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[Poll]

Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor

He is a Hero

42% (17)

He is a Traitor

20% (8)

He is something in between

37% (15)

Total Votes : 40

(last vote on : 6/18/2013 7:07:55 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )

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RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/18/2013 7:46:55 AM

Zonie63

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I voted that he's something in between. I don't think he's a traitor, although that would depend on one's definition of "traitor."

Were Woodward and Bernstein "traitors"? Or, perhaps government officials who violate their oath of office can be said to have betrayed their oath, and thus, "traitors."

"Traitor" is a fun word to throw around, depending on one's perspective.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I think it comes down to are we as a nation naïve. Do we think that a war…any war… can be fought without secrecy? Must we be privy to all secret operations that by there very nature MUST be secret in order to have any usefulness? What would that have meant during WWII…could we have won?

I think it depends on what kinds of secrets there are and how long they're kept. Obviously, there had to be tight security around the construction of the atomic bomb, along with any other factories for new weapons, ships, tanks, planes, etc. Any invasion plans (like the Normandy landings) would have to be kept secret and known to only a few people.

But then again, the war itself was no secret. Everyone knew we were at war and who the enemy was. There was no secrecy or ambiguity about that at all.

Of course, we did other things during World War II for security reasons, such as locking up Japanese-Americans, severely restricting immigration, wiretapping of American citizens (which is how J. Edgar Hoover gained so much power). Could we still have won without doing those things? And unlike subsequent wars, our plan was to actually win World War II. Americans could actually trust that their leadership was working towards that goal, so they accepted secrecy and temporary limitations on civil liberties.

The objectives were clear, and our demand for unconditional surrender left little room for ambiguity or the famous "gray area" often cited by national security apologists.

quote:

I think secrecy is essential but this secrecy must be tempered with checks and oversight of elected officials and be within our Constitution. I believe in this case that is exactly what is happening.

I would have nothing against whistle blowers exposing actions of or government that are illegal…against the Constitution, or even against our moral fiber as a nation. As an example I believe the water boarding of prisoners and holding them without due process is wrong if not exactly illegal.

Butch

Again, I think it depends on the kinds of secrets being kept. If we're talking about actual military technology, hardware, or plans of attack, then that's one thing. I don't think that methods of domestic policing (which is what this is) fall into that category. There's a reason why our foreign intelligence gathering agencies were kept separate and distinct from our domestic service, unlike the Soviets who used the KGB for both foreign and domestic operations.

Personally, I think government secrecy is overrated. It makes one wonder if the government is using secrecy and national security properly and solely with good intentions - or if it's just to keep the American people from finding out about government improprieties. It also depends on whether there's an actual, verifiable threat to American soil, or if the government is engaging in operations solely for the sake of economic interests. If it turns out that the government is spying on its own people just so the wealthy oil companies can earn higher profits, then I would consider that to be an illegitimate use of our national security apparatus.

There's also the question of whether or not these "experts" in our government can properly assess any potential threats. They sure dropped the ball on 9/11, and all of these countries which we now consider "threats" were once U.S. allies. Is it really about America's national security, or is it just a big geopolitical game of international intrigue and cloak-and-dagger? Is there some kind of covert, international "mafia war" taking place? That's what it seems like.

Seriously, if there really is a threat to our national security, then why not deal with it openly? Declare war and openly invade whatever country is giving us a problem. That's what we did in World War II, demanding nothing less than unconditional surrender from our enemies. If our "experts" are too afraid to do that, then all this eavesdropping on the American people seems pretty cowardly and mousy on their part. Do we want cowards to be in the job of protecting us?

(in reply to kdsub)

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RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/18/2013 10:09:01 AM

Dyfrynt

Posts: 202
Joined: 4/19/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I think the you are wrong in your assessment of the American people... They are not apathetic about their freedoms just pragmatic. I believe most are wondering what all the hullabaloo is about because they assumed this information gathering was going on all along. They understand it... and want it... if it saves lives in a war.

Of course this is my opinion again.

ps...No freedoms or rights are being given up...remember the Constitution is being followed and old Ben would approve I'll bet.

Butch

My friend, have you been paying any attention to what the past two Presidential governments have done in direct contravention of the Constitution? Bush and Obama act like following the Constitution is voluntary.

Examples.

How about the right to free speech. 1st Amendment. Stating that the government is acting illegally is NOT the same thing as giving up secret information that can harm our country.

How about the right to be protected from unreasonable searches and seizures. 4th Amendment. The government is compiling telephone and internet data and storing it indefinitely on every single person in this country.

How about the right to not be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law. 5th Amendment. Any American can find themselves immediately held without any warrant and with no due process, if the magical term "terrorist" is branded upon them.

