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RE: Would you be open to marrying your submissive half? - 6/9/2013 9:28:58 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline 		I understand. There's the logical/job aspect and the emotional aspect. Two very different things, and nerve wracking on both sides, for different reasons.

My issues had more to do with me ex's game playing than anything else. Could have been so much simpler otherwise.

But again, the court here looks at income and length of marriage.

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RE: Would you be open to marrying your submissive half? - 6/9/2013 9:29:27 PM   
LafayetteLady


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From: Northern New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

Well since he told me I should have claimed abuse and I did, and it obviously had no bearing at all, I did want to point it out. My divorce took me three years and cost $25,000 in legal fees, thanks to my ex's shenanigans. Nothing is so simple as black and white.




I'm really sorry you had to go through that. I'm sure it doesn't help, but you got off easy with only 25K in legal fees, lol.

Trying to explain how no fault in a divorce works is difficult at best. The abuse gives you cause for the divorce, but means nothing when it comes to distribution of assets.

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RE: Would you be open to marrying your submissive half? - 6/9/2013 9:31:41 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
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Status: offline 		Agreed. No fault means you get divorced. No one cares why. No one cares what was spent leading up to it. In that way, it is very simplified.

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RE: Would you be open to marrying your submissive half? - 6/9/2013 9:42:51 PM   
Spiritedsub2


Posts: 3316
Joined: 7/18/2012
Status: online 		V
quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spiritedsub2

Will only warn that in California, prenups will protect your assets but are virtually useless with regard to spousal support. And entirely useless regarding child support, as you said.


It's all in how they are written. Anywhere you live. Except for child support.

ETA: CA screws people with that whole community property thing. Income and numbers don't matter. No fault so cause doesn't matter. 50/50. There are times that is very fair, and times it is very unfair.

No. It is not "all in how they are written". With regard to spousal support ONLY, the legal standard is whether the court finds enforcement of the spousal support provision unconscionable at the time enforcement is sought. What this generally means, obviously, is a prenup spousal support waiver, with the waiving spouse wanting to retract that waiver. If that spouse became disabled, or unemployable, after that prenup was signed, the court has the legal discretion to deny enforcement of that waiver. Unless people are clairvoyant, that prenuptial waiver is a shot in the dark.

edit: I am speaking of California only.

< Message edited by Spiritedsub2 -- 6/9/2013 9:50:15 PM >

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RE: Would you be open to marrying your submissive half? - 6/10/2013 1:19:33 AM   
RaspberryLemon


Posts: 422
Joined: 7/18/2011
Status: offline 		My Master plans on marrying me. We are both looking forward to it.

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RE: Would you be open to marrying your submissive half? - 6/10/2013 1:27:23 AM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Spiritedsub2

V
quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spiritedsub2

Will only warn that in California, prenups will protect your assets but are virtually useless with regard to spousal support. And entirely useless regarding child support, as you said.


It's all in how they are written. Anywhere you live. Except for child support.

ETA: CA screws people with that whole community property thing. Income and numbers don't matter. No fault so cause doesn't matter. 50/50. There are times that is very fair, and times it is very unfair.

No. It is not "all in how they are written". With regard to spousal support ONLY, the legal standard is whether the court finds enforcement of the spousal support provision unconscionable at the time enforcement is sought. What this generally means, obviously, is a prenup spousal support waiver, with the waiving spouse wanting to retract that waiver. If that spouse became disabled, or unemployable, after that prenup was signed, the court has the legal discretion to deny enforcement of that waiver. Unless people are clairvoyant, that prenuptial waiver is a shot in the dark.

edit: I am speaking of California only.


Which is how they are written. The court has the "legal discretion" to refuse to enforce any and all parts of a pre-nup, so in that effect, it is always a crap shoot. So I don't really care whether you are in CA or anywhere else in the US, that's what it is.

By the way, what kind of bullshit are you spouting with the court having "legal discretion?" It may impress those who are bitching about imagined gender bias, but for anyone with a clue, they already know the court has all the discretion it wants and don't need a bullshit term like "legal discretion." It demeans whatever actual legal knowledge you may have.

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RE: Would you be open to marrying your submissive half? - 6/10/2013 1:39:37 AM   
MzFee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fun2playwith88

Just wondering how many people on here would be open to marrying their submissive partner.


