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RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/23/2013 1:52:08 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

you dont think it affects everyone? if the govt is spending massive amounts of money building data centers and private contractors to spy on the world, money for drones, etc, there is less money to help poor people, education, heath care, social security, etc etc..

Oh please. Conservatives do not wish to spend money on social care. It is not a zero sum budget game.

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RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/23/2013 2:07:01 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Oh please. Conservatives do not wish to spend money on social care. It is not a zero sum budget game.

Then you need to change your system..

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RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/23/2013 2:41:43 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Massive amounts of money...please tell me... how much did it cost? You seem to know everything...how much did it cost and please show me some proof
Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/23/2013 2:42:42 PM >

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RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/23/2013 4:10:45 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I think the US is perfectly happy to let him rot in Ecuador...I hoped he enjoys his new life...such as it is.


If the US Government, military and spy agencies have done nothing wrong, they have nothing to fear, do they? That's what governments always say to us, so I'm sure they'd be perfectly accepting of our saying the same shit *cough* thing right back at them.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 6/23/2013 4:14:46 PM >

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RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/23/2013 10:02:40 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

the US Government, military and spy agencies have done nothing wrong, they have nothing to fear, do they


Of course they have something to fear... that the little rat fink gives up more secrets to our enemies. I would like to see a very public fair trial and a man standing up for his principles rather than a sniveling coward betraying his country then hiding in a cesspool. At least then I could respect him even if I though he was wrong.

Butch

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/23/2013 10:20:55 PM   
jlf1961


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From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		Well according to some conspiracy theorists, he will be safe on the first leg of his journey which is to Moscow. After that, it will be an accidental launch of a nuclear anti aircraft missile from an orbiting weapons platform, a CIA assassin will use an umbrella gun to inject a small pellet loaded with a drug to simulate death by cardiac arrest, or hyper ejaculating, a CIA operative will take control of the aircraft using the remote control systems built into civilian aircraft for just such a situation and land the plane at a secret US base on an uncharted island in the Atlantic.

Or the agent flying the aircraft will duplicate 9/11 and fly the jet into Fudruckers in Newark.

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RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/24/2013 1:17:13 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I think the US is perfectly happy to let him rot in Ecuador...I hoped he enjoys his new life...such as it is.


If the US Government, military and spy agencies have done nothing wrong, they have nothing to fear, do they? That's what governments always say to us, so I'm sure they'd be perfectly accepting of our saying the same shit *cough* thing right back at them.

You are far too rational for this world Peon. Have you considered sainthood?

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RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/24/2013 6:27:21 AM   
thompsonx


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Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

the US Government, military and spy agencies have done nothing wrong, they have nothing to fear, do they


quote:

Of course they have something to fear... that the little rat fink gives up more secrets to our enemies.

What secrets did he give up?
Which enemies are you speaking of?

quote:

I would like to see a very public fair trial and a man standing up for his principles rather than a sniveling coward betraying his country then hiding in a cesspool.

How is he a sniviling coward?
What did he do to betray his country?
quote:

At least then I could respect him even if I though he was wrong.


Why?


< Message edited by thompsonx -- 6/24/2013 6:33:03 AM >

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RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/24/2013 6:34:12 AM   
DaddySatyr


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From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

the US Government, military and spy agencies have done nothing wrong, they have nothing to fear, do they


Of course they have something to fear... that the little rat fink gives up more secrets to our enemies. I would like to see a very public fair trial and a man standing up for his principles rather than a sniveling coward betraying his country then hiding in a cesspool. At least then I could respect him even if I though he was wrong.

Butch


He told the American people about unconstitutional actions by their government. Please tell me you're not falling right into the PATRIOT ACT bullshit that makes all Americans terrorists until we prove otherwise?

I could tend to agree with your assessment regarding "informing" countries like China and Russia that we're spying on them but if that is the extent of the information, I'd have to say: "False".

