RE: Racism & Sour Grapes in One Fell Swoop (Full Version)

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Kirata -> RE: Racism & Sour Grapes in One Fell Swoop (6/27/2013 4:25:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

To call stokley carmichel an uncle tom would be a racial insult....to call clarence thomas an uncle tom is a statement of fact.

Let me help you out here. To refer to Stokely Carmichael as "stokley carmichel" is an insult. To call him an Uncle Tom would be a joke. And to call Justice Thomas an Uncle Tom is a racial insult.

You're welcome.

K.



Phydeaux -> RE: Racism & Sour Grapes in One Fell Swoop (6/27/2013 4:48:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

And this guy is not a supporter of Civil Rights?


You have shown us the jobs he had...will you show us what he did in support of civil rights?



Why does he have to support "civil rights" to NOT be called a racial insult?

In fact.. why can't he disagree with you without you casting aspersions on his character.



evesgrden -> RE: Racism & Sour Grapes in One Fell Swoop (6/27/2013 5:05:33 PM)

quote:

Many people realize that calling a Black man an "Uncle Tom", is a racial insult.


The great irony of course is that Stowe's Uncle Tom died from being beaten to death.... for refusing to betray the whereabouts of runaway slaves. Incredibly brave and honorable.

Clarence Thomas has been accused of many things over the years... but that kind of self-sacrifice and moral conviction was not quite what anybody had in mind I don't think......




dcnovice -> RE: Racism & Sour Grapes in One Fell Swoop (6/27/2013 5:23:58 PM)

quote:

The great irony of course is that Stowe's Uncle Tom died from being beaten to death.... for refusing to betray the whereabouts of runaway slaves. Incredibly brave and honorable.

Thanks for pointing that out. It always irks me when he's maligned.



dcnovice -> RE: Racism & Sour Grapes in One Fell Swoop (6/27/2013 5:35:44 PM)

quote:

Lets look at the how well blacks have done under Democratic tutelage.

Turn of the century - % of 2 family homes: 98% (higher than whites as a matter of fact). Now 35% of black children have two parent homes
% of children born out of wedlock - less than 5%. Now 70% of black children are born out of wedlock.
% of black men in jail exceed the percent in college.
The National bureau of Economic research reports that economic segregation INCREASED.

A few thoughts:

-- I'm not quite sure what you mean by "tutelage."

-- For much of the 1900s, blacks were, I believe, more aligned with Republicans than Democrats. I don't think the shift toward the Democracy came until the Civil Rights movement and Nixon's "southern strategy."

-- It would be interesting to see whether the trends charted in your statistics are endemic to blacks or reflect changes in the larger society.

-- Throughout this period, Democrats and Republicans have alternated control of the White House and Congress. Have things been better for African Americans during GOP governance?

-- In 1900, Jim Crow reigned, lynchings were celebrated rather than punished, and voting was a lost hope for many (most?) African Americans. Do you really think blacks were better off then?

-- How did Democrats bring about economic segregation?



dcnovice -> RE: Racism & Sour Grapes in One Fell Swoop (6/27/2013 5:41:53 PM)

FR

In fairness to Justice Thomas (now there are words I never expected to type!), expecting a white judge to decided cases based on his or her race would rightly be condemned. Like everyone else on the bench, Thomas is charged with making the wisest and fairest decisions he can.



tazzygirl -> RE: Racism & Sour Grapes in One Fell Swoop (6/27/2013 5:54:26 PM)

quote:

Lets look at the how well blacks have done under Democratic tutelage.

Turn of the century - % of 2 family homes: 98% (higher than whites as a matter of fact). Now 35% of black children have two parent homes
% of children born out of wedlock - less than 5%. Now 70% of black children are born out of wedlock.
% of black men in jail exceed the percent in college.
The National bureau of Economic research reports that economic segregation INCREASED.

There has been no change in black unemployment (relative to whites) since statistics first started taking place.
African males participation in college, in medicine and in most professional fields has CRATERED, lower now than 32 years ago.


When you start tossing out stats, how about including the sources.

These figures arent "Now", they are 2006.

I want to clear this question up once and for all. It is said that 70% of black children are born to single mothers. Or 70% of black children don't have a father in the house.

This information is based on a 2006 study that documented the number of births that year.

Source: United States Center for Disease Control 2006 Census data:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr56/nvsr56_07.pdf

On page 6 it says...

70% of black women out of 617,220 births in the year 2006 were born to mothers who were not married at the time that they gave birth. This does not mean they did not marry later. It merely reflects their marital status at the time that they gave birth.

On the surface, this appears to be true based on what government agencies like the census and local offices are told.

