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[Poll]

Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor


He is a Hero
  42% (17)
He is a Traitor
  20% (8)
He is something in between
  37% (15)


Total Votes : 40
(last vote on : 6/18/2013 7:07:55 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/16/2013 3:41:15 PM   
KittyDeVille


Posts: 37
Joined: 4/20/2012
Status: offline 		If Snowden was Russian and has fled with info to the USA, he would have been called something else, not a traitor or coward.
The fact that he has fled to HK doesnt mean anything to me, the message he has given is much more important, then speaking of treason.
He doesnt lie, the agencies do. I find it rather hilarious, fleeing from the land of the free and the brave to a state of communistic China.


(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/16/2013 3:47:53 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

but why assume what america does is morally just and right


You see I don't have to assume as long as it follows the Constitution. That is what our government and society is based on... anything within those mandates is lawful...but not necessarily wise. In this case it is moral and right and wise. Please help me to understand... what is immoral about gathering information on terrorists? I can understand the debate on privacy...but not morality.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/16/2013 3:51:27 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to permbondagebabe)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/16/2013 3:49:41 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		In Russia he would not be a hero... and anyone saying he was could very well be in big trouble. You can say what you please about it here with no fear of reprisal....that is the difference

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to KittyDeVille)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/16/2013 4:02:24 PM   
erieangel


Posts: 2237
Joined: 6/19/2011
Status: offline 		But if he were Russian and ran to the US with Russian secrets, he would be a hero to us...
even the US government would not consider him a traitor to his country because we have never considered turn coats who tell state secrets about other countries traitors.

You see, one man's traitor IS another man's hero just as one man's terrorist IS another man's freedom fighter. It all has to do with perspective.


(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/16/2013 4:05:15 PM   
permbondagebabe


Posts: 9
Joined: 4/18/2013
Status: offline 		first: what is a terrorist?
second: once identified, is the NSA only targeting terrorists?

per some article the secret court approved more than 19.000 wire taps in half a year.
that's an awful lot of terrorists. even if the number is 2000, it's still a lot.

remember, there are other venues by which the government can get a court to approve wire taps.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/16/2013 4:05:22 PM   
KittyDeVille


Posts: 37
Joined: 4/20/2012
Status: offline 		Like gathering information about people outside the USA is constitutional ? What is lawfull about that ? It is immoral because everyone is innocent until proven guilty. Because I have right, and I want to know when my rights are violated. The USA isnt god, who decides what is right or wrong.
Even if it is constitutionally agreed upon. Laws arent always right or moral.
Terrorist, do you really think that terrorist are not intelligent ? Do you really think it's about them ? I think that terrorists are using pigeons again, not the internet (or highly encrypted) or any form of communication that is interceptible. How much freedom are you willing to give, for fear. Not fear from the ' terrorists ', but the terrorising governments. Because that is what they do, instill fear on people, to tighten their grip.
How many attacks are there proven to be stopped ? It is life, danger and safety. I think the whole terrorist yadayada is just a new kind of red fear, like the commies were.
Apperently the USA needs an enemy, from WO1 on. there is a lot of -insane- profit (not only monetarywise) to be made, by a common enemy.

Yep, you might be able to speak about it, but that is all there is, in the land of the brave and the free. If you are really a whistleblower, you have to fear for your life, sanity and freedom.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/16/2013 4:07:11 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Yes and I'm sure he is a hero to the Chinese... this makes him no less a traitor to me. And if he were Russian no less a traitor to them or any other nation.

Why do you think because he is not a traitor to China that precludes him being a traitor to the US.? Perspective does have all to do with it...as it should.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to erieangel)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/16/2013 4:08:24 PM   
permbondagebabe


Posts: 9
Joined: 4/18/2013
Status: offline 		.... and how do they ensure they are not illegaly tapping an american abroad?

(in reply to KittyDeVille)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/16/2013 4:13:10 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Where do you get such specific information? None has been forthcoming from the Government that I have found... I would like to see a link to verifiable statistics that you are quoting. But assume they are true. How many of the 19,000 were quickly found not to be a threat and the information not acted on?

If a computer were to search perhaps billions of records and kicked out 19,000 I would say that was a very small amount. And further... of those 19,000 please tell me what injury did they receive?

