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RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/25/2013 8:53:46 PM

SpanishMatMaster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
Few would contest the idea that Israel is a client state of the Us.

We are speaking here about colonies. Not about supposed "client states". You change the terms.

quote:

Client states. Colonies. All are points on a continuum of tools of statecraft.

As "genocide" and "looking angry at somebody" are both part of a continuum of aggression. Or a fly and a planet are both part of a continuum of size.

So... you missed the point. As simple as that. Now, do you want to say something about COLONIES or are you going to continue insisting that looking angry at somebody is basically as licit as genocide, and a fly is basically as big as a planet?

Best regards.

Factually you are wrong.

Read the title of this thread.

So, again: you missed the point. And you do not want to say anything about COLONIES, which is the subject of this thread, and continue insisting that looking angry at somebody is basically as licit as genocide, and a fly is basically as big as a planet. Ok then, see you in another thread.

< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 6/25/2013 8:54:14 PM >

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(in reply to Phydeaux)

Post #: 81

RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/25/2013 8:55:01 PM

Rule

Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

quote:

"If you want peace, prepare for war."

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 82

RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/25/2013 9:11:10 PM

Edwynn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Bah. The entire idea is poppycock.
Rejecting colonialism is rejecting one element in an array of options of statecraft -for both the dominant and subordinant client.

It seems to have escaped notice here that whatever foisted-upon 'statecraft' was not actually an "option" for those colonized. Or did you miss out on that fabled recent endeavor into imposing democracy, which is actually so hated in our own land?

The problem is that the Orient and the Occident and the lands between have each their own ideas as would constitute 'statecraft' or any other ordination of society.

If it's all about the race to get to industrialization and 'high-minded' ideas and self-serving philosophy the quickest, then the Westerners certainly crossed the goal-line first. In our own estimation, anyways. We'll see (though not ourselves) how the world feels about all this 100-200 years hence.

quote:

Few would contest the idea that Israel is a client state of the Us. While many on the left would deny that both states have derived benefit; nonetheless they have.

How bizarre that is. Maybe the 'left' you're acquainted with are doing better drugs than those I'm acquainted with (leaving your own medications out of it for the instance), but the putative 'mutual benefit' in that Faustian deal has been both accepted practice and accepted knowledge for decades. Who gives a crap about Israel, other than being a ready and eager and ongoing source of antagonism to countries that stand over oil that Western countries have always considered their own.

British and French and American et al. colonialism has done a world of good to the the Middle East, as we can see now, eh?

We see now how Egypt and India and Vietnam and Korea and S. Africa and Uruguay and Nigeria and etc. kneel before us in abject gratitude.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 6/25/2013 9:48:26 PM >

(in reply to Phydeaux)

Post #: 83

RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/25/2013 9:28:38 PM

Phydeaux

Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

As for 'moral superiority' - well, your argument is absurd on its face. No group is more 'moral' than another.
[..]
Muslim culture puts concerns of state under the concerns of religion (uma) and hence subrogates the rights of minorities. Subrogates the rights of women. In some places encourages suicide bombing. Muslim nations usuallly fracture along tribal lines as well.

Democracies, in contrast, provide a peaceful way for the political process to occur. Are they subject to abuse. Absolutely. Are they instable - absolutely. Can they devolve into statism. Absolutely.
[...]
Frankly, the middle east is heading toward another conflict. Israel and the US should hope it occurs before Russia and Chinese power eclipse us further.

'
You point-blank deny, and then resort to "moral superiority" to justify an argument that in the end boils down to 'Might is Right'.

It's kind of fitting that the post ends with a note of excitement at the prospect of a new ME conflict, and the prospect of US and Israeli involvement, and a hope that it happens sooner rather than later. The perspective you defend has nothing to offer those of us who want peace and justice. Such notions don't operate in the violent, nasty world your post seems to celebrate.

I hope all war mongers actually live in the world that you have just described. How can such thugs not deserve getting the kind of world they advocate?