That we spy on other countries (even the "friendly" ones) is pretty much an established fact. It would be like a NESTLÉ™ employee telling the world that his company is trying to steal the HERSHEY™ chocolate recipe.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

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RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/24/2013 6:35:09 AM   
Rule


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Status: offline 		I suspect that Wikileaks is a honey-trap. People who trap themselves are discreetly assassinated. Those who appear to get sucked in by the honey-trap but do not get assassinated, are highly suspect...

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RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/24/2013 6:55:25 AM   
jlf1961


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From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		First he gave up no secrets or intelligence that could aid our enemies. He divulged the fact that the NSA was monitoring cell phone calls on the Verizon network as to the originating number and the number called.

Secondly, the information he outed was actually nothing new, the same thing was being done under Bush/Cheney and was reported in by news agencies during both of the Bush terms.

There were no criminal charges brought during the Bush years for the same information being leaked, so I fail to see why there should be criminal charges now, UNLESS, the NSA monitored phone calls from senators, congressmen and government employees to madams, bookies, drug dealers, or Jay and Silent Bob, which of course would mean the collapse of the United States.

Finally, anyone with half a brain would have known or at least suspected that since the technology became available to track the location of cell phones, the government was going to put that to use, and with the right equipment bought from various electronics dealers, any member of the public can actually monitor cell phone calls, they are, after all, nothing more than radio transceivers.

Besides, the Supreme court has ruled there is no expectation or guarantee of privacy for cell phone use.

So the Obama administration got butthurt because he just confirmed what many already suspected, all they need to do is buy a shit load of preparation h and go back to screwing this country up their way so the republicans can screw up things up following their agenda.

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RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/24/2013 7:05:52 AM   
mnottertail


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Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		18 USC 798 says he engaged in espionage.
He is not being charged with being unconstitutional, and the law doesnt appear to be unconstitutional since it has been law since St. Wrinklemeat signed it in.

Why are the teabaggers against it after they were for it?

Generally the U.S. Supreme Court has established three categories of what kind of review will be applied to a government’s actions to determine whether something is constitutional. If strict scrutiny is applied, then the law or action will be upheld only if it is necessary to achieve a compelling government interest. On the other end, if a rational basis test is applied, then the law will be upheld if it is merely rationally related to a legitimate government interest. Between these two, there is an intermediate scrutiny that, if applied, will uphold a law if it is substantially related to an important government purpose.

So, I think they will find the law constitutional.

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RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/24/2013 7:52:46 AM   
Zonie63


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From: The Old Pueblo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

the US Government, military and spy agencies have done nothing wrong, they have nothing to fear, do they


Of course they have something to fear... that the little rat fink gives up more secrets to our enemies. I would like to see a very public fair trial and a man standing up for his principles rather than a sniveling coward betraying his country then hiding in a cesspool. At least then I could respect him even if I though he was wrong.

Butch


I think they might have been better off playing it down, though. By turning it into a big international case, it could actually embarrass the U.S. even more on the world stage. It seems that the authorities in Hong Kong and Russia are treating this more as an administrative issue, not a political one, so they're not as fired up and zealous about arresting this guy as certain political figures in the U.S. would want them to be. He does seem to be gaining popularity in Russia and China, and the U.S. zeal in wanting him back can only serve to feed into Snowden's growing status as international celebrity.

But if the U.S. leadership took a more low-key approach and not made such a big deal about it, they might have resolved it more easily. Whatever damage he may have caused, it's already done. Now, we're faced with the question of trying to minimize and control the damage - or causing more damage, which is what our current tack might actually do. Putting pressure on Russia or any other nation which might harbor this guy doesn't seem like very smart foreign policy at this juncture. I don't think it would gain any points in terms of domestic support either.

Sure, I'd like to see a public trial where he can present his evidence and stand up for his principles. The government and its practices are also on trial. They would do better to stand up for their principles as well.

I don't know if Snowden is a sniveling coward, but I suppose if I ever faced the prospect of ending up in a federal penitentiary, I'd be tempted to rabbit as well. Of course, that's also why I live a reasonably honest, law-abiding life, so I don't have to worry about such things. Snowden took a risk, ostensibly knew what he was doing, and somehow worked out a plan of escape - although he probably didn't have all his ducks lined up that far in advance.

