RE: Racism & Sour Grapes in One Fell Swoop (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion



Message

mnottertail -> RE: Racism & Sour Grapes in One Fell Swoop (6/28/2013 2:51:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

A minimum wage eliminates jobs.


Any proof for this opinion?



It is a reasonable statement; Huntie. If corporations could pay you 50 cents a day, here in the US, the newspapers would brim with jobs on offer, would they not?




thompsonx -> RE: Racism & Sour Grapes in One Fell Swoop (6/28/2013 2:57:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

And this guy is not a supporter of Civil Rights?


You have shown us the jobs he had...will you show us what he did in support of civil rights?



quote:

Why does he have to support "civil rights" to NOT be called a racial insult?


I did not say that.Do not attempt to put words in my mouth.
When it was pointed out that his civil rights "creds" were that he had held several civil rights posts, I asked what he did in those posts.

quote:

In fact.. why can't he disagree with you without you casting aspersions on his character.



Why do you feel that stating the truth is casting aspersions on ones character...wouldn't one think that his actions cast the only meaningful aspersions?
If someone puts a cock in their mouth and sucks then they are ipso facto a cock sucker. If a cocksucker behaves like an uncle tom then that cock sucker is an uncle tom.
This is nothing more than an attempt to "play the race card"



thompsonx -> RE: Racism & Sour Grapes in One Fell Swoop (6/28/2013 2:59:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

quote:

Let me help you out here. To refer to Stokely Carmichael as "stokley carmichel" is an insult. To call him an Uncle Tom would be a joke. And to call Justice Thomas an Uncle Tom is a racial insult.

You're welcome.
K.


[sm=applause.gif]
I think you sorted that one out very well!

It would appear that thee and me disagree



thompsonx -> RE: Racism & Sour Grapes in One Fell Swoop (6/28/2013 3:01:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

A minimum wage eliminates jobs.


Any proof for this opinion?



It is a reasonable statement; Huntie. If corporations could pay you 50 cents a day, here in the US, the newspapers would brim with jobs on offer, would they not?




Who would work for .50 per day?



Phydeaux -> RE: Racism & Sour Grapes in One Fell Swoop (6/28/2013 3:06:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

A minimum wage eliminates jobs.


Any proof for this opinion?



It is a reasonable statement; Huntie. If corporations could pay you 50 cents a day, here in the US, the newspapers would brim with jobs on offer, would they not?




Who would work for .50 per day?



The fact that you even ask the question shows how little depth of experience you have.

Many people worked as unpaid interns in the hope of landing a paid gig thereafter. At least until the govt under obama made it illegal.

But you miss the larger point. If you could apprentice a skill that would let you make $100/hr would you not accept a apprenticship where you were not paid? Might you not?

And the second, larger point is that the minimum wage is depriving people of the opportunity of getting their foot in the door.



Phydeaux -> RE: Racism & Sour Grapes in One Fell Swoop (6/28/2013 3:11:19 PM)


quote:



Why do you feel that stating the truth is casting aspersions on ones character...wouldn't one think that his actions cast the only meaningful aspersions?
If someone puts a cock in their mouth and sucks then they are ipso facto a cock sucker. If a cocksucker behaves like an uncle tom then that cock sucker is an uncle tom.
This is nothing more than an attempt to "play the race card"




And a racist (you) is a racist.

Because "uncle-tom" is a race insult.
It isn't how clarence thomas acts that is at issue here. Regardless of how what you think, he deserves not to be subjected to racial insults.




Phydeaux -> RE: Racism & Sour Grapes in One Fell Swoop (6/28/2013 3:20:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

How about we argue the point instead of citations.

My thesis is that the explosion of black illegitimacy occurred under the social policies that have been promulgated in the 20th century, most at the behest of democrats.


How would that compare to the black illigitimacy rate 1603-1900?

quote:

That there has been concomitant destruction of the black family.


Is it your position that slavery held families together?

quote:

That the social policies that were suppose to end discrimination in the workplace have been an abject failure. I would add that our educational policies have been a complete disaster for black males.


