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[Poll]

Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor


He is a Hero
  42% (17)
He is a Traitor
  20% (8)
He is something in between
  37% (15)


Total Votes : 40
(last vote on : 6/18/2013 7:07:55 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/16/2013 7:36:41 PM   
littlewonder


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quote:

I think it comes down to are we as a nation naïve.


I think Americans are one of the most naive group of people in the world.



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Everything has changed

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RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/16/2013 8:21:51 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

Well, Hitler passed a "law" that "The Final Solution" was the way for Germany to go. Was that moral? Hardly.


And this has anything to do with this thread how?

Butch


< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/16/2013 8:23:14 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/16/2013 8:56:48 PM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Well, Hitler passed a "law" that "The Final Solution" was the way for Germany to go. Was that moral? Hardly.


And this has anything to do with this thread how?

Butch



Reading my whole post would have given you the answer. It had to do with showing that just because something's a law, doesn't make it right or moral.

Again; reading the whole post would have put it into context. Just choosing one little snippet doesn't do the trick but, it has become apparent (to me, anyway) that even though you keep saying you don't particularly care one way or the other, you do, indeed, have a dog in this fight.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

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A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

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Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/16/2013 11:32:26 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		His arguments are always circular...lol.... the Constitution is just a set of laws that include those things we have said are not "just, right or moral"

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
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Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/17/2013 3:40:28 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Politesub you do not know...and neither do I exactly how and in what manner information is gathered. If they are voluntarily giving up info then it is your institutions not ours at fault would you not say?

There is much debate in America about what constitutes privacy and I'm sure world wide as well and it may be outside the direction of this thread and deserves a separate one. I think it would make a great discussion. For instance... how much privacy can be demanded when you put information on a public network. Knowing that it is not secure by any universal law or treaty. It would be akin to me screaming my private business out the door and expecting my neighbors not to hear and if they do expecting them to forget what I said....if you get my drift. It certainly would not be illegal for them to listen and act if they deemed it necessary.

Butch


You made the claim it was freely available. I pointed out it wasnt, so why do you now change track ? The institutions concerened were said to be Google Microsoft AOL, all the usual UK companies.

And it is illegal under current EU Law......... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Data_Protection_Regulation


(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/17/2013 10:52:33 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		If you had read all of my posts you would see where I agree with you. I hate repeating for people that don't read posts as they should before commenting

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/17/2013 10:56:05 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		If i ask and you freely give then it is freely available. How is that changing tact?

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/17/2013 11:04:58 AM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
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From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

If you had read all of my posts you would see where I agree with you. I hate repeating for people that don't read posts as they should before commenting



I must have been confuzzled by your OP:

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

<snip>There has been much discussion about Edward Snowden. I personally described him as a traitor and still believe he is exactly that even if he does not mean to be one. </snip>

Butch



That is not how I view Mr. Snowden so we do not agree (on this issue).



Peace and comfort,



Michael

_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/17/2013 1:38:00 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KittyDeVille

The USA has no right or jurisdiction in Europe. That alone makes it illegal.
Simple as that.




Actually we do.

(in reply to KittyDeVille)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/17/2013 2:11:56 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

free speech is getting raped


How.... name any free speech that has been denied by this program.... name one person injured.

Butch

Ok Butch, try this for size....

Any whistle-blower that opened his mouth *should* be welcomed with open arms because they are showing that some people are breaking laws and potentially endangering lives.
But..... Any whistle-blower that dares to mention anything to do with the government can only do so in fear of his life because they will immediately revoke his freedom.

Take a look at the Dave Champion show I mentioned.
Your so-called 'judiciary' is nothing more than a farce.
They break the constitution with permission from who??
Members of their own fucking office - that's who!!
It's NOT a proper court or judiciary process at all.

You are beeing fooled big time.
That's what the government like - good little boys who don't do the homework and just swallow their lies without question.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/17/2013 2:21:55 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

And, a law doesnt make it just or moral....and then we start the circulair reasoning from you again.


You have not explained to me yet how gathering information is immoral. Information is information it either is or is not...nothing moral or immoral about it... It is what it is.

Butch

Everyone has a right to a certain amount of privacy - that's inherent.

So, unless you have a damned good reason to be easvesdropping on my telephone calls, or viewing my emails, or screening my post, or watching my every move... then you are in breach of a privacy law or three.

If the info is freely available, I would agree.
But 99.97% of it is gathered against the wishes and will or permission of the people involved, then just gathering this info is also illegal.

