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RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/25/2013 12:20:03 AM

TAFKAA

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

You do realize it's a good idea for all parties, at this point, to say there was a problem with the screening process?

Not saying there wasn't a problem with the screening process, just that it's what one would necessarily say, regardless.

Obviously there was a problem with the screening process. The company entrusted to do the screening lied and didnt do it.... or.... there were benefits for them not to do it.... or... the NSA or the hiring company ignored it.... or..........

So many "ors" can be placed in there... and some of them rather frightening.

No. There was no problem with the screening process. This is attempted character assassination so they can try and discredit Snowden. It's fairly obvious disinformation and I'm confused why you seem so intent on falling for it.

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RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/25/2013 12:22:41 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Obviously there was a problem with the screening process.

Not necessarily. The oath he took starts with defending the Constitution. In his view, he has diligently upheld that oath, at substantial cost to himself. That indicates the screening process, whatever it was, got someone that took his oath quite seriously. The oath isn't to obey all orders, lawful or not, and the Constitution trumps regular laws, which in turn trump contracts and orders. In short, if Snowden's interpretation of the Constitution is correct, then any charges against him are null and void. SCOTUS will probably have to rule on that, but haven't had occasion to do so yet.

If the government were confident his interpretation isn't correct, they wouldn't be filing sealed charges, as that just adds credibility to the allegations.

quote:

So many "ors" can be placed in there... and some of them rather frightening.

Most of those "ors" rank pretty far down the list of frightening possibilities, but yeah, some are concerning.

I wouldn't put it past them to have cut corners, though, or to have had a collaborator in their ranks looking to pull this off, seeing as it's been suggested (and more than suggested) that Snowden joined specifically to be able to leak this data. Someone on the inside may have agreed with that goal and aided in getting him past the screening process, which would be encouraging (and ecstatically news compared to cutting corners, given the sensitivity of the data). But, really, if Snowden planned this all along, catching him in the screening process would probably have been hard. In any case, it does emphasize the risks of gathering this much intelligence in one place, and of the ongoing practice of sidelining actual analysts in favor of beurocrats and politicians.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

P.S.: You remember that Snowden isn't the first NSA person to make this sort of allegation, right?

_____________________________

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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/25/2013 12:26:09 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

IF that is true, then the Court needs to take a look and make a decision before we declare it unconstitutional.

And thanks to Snowden, the Court now will get to take a look, rather than most of it resting with the executive and a little with the legislative (and no real judicial oversight).

That's valuable in itself, don't you think?

IWYW,
— Aswad.

_____________________________

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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/25/2013 12:27:34 AM

Rule

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FR

It is really very simple: because of budget cuts no spy is ever screened; and considering that only honest people are recruited, such a background check is obviously superfluous, especially the six days to Sunday kind of background checks. Besides, if you were a screening person, what would you rather do: screen a potential spy, or sit on a terrace and have a drink? Q.E.D.

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RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/25/2013 12:28:42 AM

tazzygirl

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Actually, lying on your application is grounds for immediate dismissal in every employment agreement I have ever seen. Swearing loyalty after telling a bunch of lies.... yeah.... sorry... not buying that one.

Again, I havent said the allegations are wrong. Nor have I said the administration is blameless, nor have I said there isnt a cover up going on somewhere. But too many people are willing to hold up this man as some sort of hero.... and something definitely stinks about the whole thing.

quote:

That's valuable in itself, don't you think?

I agree, it definitely is... I see something a bit more sinister than apparently most of you do.. so... on that note... good night

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RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/25/2013 12:30:29 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TAFKAA

No. There was no problem with the screening process. This is attempted character assassination so they can try and discredit Snowden. It's fairly obvious disinformation and I'm confused why you seem so intent on falling for it.

It's possible there was a problem with the screening process. But, the utility of disinformation at this point is such a major confounding factor that it's impossible to say whether or not there is any substance to the claim. Which means they can use it if it proves useful, or let it fizzle if it doesn't, and that the rest of us will remain skeptical either way.

That said, there's plenty of motive to accept it, rather than accepting that there's a narrowing, gilded cage called the Land of the Free.

Particularly when the gilt is flaking, too.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/25/2013 12:48:51 AM

TAFKAA

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Well that's part of the other problem. I regard Snowden and Bradley Manning as having upheld the constitution. I regard George W. Bush and Barrack Obama as having violated their oath of office by NOT upholding the constitution and consequently both are guilty of a Federal crime and should be held pending criminal charges.

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RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/25/2013 12:51:36 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Actually, lying on your application is grounds for immediate dismissal in every employment agreement I have ever seen. Swearing loyalty after telling a bunch of lies.... yeah.... sorry... not buying that one.

Lying on the application is grounds for dismissal, certainly. Nowhere have I suggested he should get his job back. As for swearing loyalty, the pledge is first and foremost to the Constitution, so the intention to expose any breaches thereof would render everything else secondary (as is inherent in the oath).

quote:

But too many people are willing to hold up this man as some sort of hero.... and something definitely stinks about the whole thing.