How many black male college grads from 1603-1900?
How many black male college grads from 1900-2013?
How has "integration in the work place been an abject failure?


quote:

Feel free to provide cites showing the opposite


Feel free to prove any of the above opinions.



I'll spell it out slowly so you perhaps can understand.

My thesis is that democratic policies enacted in the 20th century have had huge deleterious and oft ignored effects on blacks. Notably in the areas of black family, illegitimate births, high school and college matriculation and graduation.

Black illegitimacy rate in 1603 is unrelated.
The role of slavery is unrelated.
The number of black male college grads in 1603 is unrelated.

If you want to make an argument about the number of black male college grads 1900-2013 please feel free to do so.





dcnovice -> RE: Racism & Sour Grapes in One Fell Swoop (6/28/2013 3:22:12 PM)

quote:

It isn't how clarence thomas acts that is at issue here. Regardless of how what you think, he deserves not to be subjected to racial insults.

Phydeaux and I have been disagreeing all afternoon, but I have to second him here.

"Uncle Tom" is a racial insult (based, as was noted, on ignorance of Stowe's novel) for two reasons:

-- It's hurled exclusively at African Americans.

-- It embodies the appalling idea that all blacks should think, act, or decide law cases in the same way (an expectation never held for whites) and that that way should be rooted in racial identity rather than one's own thinking.



Phydeaux -> RE: Racism & Sour Grapes in One Fell Swoop (6/28/2013 3:37:39 PM)


quote:

The trends are not endemic to blacks - but they are far more severe in the black population.

Any theories why?

Because they were more of an atrisk population at the onset. Education, racism and other things meant that blacks started out with a poor hand when the war on poverty rolled around.

Snowball effect. Social security counted a males income against the womans benefits. So it was easier to live apart and collect benefits. This led to more teen-age pregnancy, truancy, and the cycle of poverty continues.

My point is what started as a huge altruistic and positive effect had huge and negative unintended consequences.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The pretty graph you provided doesn't prove anything.

We can end poverty for as long as we want by simply giving every poor person money. The question is... what happens when you run out of money (as is happening now).

It has never been shown that our anti-poverty policies are effective at ending poverty. To quote the old adage - build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

IF we had taken the same money that we provided in war on poverty and instead allocated it to research, and to education where would we be now?

