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RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/24/2013 11:33:30 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		FR

Always trust a spy.

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/24/2013 11:35:50 PM   
TAFKAA


Posts: 382
Joined: 1/5/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Hasnt anyone questioned his "rise"?

http://news.yahoo.com/5-ways-nsa-leaker-edward-snowdens-story-isnt-115500971.html

I'd question anything which quoted a source from the NSA or their contractors. Their optimal strategy at this point is disinformation. And neither the NSA nor the CIA are neophytes at creating disinformation campaigns.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/24/2013 11:37:40 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		I see a lot of disinformation being put out, to be sure. I dont think we will know the whole story ever. But to put this man into such a position, with the little education as he had, and most of his resume not being verified...

Honestly? No one is batting an eye at that?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/24/2013 11:40:27 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		Never bat an eye at a spy: they are all honest folk.

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/24/2013 11:46:57 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TAFKAA

I'd question anything which quoted a source from the NSA or their contractors. Their optimal strategy at this point is disinformation. And neither the NSA nor the CIA are neophytes at creating disinformation campaigns.


Understatement of the year.

That's another of the reasons why it's useful to consider sources like those I mentioned in #60, since different nations' sources have different takes on such a story.

The coverage in the news in the USA appears to be more one-sided than in the rest of the world, and far more focused on Snowden's character than on his allegations and their implications, which is somewhat troubling, precisely because such character assassination is an accepted strategy in the US and fairly effective at diverting, subverting and obfuscating the real issues. Even the BBC has pointed out that the general idea of the leak- that the population should know what means are used in their name and be allowed a voice in the matter- is an important one.

I'm also baffled that the term "traitor" comes up, when it has such a specific meaning, clearly not applicable (but, by contrast, eminently applicable to what Obama has considered with regard to arming the Syrian branch of al-Quaeda, which arguably fits with "giving aid and comfort to an enemy of the United States"). Despite GWB's assertions to the contrary, a constitution isn't "just a piece of paper".

Diverting it into emotions and character politics is, sadly, often an effective tactic.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to TAFKAA)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/24/2013 11:51:46 PM   
TAFKAA


Posts: 382
Joined: 1/5/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I see a lot of disinformation being put out, to be sure. I dont think we will know the whole story ever. But to put this man into such a position, with the little education as he had, and most of his resume not being verified...

Honestly? No one is batting an eye at that?


Only NSA people or former NSA people are saying such things. Are you seriously trying to tell me that the NSA - the most paranoid organisation on the planet - somehow forgot to vet one of the people who would be working for them?

I live in New Zealand. You cannot work for any such organisation here - or their vendors - without being vetted for Top Secret clearance. It takes 6 months. If you seriously think American internal security is inferior to ours, you're naive.

This guy was vetted 6 ways to Sunday - no two ways about it. What you're seeing now is disinformation and spin.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/24/2013 11:52:23 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		http://www.aljazeera.com/news/americas/2013/06/201362123740788845.html

Since you wanted a non-American source.

The USIS investigation predates the Snowden scandal, but McFarland told the Homeland Security Subcommittee hearing that there are now concerns that USIS may not have carried out its background check into the 29-year-old Snowden in an appropriate or thorough manner.

Snowden had a Top Secret/Sensitive Compartmented Information level clearance.

..........

USIS conducts federal employee background checks for the Office of Personnel management, the government agency primarily responsible for overseeing such investigations.

"Yes, we do believe that there - there may be some problems," McFarland said of Snowden's review.

USIS said in a statement that it has never been informed that it is under "criminal investigation".

Seems this is coming up all over the place. How someone can possibly obtain that position.

There is no doubt whathe said wasnt true...

There is lots of doubt emerging about how he got his position, who got him that position, and for what reason.



_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/24/2013 11:52:40 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Honestly? No one is batting an eye at that?


Having seen both what average recruiting practices look like and how the right person for the job can sometimes look uninteresting or even unsuited on paper, I'm not batting an eye. If Booz is competent, they will not just be looking for resumes that seem to fit the bill. And if the NSA is using them, I'm inclined to guess they're competent.

They need brains, not the stuff in them. The software can be installed, if the hardware can run it.

It could be a fluke, sure, but it's just as likely not to have been.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/24/2013 11:53:38 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Only NSA people or former NSA people are saying such things. Are you seriously trying to tell me that the NSA - the most paranoid organisation on the planet - somehow forgot to vet one of the people who would be working for them?