Since it doesn't seem to be clear to you, I'll say it again in smaller words. No nation is more moral than another.
Having a better form of government doesn't make one more moral any more than having a better tank makes one more moral. It probably makes us more politically advanced, (on top of economically advanced, technologically advanced, etc).

It is *laughable* that you want peace and justice - in a thread opening with the "evils of colonialism". You want *your* version of peace and justice - no different and certainly no more morally superior to the colonialists you despise.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 84

RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/25/2013 9:50:43 PM

Phydeaux

Posts: 4828
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Bah. The entire idea is poppycock.
Rejecting colonialism is rejecting one element in an array of options of statecraft -for both the dominant and subordinant client.

It seems to have escaped notice here that whatever foisted-upon 'statecraft' was not actually an "option" for those colonized. Or did you miss out on that fabled recent endeavor into imposing democracy, which is actually so hated in our own land?

Don't blame me (or any rationalist) about the idiocy of trying to impose democracy on a third rate economy, with 4th rate political institutions.

Also, Why do you think I missed that fact that colonization was not optional? Colonialization, however was probably a better choice for them than extinction. The same choice that has been made millions of times in history. And the opposite is also true - do you know the location of carthage? Of course not, because the Romans, tired of the wars, executed the carthaginian solution. They killed every man, woman and child, and sowed the fields with salt.

quote:

The problem is that the Orient and the Occident and the lands between have each their own ideas as would constitute 'statecraft' or any other ordination of society.

Hardly a problem.

quote:

If it's all about the race to get to industrialization and 'high-minded' ideas and self-serving philosophy the quickest, then the Westerners certainly crossed the goal-line first. In our own estimation, anyways. We'll see (though not ourselves) how the world feels about all this 100-200 years hence.

Study history more.

The muslim massacre of vienna. The japanese rape of nanking. the cambodian killing fields. Ruwanda. Stalins collectivism purges. The meso american Aztec slaughter of enemy cultures. The monghols massacre of baghdad.

The occident has no monopoly on virtue, nor the occident on vice.

quote:

Who gives a crap about Israel...

The religious right, generally speaking in the Us. The jewish diaspora. Who gives a crap about the palestinians? Certainly not the arabs.

< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 6/25/2013 9:53:04 PM >

(in reply to Edwynn)

Post #: 85

RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/25/2013 10:00:50 PM

Edwynn

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This is why I gave up on 'moralism' and ideology of whatever sort in general.

Ideology absolves people from having to actually investigate how society works.

There is no escaping that any economy is demand-based. And all the hogwash about 'supply-side' and 'trickle-down' and other tactics to destroy civilization for temporary benefit of the destroyers of the planet doesn't play with me. Not at all.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 6/25/2013 10:02:09 PM >

(in reply to Phydeaux)

Post #: 86

RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/25/2013 10:39:55 PM

Edwynn

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Joined: 10/26/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Bah. The entire idea is poppycock.
Rejecting colonialism is rejecting one element in an array of options of statecraft -for both the dominant and subordinant client.

It seems to have escaped notice here that whatever foisted-upon 'statecraft' was not actually an "option" for those colonized. Or did you miss out on that fabled recent endeavor into imposing democracy, which is actually so hated in our own land?

quote:

Also, Why do you think I missed that fact that colonization was not optional?

Who knows how I got that idea.

quote:

Rejecting colonialism is rejecting one element in an array of options of statecraft -for both the dominant and subordinant client.

Maybe it was that. Sorry if I misread.

quote:

Colonialization, however was probably a better choice for them than extinction. The same choice that has been made millions of times in history.

Yes, the lethal consequence variant of Hobson's choice existing through all the empires. And here we are still doing what was done 4,000 years ago. My, how far we've come along. And this is our 'superior way' that we are trying to foist upon the Muslims, right?

quote:

And the opposite is also true ...

It is? If you know of a history that involves an empire or 'super power' imposing peace and tranquility and society-benefit policies as opposed to benefit of the rulers or the 'nobles' (financiers and bond holders), then I'm all ears.

quote:

If it's all about the race to get to industrialization and 'high-minded' ideas and self-serving philosophy the quickest, then the Westerners certainly crossed the goal-line first. In our own estimation, anyways. We'll see (though not ourselves) how the world feels about all this 100-200 years hence.

quote:

Study history more.