So, now he's in limbo, and nobody seems to know where he is at the moment. He somehow missed his flight to Cuba. If he's being detained by the Russians, they don't seem to be saying it one way or the other. But they'll probably figure some way to try to work this to their advantage.

Snowden might turn into some kind of bargaining chip, depending on how badly the US government wants him back. The U.S.-Russian relationship can go either way at this point, and Snowden can turn into a big propaganda tool for the Russians, if they were so inclined to use him for that purpose. There remains some lingering friction and disagreement over several issues, and if we blow this Snowden thing too far out of proportion, we could lose bargaining points on other issues.


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RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/24/2013 8:04:19 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

Snowden might turn into some kind of bargaining chip,


Bargaining chip..."We will trade you this guy that you want to fuck up and you give us this guy so we can fuck him up....It just sounds so right so honest so ...american



quote:

depending on how badly the US government wants him back. The U.S.-Russian relationship can go either way at this point, and Snowden can turn into a big propaganda tool for the Russians, if they were so inclined to use him for that purpose.


So this is not about right and wrong but how many political points can be scored....how again does this help anyone except the punk ass motherfuckers who sell war toys?

quote:

There remains some lingering friction and disagreement over several issues, and if we blow this Snowden thing too far out of proportion, we could lose bargaining points on other issues.


Thee and me and no one me or thee know are part of the "we who could loose "bargaining points". And yet you find it necessary to include that fatuous bullshit as something that concerns anyone except those who were embarassed by these actions.

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 6/24/2013 8:05:50 AM >

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RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/24/2013 9:43:26 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

Snowden might turn into some kind of bargaining chip,


Bargaining chip..."We will trade you this guy that you want to fuck up and you give us this guy so we can fuck him up....It just sounds so right so honest so ...american



quote:

depending on how badly the US government wants him back. The U.S.-Russian relationship can go either way at this point, and Snowden can turn into a big propaganda tool for the Russians, if they were so inclined to use him for that purpose.


So this is not about right and wrong but how many political points can be scored....how again does this help anyone except the punk ass motherfuckers who sell war toys?

quote:

There remains some lingering friction and disagreement over several issues, and if we blow this Snowden thing too far out of proportion, we could lose bargaining points on other issues.


Thee and me and no one me or thee know are part of the "we who could loose "bargaining points". And yet you find it necessary to include that fatuous bullshit as something that concerns anyone except those who were embarassed by these actions.


I was just speculating as to how the U.S. government might have played it better and what the ramifications might be. Whether or not he's used as a bargaining chip remains to be seen, but it could turn out that way.

And yes, those who were embarrassed by his actions have good reason to be, and my only point was that they're causing more embarrassment and further weakening the U.S. position in the world by trying to put pressure on the Russians over this.

I don't think that's a good idea, but then again, I'm not the one making those decisions. Such decisions are made by those experts in the government who are currently embarrassed. I don't care if they're personally embarrassed, but they're just going from bad to worse. It puts the national government in a weaker position, creating more damage when they should have been trying to minimize it. It should concern every American when such vain, irresponsible idiots are put in charge of our national security.

As for your point about what is right and wrong, I'd like to think that Snowden can get an honest day in court, so that he can stand up for his principles and present his case against the U.S. government for what they did. But he may have a point in that he may not get a fair trial in the U.S. So, the question of right and wrong may have to be decided in a Russian or Ecuadorian court. I would accept that. If we insist that other countries follow the rule of law, then we have to accept their laws and their court rulings as well.

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RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/24/2013 9:57:00 AM   
YN


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

First he gave up no secrets or intelligence that could aid our enemies. He divulged the fact that the NSA was monitoring cell phone calls on the Verizon network as to the originating number and the number called.

Secondly, the information he outed was actually nothing new, the same thing was being done under Bush/Cheney and was reported in by news agencies during both of the Bush terms.