«I reckon every man ever got a statue of him made was some kind of sonofabitch or other.» — Mal, Firefly

Never said he was a paragon. Few heroes, if any, are.

quote:

I agree, it definitely is...

Glad we agree on that.

quote:

I see something a bit more sinister than apparently most of you do.. so... on that note... good night

Good night indeed. Feel free to share your thoughts later.

I see plenty of sinister possibilities. I always do. Used to go with the job.

Nothing quite so sinister as e.g. Bringsjord advising Congress to build Skynet, killer drones and sensor nets, though.

His 1997 paper, "Only Technology Can Tame Terror", is not encouraging. I'm also not very happy that Congress is listening to him, nor that he envisions that this system should be built and maintained by the US and acting globally, nor that his suggested means of killing potential threats (as determined by the AI and effectuated without human involvement at any point) is via Polonium, one of the less pleasant ways to go and a favorite of Putin's.

Does it seem like a good idea to have even the rudiments of such systems in place while there are people arguing that we should be using them thus today out there? How long before it gets put into use for other things? Or something goes very wrong? Or some fucktard gets it into his head to use it for something truly absurd, like enforcing abortion laws? It doesn't take much of a historical perspective to know that all nations go crazy periodically.

Long term, if anything comes of this, Snowden is a hero, though he'll have flaws, like any non-fictional hero.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/25/2013 7:02:50 AM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TAFKAA
No. There was no problem with the screening process. This is attempted character assassination so they can try and discredit Snowden. It's fairly obvious disinformation and I'm confused why you seem so intent on falling for it.

^^ THIS ^^
all this about Snowden not having a degree and all the other shite they are trying to discredit him with is entirely spin, trying to change the focus.. He was working for the CIA, vetted by them and given a level of clearance also, prior to being hired by the NSA.. Two spy agencies going thru his credentials and background with a fine toothed comb.. if there were things they overlooked, its cuz they chose to overlook them cuz of his abilities and smarts, likely thinking that if they paid him enough that would buy his loyalty and silence..

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RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/25/2013 7:04:17 AM

tazzygirl

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quote:

if there were things they overlooked, its cuz they chose to overlook them cuz of his abilities and smarts, likely thinking that if they paid him enough that would buy his loyalty and silence..

Or other reasons....

... Im not as trusting of our government as you are

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RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/25/2013 7:31:31 AM

jlf1961

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Well the latest is that Snowden arrived at the Moscow airport, but never left the air side of the terminal, he had a ticket to Havana, but it has not been used.

quote:

Russia says it has had no involvement in the travel plans of fugitive US intelligence leaker Edward Snowden.

His whereabouts are unclear after he flew from Hong Kong to Moscow on Sunday. His passport has been revoked.

Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov insisted Mr Snowden had not crossed the border and rejected what he termed US attempts to blame Russia for his disappearance.

US Secretary of State John Kerry said the US did not seek "confrontation" but Russia should hand over Mr Snowden.

Correspondents say Mr Lavrov's comments suggest that Mr Snowden remained air-side after landing at Moscow's Sheremetyevo airport, and so has technically never entered Russian territory.
BBC News

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RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/25/2013 7:46:09 AM

serving6

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the thing is not snowden,,,,the rest of the World politicians of the World not dear to complane to mr big usa

thats the scary part

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RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/25/2013 3:45:59 PM

Aswad

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Actually, several countries have complained, including China. But there's a difference between complaining, taking action and taking violent action. The US is tied with Israel for the position of being the most credible threat against the human species, so people will avoid violent action until such time as a viable defense against nuclear missiles is found (at which point both of those nations will probably experience a karmic credit default).

Currently, China's response has been to advise corporations to stop buying network gear from American companies, which means some billions in revenues lost. Australia has responded by rejecting similar legislation. Germany will, obviously, take time to deliberate, but is already pretty clear this will not be acceptable.

Everyone knows money is the deciding factor in all American politics (just consider the steel tax debacle under GWB).

Thus, financial sanctions will be the primary way nations will put pressure on the USA.

For instance, this may violate the ethical capital management guidelines of the Government Pension Fund of Norway, its value currently comparable to the cost of the war in Afghanistan, in which case it would start divesting its portfolios in the relevant companies, as it has in the past, to encourage change toward a more ethical, more sustainable future. The EU may slap several US companies with substantial fines, or requirements that they change their business model in ways that facilitate circumvention of the surveillance programmes (with a hefty price tag for actually accomplishing that). China already has substantial leverage, and is likely to apply some of it.

The whole thing may end up costing... a lot... and that usually results in changes in the US, unlike irrelevancies like voting and diplomacy.

In that sense, the US is fairly easy to handle: just squeeze the wallet.