Absolutely! In fact, I did - for 28 years and then a totally amicable divorce.which was of my choosing.I even found him his present partner to take my place! We all remain great friends :)

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RE: Would you be open to marrying your submissive half? - 6/10/2013 3:17:13 AM   
AthenaSurrenders


Posts: 3582
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Status: offline 		fr

We're married. We had met in person twice, for a week each time, when we applied for a fiance visa for him to come and live with me. We then had six months to get married and apply for his next visa or he had to go home. He was also not legally allowed to work during that time, so there was additional time pressure in that respect too. We were married three months after he came to England, the day I turned 20.

Best chance I ever took.

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RE: Would you be open to marrying your submissive half? - 6/10/2013 9:02:41 AM   
Spiritedsub2


Posts: 3316
Joined: 7/18/2012
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady


quote:

ORIGINAL: Spiritedsub2

edit: I am speaking of California only.


...Which is how they are written. The court has the "legal discretion" to refuse to enforce any and all parts of a pre-nup, so in that effect, it is always a crap shoot. So I don't really care whether you are in CA or anywhere else in the US, that's what it is.

By the way, what kind of bullshit are you spouting with the court having "legal discretion?" It may impress those who are bitching about imagined gender bias, but for anyone with a clue, they already know the court has all the discretion it wants and don't need a bullshit term like "legal discretion." It demeans whatever actual legal knowledge you may have.


No, again, not in California. The court does not have unfettered legal discretion, no matter how much you might believe it does. The court has discretion on some issues, and does not have discretion on others. For example, the court does not have the discretion to enforce a waiver of child support by the recipient in a prenup or other stipulation, if that recipient later chooses to change his/her mind and applies for a child support order. Another example is property characterization in a validly executed prenup.
Having skilled appellate counsel (and the ability to afford it) further "fetters" the free exercise of discretion by the court. To bring this around to Jeff's post again, in California the area of custody and visitation is the area with the most broad court discretion.
Perhaps this dispute between us hinges on my frequent "in California only" boundary. I have extensive knowledge of and real world experience with California family law; I don't know squat about the same issues outside of California. My impression is that you are not a California practitioner.

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~ Rumi

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RE: Would you be open to marrying your submissive half? - 6/10/2013 10:37:56 AM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline 		I'm pretty knowledgeable about most states. Mainly because while you seem to think they are all different, they really aren't. There may be some minor calculation differences, but they aren't so vastly different that all this "in Cali" stuff is even relevant.

Child support can not be the subject of a pre-nup because it is not up to the parents to decide to forgo child support, as the payments are for the child, not the parent. You are unable to decided someone else's right to support.

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RE: Would you be open to marrying your submissive half? - 6/10/2013 2:38:27 PM   
JeffBC


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From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
Your acquaintance? I'm sure you haven't read all the paper work on his case, but I'm sure he is spitting mad and tells everyone "exactly" what happened. Only problem is that it likely didn't happen that way. Twenty years specifically in family law, I saw a lot more divorces than you and your acquaintance, so I actually know what the laws say, how to read them, interpret them and apply them.

That is, of course, always possible. Given the people in question it is highly unlikely though and the acquaintance in question is a lawyer although not specifically in family law. The judge just fucked up... older guy... not particularly interested in the actual law... more interested in protecting the poor woman. In other words, you're wrong in this case much as I understand why you'd say that. I do agree, however, that one cannot extrapolate based on a tiny slice of examples.

quote:

So while I've no doubt you believe you got "ripped off," and "raked over the coals" in your divorce

Wait... did I say that? I thought I said I understood the rules that I was subject to and pretty much totally agreed with them. I kind of like how California does it at least on the financial side.

quote:

So there is one very simple solution to those of us who are older and have acquired "stuff." It's called a prenuptial agreement.

*nods* In the unlikely event I am needing to get married again I will ask a local lawyer carefully about the legal landscape -- both financially and other ways. So here, I'll modify my statement.

"It's not a smart move for a male to get married in the US without substantial legal input regarding protection from false abuse/rape allegations, protection of assets, and any other pitfalls to being male that the lawyer might point out."

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RE: Would you be open to marrying your submissive half? - 6/10/2013 5:35:29 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

No, absolutely not. Regardless of the fact that I'm currently already married, I would not marry a sub/slave.


Oh dear.

Ishtar, do you think you could explain why, without making yourself look like a dickhead? Thanks in advance.

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RE: Would you be open to marrying your submissive half? - 6/10/2013 6:17:28 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fun2playwith88

Just wondering how many people on here would be open to marrying their submissive partner.


I will only marry a woman who will have me.

(Which already puts her in serious question).

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RE: Would you be open to marrying your submissive half? - 6/10/2013 6:20:24 PM   
Spiritedsub2


Posts: 3316
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Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie


quote:

ORIGINAL: fun2playwith88

Just wondering how many people on here would be open to marrying their submissive partner.