As if the Russians, the Chinese, the Al Qaeda and the other jihadists, or even the drug gangsters even did not know the US/UK spies on the internet, cell phones, telephones, satellite phones and every other thing they can.

The only people this spying appears as news to is the public it is directed at in the Anglo nations.

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RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/24/2013 11:50:59 AM   
FrostedFlake


Posts: 3084
Joined: 3/4/2009
From: Centralia, Washington
Status: offline 		Why was what Snowden revealed a secret?

Why would Snowden believe he would get better treatment than Manning? (to cite the most obvious example)

And, making the assumption a priori that our enemy is not us, why is Department of Homeland Security buying up all the bullets and hundreds of sets of high-tech armored riot suits?

Realistically, what organization other than our government is actually in a position to actually do Us any actual harm? Isn't the Bill of Rights the means by which We prevent our government doing Us that harm? Does it not follow directly the primary mission of every American is to pass to the future the same freedoms passed to us by those who controlled government before?

With our government supporting us there is nothing in the World that can challenge us. But with our government looking after itself instead, there is nothing in the World that can challenge it, except us. And of course, that resembles a game of Whack-a-Mole. Isn't that what we are looking at?

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RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/24/2013 12:46:43 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake

Why was what Snowden revealed a secret?

Why would Snowden believe he would get better treatment than Manning? (to cite the most obvious example)

And, making the assumption a priori that our enemy is not us, why is Department of Homeland Security buying up all the bullets and hundreds of sets of high-tech armored riot suits?

Realistically, what organization other than our government is actually in a position to actually do Us any actual harm? Isn't the Bill of Rights the means by which We prevent our government doing Us that harm? Does it not follow directly the primary mission of every American is to pass to the future the same freedoms passed to us by those who controlled government before?

With our government supporting us there is nothing in the World that can challenge us. But with our government looking after itself instead, there is nothing in the World that can challenge it, except us. And of course, that resembles a game of Whack-a-Mole. Isn't that what we are looking at?



I dont know why the DHS is buying ammo unless it is for:

1 Coast Guard
2 United States Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE)
3 United States Secret Service (USSS)
4 United States Customs and Border Protection (CBP)

three of those agencies have tactical response teams.
much of the equipment conspiracy theorists are claiming as being bought by the DHS is actually just part of bigger appropriations that include other law enforcement agencies.

In other words, research discovers a lot of neat things, including who is actually getting what regardless of what nut jobs may want the public to believe.

People should be worried about the fact that mixed breeds such as myself and full blood native americans are quietly increasing our ammo supplies and weapons, waiting for the day that Crazy Horse rises from the grave and calls on us to rise up against all the non American descended peoples in our land.


Now, normally I would not follow a coherent zombie, but dude, its Crazy Horse. We would follow Geronimo but some ancestor of the last President Bush stole his head for the skull and bones society, which will impair his abilities to see, hear and formulate battle plans.

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RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/24/2013 1:13:55 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Massive amounts of money...please tell me... how much did it cost? You seem to know everything...how much did it cost and please show me some proof
Butch

How exactly am I supposed to know when apparently the govt admits it doesnt know? 15 years ago it cost $42 million for Clinton, so you can expect that its gonna be up there for this trip too.. And it depends on what you define as "massive".. while some people might consider $42.8 million massive, to me, even a measily $1 million is pretty "massive".. I cant help thinking of all the other better uses of that money which could help poor, unemployed, homeless, disabled Americans.. excuse me for having such ridiculous thoughts..

"Similar trips made by past presidents have also been costly. President Clinton's 1998 trip to six African countries cost the federal government an estimated $42.8 million, according to a Government Accountability Office report."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/21/obama-africa-trip-cost_n_3481438.html

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RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/24/2013 3:20:08 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444



I cant help thinking of all the other better uses of that money which could help poor, unemployed, homeless, disabled Americans.. excuse me for having such ridiculous thoughts..



I just love it when you get up on your soap box....your nipples get all hard and I can see up your dress

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