Nope, read the Al Jazeera link

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to TAFKAA)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/24/2013 11:53:40 PM   
TAFKAA


Posts: 382
Joined: 1/5/2013
Status: offline 		Oh and this:

"Several former CIA officials tell The Washington Post that it seems unlikely that the agency would hire somebody without a high school diploma, especially for a technical job,"

is absolute, comprehensive, Grade-A bullshit. Some of the best hackers in the world are self-taught with no formal qualifications and the three-letter agencies would kill to have these guys work for them. The fuckers haunt Defcon and try and headhunt every year.

(in reply to TAFKAA)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/24/2013 11:54:39 PM   
TAFKAA


Posts: 382
Joined: 1/5/2013
Status: offline 		Al Jazeera are quoting American officials. It's spin.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/24/2013 11:55:07 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Its ALL spin at this point.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to TAFKAA)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/24/2013 11:56:11 PM   
TAFKAA


Posts: 382
Joined: 1/5/2013
Status: offline 		Well the part about the NSA and the President violating the Constitution isn't. That's pretty well documented.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/24/2013 11:57:32 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		That hasnt been proven. There was a SC decision stating that phone records do not belong to the individual.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/1630900/posts

Depends on how the Court interprets this under the NSA actions.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 6/25/2013 12:01:45 AM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to TAFKAA)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/25/2013 12:01:44 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Since you wanted a non-American source.


Didn't say I wanted one. Said you might want to supplement with some. Different angles, etc.

quote:

Seems this is coming up all over the place. How someone can possibly obtain that position.


Seeing as I know a few people with that sort of clearance, and have done sensitive work, I'm not overly surprised.

It's hard to screen in a way that gets you the people you need, while eliminating the people that might be moved to do the whistleblowing thing, particularly because the people you're looking for are generally well aware of how the screening process works and frequently substantially smarter than those conducting the interviews (not always, mind you, but often; you want the best and the brightest, after all, to stay ahead of the pack in the intelligence game- not an oxymoron).

quote:

There is lots of doubt emerging about how he got his position, who got him that position, and for what reason.


You do realize it's a good idea for all parties, at this point, to say there was a problem with the screening process?

Not saying there wasn't a problem with the screening process, just that it's what one would necessarily say, regardless.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/25/2013 12:02:54 AM   
TAFKAA


Posts: 382
Joined: 1/5/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

That hasnt been proven. There was a SC decision stating that phone records do not belong to the individual.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/1630900/posts

Depends on how the Court interprets this under the NSA actions.


Phone metadata doesn't. (Who you call, when and for how long). Phone conversations do. Recording phone conversations - which they are doing - is a clear violation of the constitution.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/25/2013 12:03:41 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

You do realize it's a good idea for all parties, at this point, to say there was a problem with the screening process?

Not saying there wasn't a problem with the screening process, just that it's what one would necessarily say, regardless.


Obviously there was a problem with the screening process. The company entrusted to do the screening lied and didnt do it.... or.... there were benefits for them not to do it.... or... the NSA or the hiring company ignored it.... or..........

So many "ors" can be placed in there... and some of them rather frightening.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/25/2013 12:04:05 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TAFKAA

The fuckers haunt Defcon and try and headhunt every year.


Many of their employees attend Defcon regularly, as well, not just the headhunters.

And, yes, there's plenty of people they would give their right nut to have.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to TAFKAA)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/25/2013 12:11:04 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Depends on how the Court interprets this under the NSA actions.


It's pretty well documented (but classified, and therein lies the rub) that the NSA is engaged in domestic espionage (including computer intrusion), which falls outside their mandate, just to mention one point. The whole thing with secret courts and the like is also rather iffy, and quite frankly one of the defining elements of a police state (turnkey or otherwise), but couldn't really be tried in a court without this sort of confirmation. The ACLU is on it, apparently.

That's one of the reasons what Snowden did is a good thing: it enables the courts to start interpreting.

Also, the US military has stated that "cyber" attacks qualify as acts of war, and I'm somewhat curious as to whether the NSA has the authority to commence acts of war against China without the approval of Congress. Not that it would be particularly unique for a double standard to apply in such matters, but you must admit it's a little questionable to cross your own lines for acts of war against another superpower in the name of safety and security (to say nothing of simultaneously accusing them of the same and crying foul about it).

While I have opinions on the right thing to do, the most important thing to me is that this opens the door to trying the legality of these policies.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Snowden leaves Hong Kong - 6/25/2013 12:17:59 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		I said it depends based upon the following....

A requirement of the 2008 law is that the NSA "may not intentionally target any person known at the time of acquisition to be located in the United States." A possible interpretation of that language, some legal experts said, is that the agency may vacuum up everything it can domestically -- on the theory that indiscriminate data acquisition was not intended to "target" a specific American citizen.

IF that is true, then the Court needs to take a look and make a decision before we declare it unconstitutional. Im not saying it isnt.. I just said it has yet to be proven it is.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 80
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