This lie has been transmuted to several things. 70% of black women are unmarried, 70% of black women are single. 70% of black children don't have fathers. 70% of black households have no man in the house... and so on. You can google all of those phrases. 70% is the "catch all" number for all topics about black women now, and even credible news sources have not clarified this number. It's gone viral when there's really no truth to it.

How do you determine that only 35% of black children have a 2 parent home?



Marini -> RE: Racism & Sour Grapes in One Fell Swoop (6/27/2013 6:42:17 PM)

quote:

Let me help you out here. To refer to Stokely Carmichael as "stokley carmichel" is an insult. To call him an Uncle Tom would be a joke. And to call Justice Thomas an Uncle Tom is a racial insult.

You're welcome.
K.


[sm=applause.gif]
I think you sorted that one out very well!



fucktoyprincess -> RE: Racism & Sour Grapes in One Fell Swoop (6/27/2013 7:54:36 PM)

FR

Using the term "Uncle Tom" to describe someone's political convictions and attitudes towards racial issues is NOT racist when the term is an accurate description. Just like calling someone a neo-Nazi when they hold the same political convictions as Nazis is not racist. It is an accurate description of a political position and attitude towards racial issues.

And let's also make one thing very clear. Those of you who are relying on "appropriateness" make me laugh out loud. Seriously. There was a time when slavery was appropriate. That is reason enough not to use social acceptability as the benchmark of what is actually right and wrong. Some of you are getting caught up in worrying about what is socially correct. I say bullshit to that. If I worried about what was socially correct I sure as hell would not be part of the BDSM community. I am more concerned about whether the term as used is an accurate representation of Clarence Thomas. And I say IT IS. And I don't give a flying f*** about "social acceptability". Laughable truly, that people who are into BDSM are arguing that we must all adhere to rules of social acceptability. What hypocrisy. Think for yourselves people. Clarence Thomas has not done one single thing during his time on SCOTUS to help black people. He was nominated for SCOTUS and approved PRECISELY because white people knew he would vote against the interests of black people. And that is EXACTLY what he has done.

To those who keep raising the issue that Uncle Tom's character in the book actually died from being beaten to death for refusing to betray the whereabouts of runaway slaves - this is absolutely true of the book. HOWEVER, the term "Uncle Tom" has now evolved into an epithet for a person who is slavish and excessively subservient to perceived authority figures, particularly a black person who behaves in a subservient manner to white people; or any person perceived to be a participant in the oppression of their own group. In colonial India, people used the term to refer to Indians who were co-opted by the British to help rule the colony. It is not a term that is used only for black people. The term has evolved to define any person who aids in oppressing their own group. The term can also be used to describe white people. [sm=2cents.gif]



Marini -> RE: Racism & Sour Grapes in One Fell Swoop (6/27/2013 8:11:21 PM)

Me think thou doth protest too much.

Peace



evesgrden -> RE: Racism & Sour Grapes in One Fell Swoop (6/28/2013 4:59:08 AM)

FTP: Nail. Head. Bang.

It's about sucking up to and enabling a group you can never belong to, at the expense of the (typically oppressed) group that you do belong to.



Zonie63 -> RE: Racism & Sour Grapes in One Fell Swoop (6/28/2013 7:10:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

Clarence Thomas has not done one single thing during his time on SCOTUS to help black people. He was nominated for SCOTUS and approved PRECISELY because white people knew he would vote against the interests of black people. And that is EXACTLY what he has done.


I've never been a big fan of Thomas, nor do I care much about what he might get called. He was nominated by a Republican president, so his conservative leanings have been well-known and expected in his voting record. Liberals and conservatives may have a wide variance of disagreement on certain issues, although right or wrong, both sides would claim that they're "helping" the interests of their people. They just have different ideas as to what it means to "help," and that's where all the bickering comes in.


quote:


To those who keep raising the issue that Uncle Tom's character in the book actually died from being beaten to death for refusing to betray the whereabouts of runaway slaves - this is absolutely true of the book. HOWEVER, the term "Uncle Tom" has now evolved into an epithet for a person who is slavish and excessively subservient to perceived authority figures, particularly a black person who behaves in a subservient manner to white people; or any person perceived to be a participant in the oppression of their own group. In colonial India, people used the term to refer to Indians who were co-opted by the British to help rule the colony. It is not a term that is used only for black people. The term has evolved to define any person who aids in oppressing their own group. The term can also be used to describe white people. [sm=2cents.gif]


I think there are some white people who may have felt pressured in that way, probably more in my grandparents' time than now. I don't recall ever hearing a white person called "Uncle Tom," although there are a few other nasty terms I've heard in the past. I've heard similar words used within other races as equivalents of "Uncle Tom," although I didn't know that they used the exact term.

