RE: Slave Rights (Full Version)

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Caretakr -> RE: Slave Rights (6/27/2006 11:00:47 AM)

I understand the confusion over this,if I may.........

Historical slavery was imposed from without, by a societal system that supported it as an institution. As we have progressed socially,this system has been abolished-becomeing illegal to practice.

The slavery practiced these days has to find a work around to this-so it has evolved as an internal enslavment by those who feel the need to submit unconditionally to one who will meet thier particular needs for a framework in which it can find expression.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Slave Rights (6/27/2006 11:58:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Caretakr
The slavery practiced these days has to find a work around to this-so it has evolved as an internal enslavment by those who feel the need to submit unconditionally to one who will meet thier particular needs for a framework in which it can find expression.

It's not unconditional.

The "meet their particular needs" is a condition right there.

But I agree with the general post.

And Owned- I agree, I never had a talk over "what do you define as limits/rights/privileges" discussion either with my ex's.  But I also think for novices who make assumptions and say things like "I have no limits" without really knowing what that means, it's an important concept to understand and internalize.

I'd hate for a person to go into a slavery situation thinking that they would be able to vote in the next election as it's a "normal right" and then find out that they were not going to be allowed to do so.



Lashra -> RE: Slave Rights (6/27/2006 12:01:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelGA2

i was just talking to a friend from CM and the topic popped up about slave rights. i was always told a slave has only two imalienable rights:

1. the right to beg for a collar
2. the right to beg for release

is my information incorrect?


To my way of thinking this is what separates a slave from a sub. A slave has no other rights unless the Owner chooses to allow him/her more.

~Lashra
Whipping asses since 1981



IronBear -> RE: Slave Rights (6/27/2006 12:39:29 PM)

Were it not for the custom of the Gorean Lifestyle to which I adhere, I'd not use the term slavery for it surely has caused much debate and confusion when compared to the original and historical concept of slavery (sic Roman Period). The term I would in all probability use would be Bondage. This would probably be closer to the original Apprenticeships without the graduation exit after a time period... Such a system would have explicitly defined peramatures and requirements much like what I use for a kajira today. In some ways it is similar to a more traditional Apprentice Bondage model which I have experimented with for a Magickal Apprentice (Not Pagan, not Wiccan, not Lodge, but purely a Sorcorer's Apprentice ~ No outside ties family or otherwise, just answerable in all things to me and loyal only unto me.) Ahh well we'll not see the term slavery being changed I think, so it is but a rose by another name....



Hawksgirldove -> RE: Slave Rights (6/27/2006 1:28:24 PM)

I do identify as an owned slave. In the house in which i serve, i have only and all of the rights the Master of the house allows me.

I had the right to beg collar, and the right to beg release. I have the right to choose to obey or disobey. I have the right to accept the consequence for disobedience. I have the right to a check book, (for household expencses) driving the family car for running errands, the right to expcet to be fed, clothed and sheltered, cared for, to choose my own spirituality, and practice accordingly, and any and all other rights and priveldeges he allows.



Caretakr -> RE: Slave Rights (6/27/2006 1:37:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: Caretakr
The slavery practiced these days has to find a work around to this-so it has evolved as an internal enslavment by those who feel the need to submit unconditionally to one who will meet thier particular needs for a framework in which it can find expression.

It's not unconditional.

The "meet their particular needs" is a condition right there.

But I agree with the general post.

And Owned- I agree, I never had a talk over "what do you define as limits/rights/privileges" discussion either with my ex's.  But I also think for novices who make assumptions and say things like "I have no limits" without really knowing what that means, it's an important concept to understand and internalize.

I'd hate for a person to go into a slavery situation thinking that they would be able to vote in the next election as it's a "normal right" and then find out that they were not going to be allowed to do so.


My negotiations consist of outlining the uses I have for a slave,and the responsibilities I self-enforce to keep property in a usable condition. After which it is up to the slave to accept or decline. The limits are all mine-and I will reject any of the slave's, that do not hinge entirely on mental or physical health reasons.

And even if she submits to me, I am still forced to submit to the society I live in.

Needless to say,submissives and myself have no use for each other.[8D]



thisishis -> RE: Slave Rights (6/27/2006 1:55:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelGA2

i was just talking to a friend from CM and the topic popped up about slave rights. i was always told a slave has only two imalienable rights:

1. the right to beg for a collar
2. the right to beg for release

is my information incorrect?

i would say that for 'some' it would be correct & for some others it would be incorrect.
Every situation (and agreement between an Owner and it's slave) has it's differences.
 
For my Master, the information would be incorrect.
1. i never begged for His collar. i was never expected to beg for His collar. It was for Him to decide whether or not i was/am worthy of His collar. He gave me the collar and directed me to 'wear it at all times'... i thanked Him, and have.
2. As His slave, i have no right to beg for release. i'm His property, until the day i die, unless He should decide otherwise.
 