I understand it better than you.

quote:

The muslim massacre of vienna. The japanese rape of nanking. the cambodian killing fields. Ruwanda. Stalins collectivism purges. The meso american Aztec slaughter of enemy cultures. The monghols massacre of baghdad.

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt, etc.

Henry VIII's ordering that his enemies be drawn and quartered and intestines be ripped out and run with and heart ripped out and shown to them and their penis be cut off and stuffed in their mouth, etc. ... hell, all the native S. Americans did was cut out the heart and be done with it.

quote:

The occident has no monopoly on virtue, nor the occident on vice.

Dis I say that? No I didn't. This explains a lot about your interpretation of history.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 6/25/2013 11:00:50 PM >

(in reply to Phydeaux)

Post #: 87

RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/25/2013 11:35:58 PM

Edwynn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

I didn't say we never invaded anyone for oi. I said we didn't invade afghanistan for oil.

We didn't invade for the oil fields, we invaded for the pipelines. Chevron said (in 1997) that they couldn't proceed with their venture until the Taliban were evicted. Billions are not spent for ideological prosthletization, but for a solid return on equity, capitalized by tax payers and soldiers, with no return to either of them for that investment.

You didn't know that that's how capitalism works for the mentally deranged, did you?

Almost any of us would like to see the Taliban evicted from the planet, but Chevron had no interest in that regard other than their precious pipelines.

quote:

The afghan oil fields were shut down prior to american invsion, fwiw.

What timing.

What strategical enui on their part.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 6/26/2013 12:12:08 AM >

(in reply to Phydeaux)

Post #: 88

RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/26/2013 12:40:06 AM

tweakabelle

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

Since it doesn't seem to be clear to you, I'll say it again in smaller words. No nation is more moral than another.
Having a better form of government doesn't make one more moral any more than having a better tank makes one more moral. It probably makes us more politically advanced, (on top of economically advanced, technologically advanced, etc).
e
It is *laughable* that you want peace and justic - in a thread opening with the "evils of colonialism". You want *your* version of peace and justice - no different and certainly no more morally superior to the colonialists you despise.

It's rare that I see such arrogance combined with such sheer stupidity as in the above post.

It is all based on enforcing the claim that "Might is Right" yet it is blindly ignorant of the moral dimensions of such a claim. The contempt expressed ("It is *laughable* that you want peace and justice") for peace shows us the war mongering heart of your discourse. Any one who is contemptuous of "peace and justice" is surely a moral bankrupt that ought to be condemned to live permanently right in the middle of a war zone so that they get what they richly deserve.

There are significant numbers of countries that have never invaded anyone, never colonised anyone and only seek to live in peace with the rest of the world. The USA, UK, France and other Western colonial and neo-colonial powers do not qualify for this list. If in doubt, count the number of foreign countries where the militaries of USA UK and France have been unwelcomely active since WWII.

By choosing to invade and oppress others they make themselves morally inferior to those who decline to invade and oppress others.
QED.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/26/2013 12:51:48 AM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 89

RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/26/2013 12:47:47 AM

SpanishMatMaster

Posts: 967
Joined: 9/28/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
It is all based on enforcing the claim that "Might is Right" yet it is blind to the moral dimensions of such a claim.

There are significant numbers of countries that have never invaded anyone, never colonised anyone and only seek to live in peace with the rest of the world.

But I am sure that they all looked with anger to somebody in some moment.

And all are points on a continuum of aggression. Looking with anger is aggressive. Bombing a city is aggressive. They are all points in a continuum of aggression, and therefore, basically the same.

As you can compare a bacteria and a galaxy in size, then they have equal size.

Feel the logic.

*double slapface*

On a fully unrelated matter (because the above is about Phydeaux's 'logic' and therefore unrelated to the real matter of this post): did you read my answer? What do you think about it? I really gave it a thought, that's why I am asking.