Even more seriously, Drones are used to target Americans in war zones if they are believed to be working with the enemy. A belief is not proof, and it is most certainly not due process.

How about a right to a speedy trial. 6th Amendment. Gitmo. Nuff said.

How about the right to be safe from cruel and unusual punishment. 8th Amendment. Waterboarding anyone?

I could go on and on. None of the above transgressions have been used as an effort to save lives in a war. (Although on the last one, the advocates of torture continue to insist it has done so, but with no supporting proof to substantiate their claim).

You have your right to your opinion, of course. I believe Ol' Ben and the rest of the Founding Fathers, if they could look at this country today, would be appalled at how cavalierly our Constitution has been trampled upon and how shamefully the people have been in sitting by and allowing it to happen.

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RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/18/2013 1:50:37 PM

pahunkboy

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Dyf:

Bravo on an excellent post.

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RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/22/2013 1:50:28 AM

descrite

Posts: 459
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Every generation, we have cowards who point at a topical Goldstein, and explain that this is why we need to cede power to the gub'mint.

It's been the Reds a few times. Mexicans many times (Pancho Villa was invoked to a vast degree, as reason why children as far north as the states bordering Canada were under dire threat). The Japs (which even led us to putting American citizens in concentration camps; I once worked for a woman born in one)-- and the most realistic thing they did was bomb two of our states. A dozen different South and Central American entities. Drugs. Global warming. The North Koreans. The North Vietnamese. The heathen Chinee (more than once). The Irish. The Jew. The scary, scary Ghey. Secularism. Alcohol. Germans, a couple times. Blackity-Black-Blacks. Puetro Ricans (who succesfully shot up Congress, killed people in an attempt to attack the White House and the President, and put an RPG into an FBI office). Elvis. Ay-rabs.

Amazingly, America has endured. Usually in spite of what we do to protect ourselves from any particular Snowball, not because of it.

I've been in uniform. I was a mile and a half from the Pentagon on 9/11, working security for the DoD, with a pretty significant set of security clearances.

I am not afraid of any enemy bombing us. Give me a hundred Pearl Harbors. A thousand 9/11s.

First off, I not hampered by an inability to do math. I know that we kill as many Americans, on our own, each MONTH as the terrorists did on 9/11. I know that, man for man, nobody kills Americans like Americans-- McVeigh killed more, per capita, than the 19 attackers (and even more if we consider all Al Qaeda co-conspirators supporting them, bringing down their kill-count per man).

Second, I value my freedom more than my life. Maybe I'm stupid. Maybe I'm just missing something that should cause me to fear certain things...but I have no fear of someone attacking me. I have lots of fear of my government imprisoning me, torturing me, lighting me on fire, depriving me of my rights, and generally abusing every power I've ever given them.

The White House has been shot up numerous times. A plane has slammed into it, and two other guys (both native-born citizens) have tried to do the same thing-- one with a helicopter. It's been burned down. A guy threatened to blow up the Washington Monument before he got popped in the head as I watched on live TV. Another guy drove a tractor into the Reflecting Pool and threatened to blow up the Jefferson Memorial. The Pentagon has been bombed by Americans. Some guy attacked the Constitution with a hammer. We've had numerous Presidents assassinated, shot, and otherwise attacked (I once shared a ski lift with the man who took the gun from a woman named "Squeaky"-- small world).

Oddly, America has endured. And, actually, we don't really care.

Sorry-- have to say that again, for the irony: attacked the Constitution. With a hammer.

And the US Army has gassed American veterans and their families, killing at least one baby in the process. A tank rolled into a Texan ranch, again live on TV, and over 90 children burned alive. FBI snipers killed an American woman and her American child in an effort to capture a guy who an FBI informant talked into modifying a gun. American farmers hung people who wanted milk and jobs. Unionists have done extraordinarily bad things to lots and lots of people. We've killed 100,000 Iraqis because some other Middle Easterners killed 3,000 of us.

The country keeps going. I am not afraid of the Fear Of The Month: I am afraid of the government, which has demonstrated an ability to harm more Americans than any other entity. I am afraid of Americans, who have been the only entity to cook off a nuke in anger (admittedly, other WMDs have been used by terror groups: Japanese and Indian religious groups, specifically, and some unknown entities who we've never captured because all our surveillance seems incapable of finding anthrax attackers).

I don't want my government operating on fear. I don't want to live in fear. I am not afraid of someone who wants to kill or shoot or maim me. I'd prefer my government small, ineffectual, and largely purposeless.

I guess I'm just not a coward.

I don't know when Americans became such fucking pussies.

(in reply to pahunkboy)

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