It has been my experience that: The Owner (or Dom or Domme .. or Master ... or whatever you wish to call the person who the slave belongs to) decides what their slave is afforded as rights, or priviledges, (or both or none at all). Prior to becoming that Owner's slave, the prospective slave accepts that prospective owner's right to decide whatever the slave is or is not entitled to .... if anything at all.
 
me personally: i'm a slave. my Owner doesn't wish for me to beg. He doesn't like me to beg. It would displease Him. As with anything .... this is subject to change, as it is His right to change anything He wishes to .. including His preferences and/or decisions .. with little or no notice to me.
 
i don't have rights as His slave. i do have whichever priviledges He has chosen to afford me.



OsideGirl -> RE: Slave Rights (6/27/2006 2:39:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wulfchyld

Exactly what they negotiate.


Thank you!!!!!!! It's nice to see some common sense here.



thisishis -> RE: Slave Rights (6/27/2006 3:09:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Caretakr

I understand the confusion over this,if I may.........

Historical slavery was imposed from without, by a societal system that supported it as an institution. As we have progressed socially,this system has been abolished-becomeing illegal to practice.

The slavery practiced these days has to find a work around to this-so it has evolved as an internal enslavment by those who feel the need to submit unconditionally to one who will meet thier particular needs for a framework in which it can find expression.
For some perhaps, and not [entirely] in the case of this slave.
 
For my case, the 'to one who will meet thier particular needs' is omitted.
In my case, He decides what His slave's needs are not His slave. He decides what He will do, or not do, and how He does ... or does not etc ect ....
Key point being, "He decides..". For some, the right to negotiations cease at the point of being owned as a slave. 



JessicaLashes -> RE: Slave Rights (6/27/2006 5:54:44 PM)

a slave has the right to express his hard limits and hear mine

to cry and begg for me mercy

safeword when ever he wants, but only if he has asked for a safeword

and leave when ever he wants. 

but if he wants to be my slave i want obediance honesty and availability for when i want to have fun or he is gone

subs and slave are terms that every one who writes me seems to have their own definition


quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelGA2

i was just talking to a friend from CM and the topic popped up about slave rights. i was always told a slave has only two imalienable rights:

1. the right to beg for a collar
2. the right to beg for release

is my information incorrect?




LadiesBladewing -> RE: Slave Rights (6/27/2006 6:20:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelGA2

what are the rights of non Gorean slaves?


The rights of our servants are exactly those rights which we allow them to retain. Technically, it is this way with any D/s relationship, which is why it is so important to spend time talking to the one who will hold the keys to that collar.

In our household, our servants have the right to have their questions answered, have their growth nurtured, have their strengths and weaknesses properly evaluated, have their rules be clear, to have their discipline be swift and just, to be given the opportunity to be used to their full capacity, and to have consideration of their place among us handled in a way that respects both the vulnerability of their humanity and the strength of their immanent divine connection.

Aside from that, everything is considered according to the good of the enclave as a whole. A servant who is not thriving in our household brings the entire household into distress. A servant who is thriving raises the strength and dignity of the entire house.

Our servants are human beings first -- servants second. We, as leaders of the enclave, are -still- human beings first, and leaders second. The greatest right that all of us share is the right to have our humanity, and the potential of that humanity respected and cherished. It sounds like sunshine and roses, but in truth, it is a great deal of work -- and it has given us the pleasure of some of the most dedicated, strongest servants I have had the pleasure of encountering -- and some of the most dedicated and capable leaders I have had the pleasure of working with, across many venues.

ZWD



Caretakr -> RE: Slave Rights (6/27/2006 6:27:55 PM)

And yet,when he decides-I merit that he understands that his stewardship must be a responsible one-or you would not still be there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thisishis

quote:

ORIGINAL: Caretakr

I understand the confusion over this,if I may.........

Historical slavery was imposed from without, by a societal system that supported it as an institution. As we have progressed socially,this system has been abolished-becomeing illegal to practice.

The slavery practiced these days has to find a work around to this-so it has evolved as an internal enslavment by those who feel the need to submit unconditionally to one who will meet thier particular needs for a framework in which it can find expression.
For some perhaps, and not [entirely] in the case of this slave.
 
For my case, the 'to one who will meet thier particular needs' is omitted.
In my case, He decides what His slave's needs are not His slave. He decides what He will do, or not do, and how He does ... or does not etc ect ....
Key point being, "He decides..". For some, the right to negotiations cease at the point of being owned as a slave. 



ownedgirlie -> RE: Slave Rights (6/27/2006 6:35:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

the idea of designating "rights" to a slave in the context of the laws of the land are always going to be at oppostion to the laws of Master, unless we somehow magically gain the right to enter into a Master/slave relationship.  therefore, as a group devoid of legal recognition, we have only the rights our owners allow us to have, unless we wake up one morning and decide that the law of the land is more important than Master's law or our spiritual beliefs,.


Absolutely loved your words here, beth.  When the laws of the land become more important than the laws of the Master, I am no longer my Master's slave.

quote:


I'd hate for a person to go into a slavery situation thinking that they would be able to vote in the next election as it's a "normal right" and then find out that they were not going to be allowed to do so.