_____________________________

Humanist (therefore Atheist), intelligent, cultivated and very humble :)
If I don't answer you, maybe I "hid" you: PM me if you want.
“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, pause and reflect.” (Mark Twain)

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 90

RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/26/2013 12:55:57 AM

tweakabelle

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster
On a fully unrelated matter (because the above is about Phydeaux's 'logic' and therefore unrelated to the real matter of this post): did you read my answer? What do you think about it? I really gave it a thought, that's why I am asking.

Yes I did and thank you for responding.

I felt that a discussion about the distinctions in imperialism and colonialism you drew was in danger of becoming too technical for this forum. So I felt it best not to respond to your points, even tho I am far from convinced of the merits of your analysis (eg. I see the Occupation of Palestine as a neo-colonial issue with the struggle against white rule in apartheid Sth Africa the closest historical or real life parallel)

BTW, there is a significant difference between 'feeling' aggressive and acting aggressively, as I am sure you're aware. The moral crux is located at the point where one begins to act aggressively towards others.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/26/2013 1:15:53 AM >

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Post #: 91

RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/26/2013 1:15:29 AM

Edwynn

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My dearest tweakabelle ...

You have to understand what went on in the Orient before the Occident arrived, what went on in the Americas before Spain and France and England arrived, etc.

If you just knew that, then you would be more justified in your indignation of what the Us or Israel are doing just now.

If you knew the 'mindset' of some of these people that you claim as inherent non-beligerents, then you might be awakened.

The US is virtually alone in not having centuries of conflict among myriad competing factions to even get to being a 'country' to begin with.

Laos, Cambodia, the many different states or principalities that eventually became China or Germany, 'Italy,' Finland, Sweden, .. Mya, Azteca ...

The US just had one horrendous civil war is all, but other than that.

It is not my aim to 'justify' any of this, past or present, and my biggest gripe is that the current 'super power' seems hell bent on regression, but I'm somewhat stymied by the assertion that smaller countries would not have done the same if only they could have, 30 or 100 years ago.

That's not what I get at all from reading other cultures.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 6/26/2013 1:17:13 AM >

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 92

RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/26/2013 1:40:11 AM

Edwynn

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PS

The Latin American countries get along well better now that in times past largely due Spain and the United Fruit Company being gone. They finally realized that 'libertad' meant 'libertad' from Reagan's gun imports, and quit pestering us to expand our cocaine markets, etc.

If you knew anything about 'Korea' then you'd know that hey would have done everything to the Japanese as what the other did to them, had they only been in the better position, e.g.

It's all been a matter of opportunity and relative position, throughout the ages.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 6/26/2013 1:45:14 AM >

(in reply to Edwynn)

Post #: 93

RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/26/2013 3:41:02 AM

Rule

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Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

No group is more 'moral' than another.

That is incorrect. Generally, the more technologically advanced population will also be the more morally advanced population, because to be technologically advanced, they must be the most innovative population. That same innovative characteristic will also express itself in their morals.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
You point-blank deny, and then resort to "moral superiority" to justify an argument that in the end boils down to 'Might is Right'.

Indeed, it is.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
The perspective you defend has nothing to offer those of us who want peace and justice.

Have you personally been shot at recently? Bombed? Attacked by a mugger? Raped? Please tell us in which way you personally have not been safe recently, if ever.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Such notions don't operate in the violent, nasty world your post seems to celebrate.

Indeed, it is a violent, nasty world.

You'd better hope that there are some armed men who will protect you from the criminals and other violent, nasty people.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
I hope all war mongers actually live in the world that you have just described. How can such thugs not deserve getting the kind of world they advocate?

Definition of 'thug':
1. A violent person, esp. a criminal.
2. A member of a religious organization of robbers and assassins in India, suppressed by the British in the 1830s.

Please document how those thugs have applied violence or any other criminal activity towards you.