If you decided to spy on your neighbour, are you free and able to do so without impunity?
Are you then able to act on that info - also with impunuty??
The answer is a solid NO! Because you'd be breaking your constitutional laws.
So why is it ok for a government office to do the self-same thing and it's ok??
Fuck off!!     Where's your logic??


< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 6/17/2013 2:22:23 PM >

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/17/2013 2:26:57 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: KittyDeVille

The USA has no right or jurisdiction in Europe. That alone makes it illegal.
Simple as that.

Actually we do.


Actually, you don't.
You have no legal jurisdiction outside of your own borders and territories.
That's the same for every country.
If you want a fellon outside of the USA, you have to go ask the country he's in to give him up to you.
You aren't allowed to just pick him up and walk out with him.

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/17/2013 2:32:18 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

quote:

I think it comes down to are we as a nation naïve.


I think Americans are one of the most naive group of people in the world.



Now that is funny. Bill does get one off now and then. Americans are dumb but worse...likely not the dumbest.

(in reply to littlewonder)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/17/2013 2:51:26 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Any whistle-blower that opened his mouth *should* be welcomed with open arms because they are showing that some people are breaking laws and potentially endangering lives.


Here is where you and Snowden are wrong.... There were no laws broken and HE is endangering lives... And HE is the one that broke an oath and that is why he may be in trouble.

See the difference?

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/17/2013 2:57:56 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

So, unless you have a damned good reason to be easvesdropping on my telephone calls, or viewing my emails, or screening my post, or watching my every move... then you are in breach of a privacy law or three.


Why is it so hard for you and others to understand?
They are not watching you or listening to you or reading your emails.

All the collected info is not read except by judicial warrant only if they can show you are involved in ONLY terrorist activities.

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/17/2013 3:01:08 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Any whistle-blower that opened his mouth *should* be welcomed with open arms because they are showing that some people are breaking laws and potentially endangering lives.


Here is where you and Snowden are wrong.... There were no laws broken and HE is endangering lives... And HE is the one that broke an oath and that is why he may be in trouble.

See the difference?

Butch

No, I don't.

HE is blowing the whistle on YOUR GOVERNMENT and the NSA breaking the constition a billion times every single day.

So he broke an oath.
And your guys ruling the country and making the laws are breaking your own constitution.
Which is the biggest crime?
The criminals or the one breaking the silence?

You think that's ok do you??
I certainly don't, and I don't even live there! 

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/17/2013 3:28:59 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

If i ask and you freely give then it is freely available. How is that changing tact?

Butch


You are skirting the issue by playing with words. My emails are NOT freely given to anyone except the recipient.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/17/2013 3:35:02 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

So, unless you have a damned good reason to be easvesdropping on my telephone calls, or viewing my emails, or screening my post, or watching my every move... then you are in breach of a privacy law or three.


Why is it so hard for you and others to understand?
They are not watching you or listening to you or reading your emails.

All the collected info is not read except by judicial warrant only if they can show you are involved in ONLY terrorist activities.

But they are gathering all sorts of info that is supposed to be private!
They scan and photograph every piece of mail.
They are eavesdropping on telephone conversations.
And they are tracking all of your internet activity - including emails.
They are getting details from your bank and any transactions you make, anywhere.
And that's not including all the info they get from the 50 or so companies that hit the news (and god knows how many others that didn't get made public).

They are infringing privacy laws all the time - all day, every day.
Most of the info they are gathering is illegal to do so without due judicial process or consent.

And who issues these "warrants"???
Their own department does!!
It does NOT go through a normal judicial process.
What they are doing IS illegal under US law.

Try looking at the youtube video. lol.
Dave explains everything in there.
I am not going to try and explain a 43 minute video on here.

You are one of those who swallowed the bait wholesale.

None so blind as those that don't want to see. 

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/17/2013 4:50:53 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

HE is blowing the whistle on YOUR GOVERNMENT and the NSA breaking the constition a billion times every single day


Just because you say so does not make it true...Unless something different comes out from the investigations there is nothing in this information gathering against the law or Constitution.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor - 6/17/2013 4:54:28 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

You are skirting the issue by playing with words. My emails are NOT freely given to anyone except the recipient.


I am not playing with words...it is your government and your internet provider that is freely giving access to your information...Unless I am mistaken the latest releases on this story of revelations from Snowden say the UK has its own programs mirroring ours and we cooperate.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 80
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