

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

I have a friend who accepted a collar from the "Dominant of her dreams" only to find out that he is seriously lacking as a human being. In their courtship he was "all she had ever hoped for". Granted, he was on his best behavior and showed only the "gentlemanly" side of himself. They have been together for a couple of years now and his "true colors" are in full show. At this point she is utterly embarassed to go anywhere in public with him. He is a snob who treats everyone as though they are but shit on his shoes. He is a racist and constantly makes racist remarks. He treats service people rudely. Every time he opens his mouth you can see the fear in her eyes as to what he is going to say. He doesn't care one whit what anyone thinks of his obnoxious arrogance.

I have asked her why it is that she stays with him. Her answer...."because I made a commitment".

I have seen many times, both in real life and on here, where a submissive is clearly unhappy with "who" their Dominant is...and yet they stay because "they made a commitment". I have seen countless women stay in situations that are abusive...."because they made a commitment".

My question is just exactly at what point would your "commitment" be negated for you?

I'll try to answer your question without going into your friend's specific circumstance.

There are various deal-breakers for me that would almost immediately end my commitment to the relationship. One would be serious, ongoing dishonesty. Another would be a lack of communication until after the fact. Another would be abuse of either a physical or emotional nature towards me or towards anyone else, even more so when the abused person has no means of defending themselves against the abuse.

There are gray areas. Certain elements by themselves, while they may create a problem, would not necessarily mean the end of a commitment on my part. However, when taken together, they could. These are more difficult to state. An example I can give is someone honestly trying to commit to me and yet being torn between that commitment and their commitment to their children and their children's loyalty and love to their father, and lying to me, to them, to their father all in an attempt to guide things herself. I ended my commitment to her by sending her back to finish unfinished business.

I will think more on this, erin and see what other areas come to mind for me. In closing, I have to say...without all the facts...that if your friend has honestly tried to talk to him about his behavior and he won't change and it doesn't fit into what she can be happy with or bargained for when they initially got together, then despite the level of investment, it may be better to cut her losses now as to wait until she is even more invested.

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RE: But I made a commitment??? - 6/26/2006 12:45:19 PM

gentlethistle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

I don't think that I could seperate myself from those I am with as effectively as you.....actually I wish that I had a bit more ability to do so than I do. I have always felt that my behavior reflects upon those I am with and vice versa....

....I don't believe that I could personally stay committed to someone whose views and the appropriate or inappropriate expression of them were so far from my own.

erin

I'm not sure that I can claim to be unmoved by this dilemma. I think behaviours and views do reflect both ways in a relationship, whether we like it or not.

But in a D/s relationship there is a presumed deference that only runs one way. That said, I have always been encouraged to express my own opinions, even when they differ from those of my dominant. And I find that very difficult to do. I find some of our differences difficult to stomach and I've told him this. But so far I have done so. I'm not in a situation where he is interacting in public (or with my friends) in any way that embarasses me, so I don't have to deal with that. We just have some different ideas and views. So perhaps I'm saying that I'm not forced to confront an 'inappropriate expression' of ideas. We just differ...and to differ is human. At what point do I say, 'This man it too different from me, I want nothing more to do with him?' A D/s dynamic is, by definition, founded upon difference...I can't always hope for all differences to be complementary ones, some will be antagonistic.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I could envisage a circumstance where actions towards third parties could negate my comitment but I'm not sure exactly where I would draw the line between 'uncomfortable' and 'wrong' if those actions were based upon genuinely held and honestly expressed ideals, but ones that are different from mine.

Laura

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RE: But I made a commitment??? - 6/26/2006 12:50:23 PM

meatcleaver

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General point

Relationships are like tins of beans. If the manufacturer changes the sauce, that can be a dealbreaker for brand loyalty. If the beans make you fart too much, that is abuse so once again one has an excuse to end brand loyalty. Most reasons for leaving someone or remaining commited to someone appear to me to be rationalisations because we don't like to be honest with ourselves. Sometimes commitment is just being loyal to a brand, even if its not the best brand on the market.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 6/26/2006 12:51:29 PM >

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RE: But I made a commitment??? - 6/26/2006 12:51:04 PM

zenofeller

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mist, i don't see how it could end in a draw.

darkraven, that crap about "he broke the commitment long before this" is really just self justifying pep talk. you don't want to buy this car ? but you;ve in fact already started buying this car when you got a credit card. it's what you wanted all along. so by actually signing the papers you'd just be doing what you meant all along. pfft.

to some, bdsm is just as unacceptable as "not being nice to the help" may be to you.

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RE: But I made a commitment??? - 6/26/2006 1:15:03 PM

Taylore

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quote:

My question is just exactly at what point would your "commitment" be negated for you?

A simple question, and yet there are no simple answers. I have read this question and come back to it a couple times, trying to find an answer that would fit the question.
My relationship with Master is complex, as are most relationships. I think, that it would not take one thing that would negate our contract, but rather, many little things. Then, these little things would have to be of such importance that I would lose all respect for him. Only then could I end the relationship without a second glance back.

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RE: But I made a commitment??? - 6/26/2006 1:25:55 PM

mistoferin

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gentlethistle,
Maybe I'm just getting old and set in my ways...or maybe I have just had enough experiences in life that have provided ample opportunity for me to decide what is important to me and what's not. I don't involve myself lightly in a relationship...so by the time a commitment is made I have pretty well determined if our differences are ones that I can live with. I don't expect a partner to be a carbon copy of me or to only value the same things as I...but I do expect a partner to be what they represent themselves to be. Relationships are work...on the part of both parties involved. I don't see it working however, if one party conducts themselves in a manner that totally disregards the other.

Like my girlfriend, I have had men that were the perfect gentlemen types in the early stages only to find out down the road that they were someone completely different. I guess that is at least one of the reasons why I don't commit without serious thought and some time to see how things play themselves out.

Yes, D/s is based on unbalance. Being Dominant does not give license though to act in any manner you please without regard to the fact that you are not the only one inhabiting the earth. I strive to make the person that I am with proud to have me in their company....I also wish to be able to look up to the person that I am with and feel proud to be in their company.

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When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

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RE: But I made a commitment??? - 6/26/2006 1:32:05 PM

mistoferin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zenofeller
mist, i don't see how it could end in a draw.

Well I guess I don't understand your line of thought on this. Having been in a couple of long term relationships and having had many discussions along the way, I can think of more than a few instances where in the end, the only thing we could ultimately agree upon was to disagree. Thus....a draw. Most times what results from that is that you find that you are simply different in ways that don't really change the core dynamic. There has been a time or two though that it's the point at which you have to make a decision on just how important the issue you are disagreeing upon is to you....and respond accordingly to the answer to that question.

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~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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