LA, to that I impress upon anyone considering submitting totally to another, to learn the person you are submitting to first.  I was an endless supply of questions to my Master.  Did he care what spiritual beliefs I had?  Political beliefs?  Etc.?  Would I be allowed to vote?  Go to work?  Go to church?  Spend time with family?  So many things were discussed.  And because it is impossible to cover every scenario imaginable, one must really learn the Dominant as well as it is possible, to understand his/her ways of thinking, philosophies, ethics, beliefs...  Only then can a potential slave really understand what he or she is getting into, and how a particular Master or Mistress may run the slave's life.  The things critical to one's values or moral beliefs should always be discussed beforehand.  That avoids the unpleasant mess of any sudden surprises, ie; "What do you mean I can't have my family over for dinner every Sunday??"

One can only hope a good Master/Mistress clearly educates the slave of his/her expectations, values and principles before taking the slave on as property.



ownedgirlie -> RE: Slave Rights (6/27/2006 6:38:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BreakMeShakeMe

[sm=argue.gif]                [sm=banghead.gif]             [sm=m23.gif]


Careful girl, you can give yourself a headache this way [;)]



thisishis -> RE: Slave Rights (6/27/2006 7:45:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Caretakr

And yet,when he decides-I merit that he understands that his stewardship must be a responsible one-or you would not still be there.
No, when directed at me, that is a statement that is only half correct.
He's responsible.
i'd remain here with Him, as His slave, if he were not.
 
i didn't enter into an agreement of absolute and consensual slavery on a whim.
i entered with the full understanding that there very well may be instances and occasions when i may not agree at all, or entirely with what He deems as being the best choices.
i also entered understanding that i am expected to accept His choices regardless.
i have and i do.... even when i do not like them and even when i 'feel' that i am suffering as a result of those choices. Although i will also be the first to admit that when i 'feel' as such, my feelings are unwarranted.... even if it takes me a few days to realize it for myself.
It's beside the point though, in that, for myself, as His slave i don't view running off or seeking release as an honorable option. i'm much more dedicated to my Master than that.
 
 
i'm lucky that He is responsible in the choices that He makes. i'd still be here just the same if He were not.



gooddogbenji -> RE: Slave Rights (6/27/2006 7:51:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelGA2

from all that i've heard, learned and read, slaves, once collared, surrender all rights and belong fully to their Master/Mistress. the only right they have remaining is the right to beg for release. slaves aren't allowed limits either, as far as i've heard.



Got here and had to comment.

If we define a slave as someone who has only the right to beg for release, and assume in order to become a slave they have to beg for the collar, and consider that a slave wearing a collar will not beg for another, then yes, their only 2 rights are to beg for the collar and beg for their release. 

If you define a house as a dwelling with 3 bedrooms, then all houses have 3 bedrooms.

Yours,


benji



ownedgirlie -> RE: Slave Rights (6/27/2006 7:52:45 PM)

Thisishis, loved your post.  There were things in there which I needed to read tonight.  Thank you.



Caretakr -> RE: Slave Rights (6/27/2006 7:57:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thisishis

quote:

ORIGINAL: Caretakr

And yet,when he decides-I merit that he understands that his stewardship must be a responsible one-or you would not still be there.
No, when directed at me, that is a statement that is only half correct.
He's responsible.
i'd remain here with Him, as His slave, if he were not.
 
i didn't enter into an agreement of absolute and consensual slavery on a whim.
i entered with the full understanding that there very well may be instances and occasions when i may not agree at all, or entirely with what He deems as being the best choices.
i also entered understanding that i am expected to accept His choices regardless.
i have and i do.... even when i do not like them and even when i 'feel' that i am suffering as a result of those choices. Although i will also be the first to admit that when i 'feel' as such, my feelings are unwarranted.... even if it takes me a few days to realize it for myself.
It's beside the point though, in that, for myself, as His slave i don't view running off or seeking release as an honorable option. i'm much more dedicated to my Master than that.
 
 
i'm lucky that He is responsible in the choices that He makes. i'd still be here just the same if He were not.


Wonderful! Then you have managed to do something very few have. Be enslaved without also enslaving your Master.

And rigid expectations ARE an enslavement of a Master's ultimate freedom.



Evanesce -> RE: Slave Rights (6/27/2006 8:08:44 PM)

quote:

... the right to beg for a collar
 
As a slave, I don't feel it is my "right" to beg for what rightfully belongs to Him.  The collar is His.  For me to ask Him to give to me what is His is unthinkable. 
 
quote:

... the right to beg for release
 
If things have gotten so bad that I feel the need to request release, then, for all practical purposes, I've already been released.  I just need to walk out the door. 



txpet -> RE: Slave Rights (6/27/2006 8:18:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Caretakr


My negotiations consist of outlining the uses I have for a slave,and the responsibilities I self-enforce to keep property in a usable condition. After which it is up to the slave to accept or decline. The limits are all mine-and I will reject any of the slave's, that do not hinge entirely on mental or physical health reasons.

And even if she submits to me, I am still forced to submit to the society I live in.

Needless to say,submissives and myself have no use for each other.[8D]


Sounds familiar to me



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