So, yes, complaints coming, in a big way.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/25/2013 4:26:13 PM

jlf1961

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According to Aeroflot records, snowden was supposed to leave Moscow this morning for Havana, he was not on the plane, however it was confirmed he arrived in Moscow, kinda sorta, since none of the hundreds of journalists hanging around the arrival gates actually saw him deplane.

For that matter, no one actually saw him get on the plane in Hong Kong.

This has sense popped up Edward Snowden Doesn't Exist, Is a Gay Alien, and Other Conspiracy Theories Read more: http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/edward-snowden-doesnt-exist-is-a-gay-alien-and-other-conspiracy-theories#ixzz2XGu6Gsgc Follow us: @motherboard on Twitter | motherboardtv on Facebook

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RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/25/2013 4:53:48 PM

Rule

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Maybe he already resides as an inmate in one of the torture prisons that the USA have established on foreign soils?

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RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/26/2013 7:54:50 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Maybe he already resides as an inmate in one of the torture prisons that the USA have established on foreign soils?

That would be kind of cool, since then I could read Snowden's insurance policy.

Can't stop the signal, Rule.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

_____________________________

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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/26/2013 8:34:09 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

According to Aeroflot records, Snowden was supposed to leave Moscow this morning for Havana, he was not on the plane

Yeah, plenty of journalists got on that plane. One of them tweeted "he ain't here", among other things. So, no need to rely on Aeroflot records.

quote:

however it was confirmed he arrived in Moscow, kinda sorta, since none of the hundreds of journalists hanging around the arrival gates actually saw him deplane.

As far as Putin is concerned, the guy is in Moscow, but hasn't crossed the Russian border yet (i.e. remains in the transit zone). That's close enough for practical purposes, but yes, it's somewhat amusing that pictures are so hard to come by. I suppose we don't even have a lot of confirmation that the guy even exists, at this point.

quote:

For that matter, no one actually saw him get on the plane in Hong Kong.

The people assisting him probably did.

Anyway, amusingly enough, the US is chastizing Hong Kong and Russia for upholding rule of law, rather than yielding to bullying by the US. Note that the Chinese statements made about the "torn off mask" refers to a concept we might translate as "utter loss of face", reflecting how the bullying tactic is seen in many places. Like a child throwing a tantrum around grownups, this is embarassing. Less visceral tactics may be called for when dealing with adult nations. ~snicker~ (Referring here to the US gov't, not the US people.)

IWYW,
— Aswad.

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We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/26/2013 10:23:05 AM

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It is reported Snowden is not to be found anywhere at the Moscow airfield.

Not that the Russians could not send him where they please if the Russian security organizations decided to intervene.

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RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/26/2013 8:35:22 PM

LookieNoNookie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

Despite espionage charges, he's not headed for the United States.

http://news.yahoo.com/former-nsa-contractor-snowden-leaves-hong-kong-moscow-080843121.html

I'm having a really hard time forming an opinion on this issue.....

One the one hand, he let out state secrets....on the other hand....why the FUCK is my government spying on me and everyone else on the planet, while bitching as mightily as they can about China and everyone else on Earth spying on us?

I'm kind of leaning towards....I think the guy did the right thing, and I'm kind of thinking, if they don't change their tune and actually THANK this guy (as opposed to putting him in prison).....they might start something they can't stop.

I think this guy could easily turn out to be a tipping point for the electorate.

I've been wrong before.

(Once).

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 6/26/2013 8:36:24 PM >

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RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/26/2013 10:01:09 PM

jlf1961

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

I'm having a really hard time forming an opinion on this issue.....

One the one hand, he let out state secrets....on the other hand....why the FUCK is my government spying on me and everyone else on the planet, while bitching as mightily as they can about China and everyone else on Earth spying on us?

I'm kind of leaning towards....I think the guy did the right thing, and I'm kind of thinking, if they don't change their tune and actually THANK this guy (as opposed to putting him in prison).....they might start something they can't stop.

I think this guy could easily turn out to be a tipping point for the electorate.

I've been wrong before.

(Once).

They could be spying on people that report giant cock pictures when they log into certain bdsm website.

My personal opinion is that the NSA is actually recording phone sex conversations in order to write erotic DVD movies to sell and raise money to lower the federal budget deficit. Internet and DVD pornography generates $14 billion annually, in the US alone, with an additional $73 Billion from the three biggest porn hungry nations, China, Japan and South Korea.

The NSA is also probably elected officials of both parties hoping to get some information to generate further income by blackmail.

Now you can purchase cell phones from after market companies that cannot be traced by gps or tapped in any way shape or form. These usually run about twice the price of the unmodified cell phone.

Now there are some posters on these forums, who shall remain nameless, that just by the nature of their posts make me suspect that they are agents of the FBI, CIA, NSA, SPCA, and other dictatorial agencies. Still others know far too much about politics which makes me think that they are congressmen and congresswomen.

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