It may or may not be an accurate term, but there's also the question of whether it's really necessary or a logical response to the situation.



sissibaby -> RE: Racism & Sour Grapes in One Fell Swoop (6/28/2013 7:19:41 AM)

stupidity is not a political party and though lately it seems there is an overwhelming degree of it amongst the republicans, they certainly dont have the market cornered. Remember one word here "POLITICIAN" that sizes it up completely!



Phydeaux -> RE: Racism & Sour Grapes in One Fell Swoop (6/28/2013 11:42:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Lets look at the how well blacks have done under Democratic tutelage.

Turn of the century - % of 2 family homes: 98% (higher than whites as a matter of fact). Now 35% of black children have two parent homes
% of children born out of wedlock - less than 5%. Now 70% of black children are born out of wedlock.
% of black men in jail exceed the percent in college.
The National bureau of Economic research reports that economic segregation INCREASED.

There has been no change in black unemployment (relative to whites) since statistics first started taking place.
African males participation in college, in medicine and in most professional fields has CRATERED, lower now than 32 years ago.


When you start tossing out stats, how about including the sources.

These figures arent "Now", they are 2006.

I want to clear this question up once and for all. It is said that 70% of black children are born to single mothers. Or 70% of black children don't have a father in the house.

This information is based on a 2006 study that documented the number of births that year.

Source: United States Center for Disease Control 2006 Census data:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr56/nvsr56_07.pdf

On page 6 it says...

70% of black women out of 617,220 births in the year 2006 were born to mothers who were not married at the time that they gave birth. This does not mean they did not marry later. It merely reflects their marital status at the time that they gave birth.

On the surface, this appears to be true based on what government agencies like the census and local offices are told.

This lie has been transmuted to several things. 70% of black women are unmarried, 70% of black women are single. 70% of black children don't have fathers. 70% of black households have no man in the house... and so on. You can google all of those phrases. 70% is the "catch all" number for all topics about black women now, and even credible news sources have not clarified this number. It's gone viral when there's really no truth to it.

How do you determine that only 35% of black children have a 2 parent home?



How about we argue the point instead of citations.

My thesis is that the explosion of black illegitimacy occurred under the social policies that have been promulgated in the 20th century, most at the behest of democrats. That there has been concomitant destruction of the black family. That the social policies that were suppose to end discrimination in the workplace have been an abject failure. I would add that our educational policies have been a complete disaster for black males.

Feel free to provide cites showing the opposite - that families are on the rise. That black men participation in higher education is on the rise. That the trillions of dollars we have spent have eradicated work place discrimination.




Phydeaux -> RE: Racism & Sour Grapes in One Fell Swoop (6/28/2013 12:06:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Lets look at the how well blacks have done under Democratic tutelage.

Turn of the century - % of 2 family homes: 98% (higher than whites as a matter of fact). Now 35% of black children have two parent homes
% of children born out of wedlock - less than 5%. Now 70% of black children are born out of wedlock.
% of black men in jail exceed the percent in college.
The National bureau of Economic research reports that economic segregation INCREASED.

A few thoughts:

-- I'm not quite sure what you mean by "tutelage."

-- For much of the 1900s, blacks were, I believe, more aligned with Republicans than Democrats. I don't think the shift toward the Democracy came until the Civil Rights movement and Nixon's "southern strategy."

-- It would be interesting to see whether the trends charted in your statistics are endemic to blacks or reflect changes in the larger society.

-- Throughout this period, Democrats and Republicans have alternated control of the White House and Congress. Have things been better for African Americans during GOP governance?

-- In 1900, Jim Crow reigned, lynchings were celebrated rather than punished, and voting was a lost hope for many (most?) African Americans. Do you really think blacks were better off then?

-- How did Democrats bring about economic segregation?



Black realignment occured mostly under the new deal.

The trends are not endemic to blacks - but they are far more severe in the black population.

While it is true that Democrats and Republicans have alternated control, republicans have passed virtually no social legislation that "advanced' civil rights. So this entire social direction we've been taking is following a democrat pied-piper.

It was a republican president and a republican congress that passed the 13-15th amendments. It was the republican party that was specifically formed as an abolitionist party. And lynchings etc occurred under DEMOCRAT governors, not republicans, in the 1870's - 1900s.

regarding economic segregation: The democrats didn't bring about economic segregation. They promulgated policies that designed to end it. De facto (as opposed to de jure) segregation continues to exist despite flushing trillions of dollars down this pipedream.