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to permbondagebabe)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/16/2013 4:15:24 PM   
permbondagebabe


Posts: 9
Joined: 4/18/2013
Status: offline 		Whilst FISA does not elaborate on individual cases, the numbers are on public record.
The only thing they admit. You need to search the web and you will find it.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/16/2013 4:17:51 PM   
permbondagebabe


Posts: 9
Joined: 4/18/2013
Status: offline 		Link with reports
http://epic.org/privacy/terrorism/fisa/fisc.html

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/16/2013 4:18:04 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Like gathering information


Gathering information is not immoral... the actions you may take could be. Again as I've asked above...tell me what injury you have received by the US monitoring known terrorists information and passing it along to other countries like Germany to safe lives. Then monitoring who these terrorists contact in our country to do the same.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to KittyDeVille)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/16/2013 4:20:54 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

but why assume what america does is morally just and right


You see I don't have to assume as long as it follows the Constitution. That is what our government and society is based on... anything within those mandates is lawful...but not necessarily wise. In this case it is moral and right and wise. Please help me to understand... what is immoral about gathering information on terrorists? I can understand the debate on privacy...but not morality.

Butch

Try watching the Youtube video on the Dave Champion show.

He is blowing the whistle - not because it the terrorists, but it's because it is tearing away your fundamental rights to freedom and privacy... and that's everyone, not just terrorists.
And incidentally, the whole interview with the UK newspaper that made it public, he didn't actually mention terrorists at all - not one single word about them. It was exposing the truth about gathering info and intel on everyone in the US and as much of the world as they can.
In essence, your government and the NSA were not following your own constitution.
And that's the whole crux of his idea to be a whistle-blower.

If it were just targetting the terrorists, I'd say he was possibly a traitor.
But.... he gave up his whole cushy life in the US because he could no longer live and work in the job he was employed at for 10 years because the government (and the NSA) were breaching citizen's fundamental rights and privacy.
With that in mind, I'd say he was a hero, no matter where he fled to.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/16/2013 4:24:02 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Your link means nothing... it is epic...who the hell are they. As for as investigations are concerned I am all for them...maybe it would be wise for you to wait until they bare fruit before assigning guilt.

Again as Bob Schieffer said, if you even bothered to listen to him... Our elected officials should and will be held accountable...if there have been laws broken... but this does not make Snowden a hero.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to permbondagebabe)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/16/2013 4:24:05 PM   
KittyDeVille


Posts: 37
Joined: 4/20/2012
Status: offline 		I dont know who was one of those 19000 inqueries, but suppose I was, it is violating my rights to privacy. I want to be able to delete a message, when I want to, I want to be able to make a phoneconversation, and pretend it didnt happen. I dont want it to be saved somewhere.

Because I didnt receive an injury, doesnt make it right.
There isnt much of a pro USA emotion in Europe, au contraire, there is a very critical one among the people. I am just as critical of the USA lapdog attitude of the dutch government.
The bombing in what was it, Boston city isnt intercepted by those agencies. The schoolshootings arent prevented. So they arent flawless and also lacking or are that incedents just casualties ?

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/16/2013 4:27:11 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Name one person other than a terrorists that the gathered information was used against.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/16/2013 4:28:01 PM   
permbondagebabe


Posts: 9
Joined: 4/18/2013
Status: offline 		you answer is why subs lose respect from Doms

http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/fisa/#rept

A little click and you see the annual reports in PDF.
But you need to be right, always, no matter how wrong you are.

< Message edited by permbondagebabe -- 6/16/2013 4:30:13 PM >

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/16/2013 4:30:05 PM   
KittyDeVille


Posts: 37
Joined: 4/20/2012
Status: offline 		Is it all, that you can ask for or hang onto the term traitor or no injury, with the given responses ?

(in reply to permbondagebabe)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/16/2013 4:36:18 PM   
igor2003


Posts: 1718
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Name one person other than a terrorists that the gathered information was used against.

Butch


So what you are saying is that as long as no non-terrorist American citizen is harmed you think it is okay for the US government to break laws and foul the Constitution in the name of "fighting terrorism"?

_____________________________

If the women don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy. - Red Green

At my age erections are like cops...there's never one around when you need it!

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(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/16/2013 4:38:26 PM   
KittyDeVille


Posts: 37
Joined: 4/20/2012
Status: offline 		The ultimate power we have as the people, free speech is getting raped. Like the internet is getting raped soon, because this is the most powerfull tool we have as the people.
In seconds, we can organisize a protest, in seconds the news of treason from the USA government is known. In seconds you could throw a party, with thousands of partypeople, In seconds we know that Kanye and Kim have a daughter, in seconds we have a viral and the sales are rising.

In seconds.....that is power...and they (the government) are scared....in seconds revolutions started in the middle east and northern africa.....
They shit their pants....big time.

(in reply to KittyDeVille)
Profile   Post #: 40
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