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 94

RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/26/2013 3:58:22 AM

Rule

Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

You want *your* version of peace and justice

I agree that Tweakabelle does.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Any one who is contemptuous of "peace and justice" is surely a moral bankrupt that ought to be condemned to live permanently right in the middle of a war zone so that they get what they richly deserve.

Therefore, conversely, we may expect that many of those who live in the middle of a war zone are morally bankrupt and that they indeed are in the process of "getting what they richly deserve".

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
There are significant numbers of countries that have never invaded anyone, never colonised anyone and only seek to live in peace with the rest of the world.

Oh? For example?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
By choosing to invade and oppress others they make themselves morally inferior to those who decline to invade and oppress others.
QED.

Please tell that to the Muslims who are invading Europe.

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 95

RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/26/2013 4:17:27 AM

Politesub53

Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn]

It seems to have escaped notice here that whatever foisted-upon 'statecraft' was not actually an "option" for those colonized. Or did you miss out on that fabled recent endeavor into imposing democracy, which is actually so hated in our own land?

Not every colony was founded in this way though. Much of the British Empire was founded on trade. Indeed, the US revolution was fought mainly by those with a European heritage.

quote:

How bizarre that is. Maybe the 'left' you're acquainted with are doing better drugs than those I'm acquainted with (leaving your own medications out of it for the instance), but the putative 'mutual benefit' in that Faustian deal has been both accepted practice and accepted knowledge for decades. Who gives a crap about Israel, other than being a ready and eager and ongoing source of antagonism to countries that stand over oil that Western countries have always considered their own.

It is also nonsense to think Israel was founded for the reasons you mentioned.

quote:

British and French and American et al. colonialism has done a world of good to the the Middle East, as we can see now, eh?

We see now how Egypt and India and Vietnam and Korea and S. Africa and Uruguay and Nigeria and etc. kneel before us in abject gratitude.

And yet the British Commonwealth still constitutes some fifty odd member States, including India and South Africa. Egypt was never a British Colony.

(in reply to Edwynn)

Post #: 96

RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/26/2013 4:23:27 AM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

I said they invaded afghanastan for the brits. Its pretty common knowledge that the taliban rejected running their pipeline through. thankfully their old pal osama came through for them. a us/brit joint venture. you have me confused with someone else. now by all means continue pounding.

You are talking bollocks again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CentGas

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 97

RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/26/2013 4:26:10 AM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Please tell that to the Muslims who are invading Europe.

It hardly takes a super genius to work out no one is invading Europe.

(in reply to Rule)

Post #: 98

RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/26/2013 4:44:41 AM

Rule

Posts: 10479
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Status: offline

There are about 44 million Muslims in Europe at the moment. In 2030 there will be about sixty million. How is that not an invasion by nearly one million Muslims per year?

Source

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to Politesub53)

Post #: 99

RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/26/2013 4:48:57 AM

SpanishMatMaster

Posts: 967
Joined: 9/28/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
I felt that a discussion about the distinctions in imperialism and colonialism you drew was in danger of becoming too technical for this forum. So I felt it best not to respond to your points, even tho I am far from convinced of the merits of your analysis (eg. I see the Occupation of Palestine as a neo-colonial issue with the struggle against white rule in apartheid Sth Africa the closest historical or real life parallel)

As you like. I do see the invasion of Palestine as an imperialist issue, not colonialist, and I think I can support it with very good facts. But make no big difference on the moral aspect so yes, it may count as "technicality" in this thread.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
BTW, there is a significant difference between 'feeling' aggressive and acting aggressively, as I am sure you're aware. The moral crux is located at the point where one begins to act aggressively towards others.

Ehm. You did realise that the part between "But I am..." and "Feel the logic. " was ironical, yes?
Now seriously... there are many moral "cruxes" between looking with anger and bombing a city. Many. Believe me. However, "looking with anger" is an act, not a feeling.

Best regards.

< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 6/26/2013 4:55:40 AM >

_____________________________

Humanist (therefore Atheist), intelligent, cultivated and very humble :)
If I don't answer you, maybe I "hid" you: PM me if you want.
“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, pause and reflect.” (Mark Twain)

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 100

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