I will only marry a woman who will have me.

(Which already puts her in serious question).

Groucho.

_____________________________

Don’t grieve. Anything you lose comes round in another form.
~ Rumi

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RE: Would you be open to marrying your submissive half? - 6/10/2013 6:28:00 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline 		Just because this acquaintance is an attorney doesn't mean he isn't telling you a once sided story or that his anger is coloring things. Attorneys make THE worst clients. And they are no different than Joe Blow off the street about their divorce. While I'm sure you believe everything an "acquaintance" tells you happened to him, I can assure you that I would bet my life savings there is a whole lot he left out of the story that would be glaringly apparent in the paperwork. But you can continue to believe what you want. But the reason I was as good at my job as I was, was my ability to cut through the bullshit and look at both sides regardless of which side I was supposed to be on.

quote:


quote:


So while I've no doubt you believe you got "ripped off," and "raked over the coals" in your divorce


Wait... did I say that? I thought I said I understood the rules that I was subject to and pretty much totally agreed with them. I kind of like how California does it at least on the financial side.


Please, I may not have quoted your exact words, although that's why they weren't in that nifty little quote box.

quote:


No. I'd still want a life-long committed relationship but the legal landscape for marriage has just become way too hostile towards men. I would never marry again (under US law anyway).


Upon being told that California was actually "hostile" to people who worked, not specifically men (which is also quite false), your response:

quote:


That does not match my experience in California....... So I'm afraid you're going to need to work prety hard to sell me on legal equality in family law.


Now you want to say you AGREE with those laws? Cut me a break.

As for asking an attorney, I would recommend you speak with your "acquaintance."

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RE: Would you be open to marrying your submissive half? - 6/10/2013 7:01:03 PM   
kalikshama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: fun2playwith88
Just wondering how many people on here would be open to marrying their submissive partner.

No. I'd still want a life-long committed relationship but the legal landscape for marriage has just become way too hostile towards men. I would never marry again (under US law anyway). I'd have to do some research now that I live in Canada.

I wish my answer was different since I'm a marriage guy. But honestly it's just an insane legal risk for no reason.



That's interesting, Jeff. During my divorce I was the one who was financially screwed. And I mean really screwed!

I think it has more to do with the main income rather than gender.


I got screwed on the value of the house but figured since I was keeping his excellent health insurance I could live with that. Then I got screwed out of that too.


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RE: Would you be open to marrying your submissive half? - 6/10/2013 7:10:26 PM   
kalikshama


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quote:

It's the "I got screwed by the court" comments that make me react. As if judges wake up in the morning and say, "gee... how can I royally screw these people???"


I got screwed because I let my Dom convince me that I didn't return to Massachusetts to the hearing, that my lawyer could represent me...and then she didn't show up either. I don't blame the court or the system.

Recently, I went to court a few times with my friend. He feels screwed by the judge while I thought she made a very fair decision, meeting in the middle.

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RE: Would you be open to marrying your submissive half? - 6/10/2013 7:19:18 PM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
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quote:

Uh huh. How shall I put this delicately? That does not match my experience in California. It sure as hell doesn't match the just recent acquaintance's experience in TX. Did you know that a man is automatically a child abuser if the woman says so? OK, perhaps not in a criminal sense... but enough to have zero custody and be required to make payments and have no visitation rights simply on her accusation. No investigation was ever done. What's there to investigate? We all know that women only lie about abuse 2% of the time, right? Oh, and when it came out that she had lied nobody felt any need to ... you know... throw her in jail. In point of fact nobody even felt the need to reverse the judgement based on the claim of child abuse. So I'm afraid you're going to need to work prety hard to sell me on legal equality in family law.


I'm too tired to go into the details but here in MA there was an accusation against a man, an investigation, and a Not Supported finding. It was quite a comprehensive investigation, which included speaking to me, who knows the children, but not the accused.

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RE: Would you be open to marrying your submissive half? - 6/10/2013 7:30:02 PM   
wittynamehere


Posts: 759
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fun2playwith88
Just wondering how many people on here would be open to marrying their submissive partner.

Neither of us have any need/desire to get the government involved in our relationship, so our answer is 'no'.

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RE: Would you be open to marrying your submissive half? - 6/10/2013 7:44:57 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		I think I now see why I see marriage so different than everyone else here. For me it's not a government thing. That's just a civil union. A marriage is what two people do as a covenant between them and their God. You don't need a piece of paper for that. That government piece of paper is just the legalities of a civil union. I don't consider that a marriage-just a civil union.


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