Let me give you a small example.

The laws on minimum wage.
It is commonly held that increasing the minimum wage is a good thing.
But the unintended consequences are *huge*. Black men and women are discriminated against. A minimum wage eliminates jobs. It eliminates the opportunity for many people to get their foot in the door and get the experience that will allow them to be successful later in life. Getting that foot in the door is especially important for minorities, and people that don't have succesful high school and college degrees.

How is it that the illegal immigrant community - works without the benefit of a minimum wage do you suppose. And millions of them have gone on to own homes. Put kids through college.

The legislation was designed to lift living standards. Which it did for some. But at cost for others.



dcnovice -> RE: Racism & Sour Grapes in One Fell Swoop (6/28/2013 2:07:24 PM)

quote:

Black realignment occured mostly under the new deal.

From what I've read, it sounds like African Americans began voting (when they could) Democratic in FDR's day but didn't identify themselves as Democrats till later.

quote:

The trends are not endemic to blacks - but they are far more severe in the black population.

Any theories why?

quote:

While it is true that Democrats and Republicans have alternated control, republicans have passed virtually no social legislation that "advanced' civil rights. So this entire social direction we've been taking is following a democrat pied-piper.

When you say "civil rights," do you mean things like desegregation and voting rights? Or are you talking about economic programs, which are different and apply to the whole population?

quote:

It was a republican president and a republican congress that passed the 13-15th amendments. It was the republican party that was specifically formed as an abolitionist party. And lynchings etc occurred under DEMOCRAT governors, not republicans, in the 1870's - 1900s.

Very true. It took Democrats far too long to see the light. And it wasn't easy. As LBJ said after signing one of the civil rights bills, "We've just lost the South for a generation." The GOP, interestingly, launched its "Southern Strategy" at the same time. I wonder what Charles Sumner or Thaddeus Stevens would have made of that.

quote:

regarding economic segregation: The democrats didn't bring about economic segregation. They promulgated policies that designed to end it. De facto (as opposed to de jure) segregation continues to exist despite flushing trillions of dollars down this pipedream.

I'm not sure it was all a "pipe dream."

[image]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/TJgxEwPv7RI/AAAAAAAAObs/AU8XbvZCSdo/s1600/poverty.jpg[/image]

quote:

Let me give you a small example.

I understand the unintended consequences of the minimum wage (though I'm not sure I've ever heard them articulated by someone living on it), but it seems an odd example of economic segregation. Doesn't segregation mean living and working apart?

quote:

How is it that the illegal immigrant community - works without the benefit of a minimum wage do you suppose. And millions of them have gone on to own homes. Put kids through college.

Should blacks use illegal immigrants as role models then? [:)]

More seriously, their buying homes and sending kids to college seems more like integration than segregation.

* * *

I'm intrigued by the one question of mine that you didn't answer: Were blacks, as you seemed to be arguing, better off in 1900?



thompsonx -> RE: Racism & Sour Grapes in One Fell Swoop (6/28/2013 2:25:42 PM)

quote:

How about we argue the point instead of citations.

My thesis is that the explosion of black illegitimacy occurred under the social policies that have been promulgated in the 20th century, most at the behest of democrats.


How would that compare to the black illigitimacy rate 1603-1900?

quote:

That there has been concomitant destruction of the black family.


Is it your position that slavery held families together?

quote:

That the social policies that were suppose to end discrimination in the workplace have been an abject failure. I would add that our educational policies have been a complete disaster for black males.


How many black male college grads from 1603-1900?
How many black male college grads from 1900-2013?
How has "integration in the work place been an abject failure?


quote:

Feel free to provide cites showing the opposite


Feel free to prove any of the above opinions.



thompsonx -> RE: Racism & Sour Grapes in One Fell Swoop (6/28/2013 2:32:30 PM)

quote:

How is it that the illegal immigrant community - works without the benefit of a minimum wage do you suppose. And millions of them have gone on to own homes. Put kids through college.


How so?



thompsonx -> RE: Racism & Sour Grapes in One Fell Swoop (6/28/2013 2:34:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

To call stokley carmichel an uncle tom would be a racial insult....to call clarence thomas an uncle tom is a statement of fact.

Let me help you out here. To refer to Stokely Carmichael as "stokley carmichel" is an insult. To call him an Uncle Tom would be a joke. And to call Justice Thomas an Uncle Tom is a racial insult.

You're welcome.

K.


It would appear that we disgree.



thompsonx -> RE: Racism & Sour Grapes in One Fell Swoop (6/28/2013 2:40:15 PM)

quote:

A minimum wage eliminates jobs.


Any proof for this opinion?



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