Finally, goverment employment has been one of the avenues lifting blacks out of poverty. But in may ways these aren't 'real jobs' they are patronage jobs that are subject to the party in power or the current system of government. When the party in power occurs, or the systems change, you have millions of people with job skills that no one will touch.

```````````````````````````````````````````

You asked me are blacks better off now than they were in 1900. I didn't answer because its an irrelevent question. The appropriate question is have the policies of the democrats helped or hurt?

and personally, while i aknowledge the benefits, I think the costs are poorly known.



evesgrden -> RE: Racism & Sour Grapes in One Fell Swoop (6/28/2013 4:27:52 PM)

quote:

Feel free to provide cites showing the opposite - that families are on the rise. That black men participation in higher education is on the rise. That the trillions of dollars we have spent have eradicated work place discrimination.


Teen pregnancy in black girls between the ages of 15-19 dropped from 116/1000 to 64/1000 between 1990 and 2007. That's almost a 50% drop. You need to define "family" to see whether it's on the rise or decline, and then that trend needs to be compared to whites and see what difference lies between them.

Black undergraduate enrollment in degree granting institutions rose from 943,355 in 1976 to 2,269,284 in 2008.

(http://www.air.org/files/AIR-NCESracial_stats__trends1.pdf)


If you can tell me what your yardstick is for measuring discrimination in the workplace, perhaps I can find some stats for you. Some might suggest that having a black president and a black supreme court justice might be indicative of progress when it comes to discrimination.

Besides, the money spent has made discrimination punishable by law. As nice as it would be to eradicate it, it would also be nice to eradicate theft and murder and fraud.. and a host of other crimes. Just because a problem has not been eradicated doesn't mean that we shouldn't address the problem.




LookieNoNookie -> RE: Racism & Sour Grapes in One Fell Swoop (6/28/2013 5:12:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

He's sorry, though.


People say un PC shit.

It ain't the end of the world.



DaddySatyr -> RE: Racism & Sour Grapes in One Fell Swoop (6/28/2013 5:36:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

People say un PC shit.

It ain't the end of the world.



I don't recall running up and down the street with a sandwich board and bell.

I did make the point that I thought his denial was pure, undiluted bullshit.

Thank you for taking the tme to read my posts, though.



Peace and comfort,



Michael



tazzygirl -> RE: Racism & Sour Grapes in One Fell Swoop (6/28/2013 5:58:04 PM)

quote:

My thesis is that the explosion of black illegitimacy occurred under the social policies that have been promulgated in the 20th century, most at the behest of democrats.


You are well aware that slaves were not allowed to be "legally" married, and that all their children were "illegitimate"... thats a legal term... and definitely has no place in current day discussions.

Again, your own morality is dictating how others should view things.

Women didnt put men's names on birth certificates for a very important reason... men were in the home, raising the children along side the mothers, claiming those children as theirs. Yet income disparity made it almost impossible to raise a child on their income, so they cheated the system and told the system dad was not around.

But, your insistence that this all began in the 20th century is sorta laughable.



Phydeaux -> RE: Racism & Sour Grapes in One Fell Swoop (6/28/2013 6:14:33 PM)

You're missing the point taz.

I'm saying democratic policies made some things worse in the 20th century.

19th century events are therefore irrelevent.



Phydeaux -> RE: Racism & Sour Grapes in One Fell Swoop (6/28/2013 6:34:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: evesgrden

quote:

Feel free to provide cites showing the opposite - that families are on the rise. That black men participation in higher education is on the rise. That the trillions of dollars we have spent have eradicated work place discrimination.


Teen pregnancy in black girls between the ages of 15-19 dropped from 116/1000 to 64/1000 between 1990 and 2007. That's almost a 50% drop. You need to define "family" to see whether it's on the rise or decline, and then that trend needs to be compared to whites and see what difference lies between them.

Black undergraduate enrollment in degree granting institutions rose from 943,355 in 1976 to 2,269,284 in 2008.

(http://www.air.org/files/AIR-NCESracial_stats__trends1.pdf)


If you can tell me what your yardstick is for measuring discrimination in the workplace, perhaps I can find some stats for you. Some might suggest that having a black president and a black supreme court justice might be indicative of progress when it comes to discrimination.

Besides, the money spent has made discrimination punishable by law. As nice as it would be to eradicate it, it would also be nice to eradicate theft and murder and fraud.. and a host of other crimes. Just because a problem has not been eradicated doesn't mean that we shouldn't address the problem.



Thanks for the reasonable msg. As for your stats -


Lies, damn lies, and statistics. While that narrow window for teen pregnancy shows improvement it ignores
a) that the teen pregnancy rate is still more than 2.5 times that for whites.

Regarding college education - I specifically said black males.
Regarding economic segregation - I'll accept what % of income do blacks earn vs whites? Show me that the trillions of dollars spent has bridged the gap.




dcnovice -> RE: Racism & Sour Grapes in One Fell Swoop (6/28/2013 6:37:12 PM)

quote:

Because they were more of an atrisk population at the onset. Education, racism and other things meant that blacks started out with a poor hand when the war on poverty rolled around.

Indeed. Given that blacks were shafted decades, even centuries, before FDR took office, it seems a bit ahistorical to blame the Democrats for their plight.

quote:

Social security counted a males income against the womans benefits. So it was easier to live apart and collect benefits. This led to more teen-age pregnancy, truancy, and the cycle of poverty continues.

Weren't the rules for Social Security, and other programs, the same for all races? If so, the disparately dire effect on blacks would seem to stem from a factor other than the programs themselves.

quote:

The pretty graph you provided doesn't prove anything.

It shows that poverty nose-dived during the Great Society years and hasn't climbed back anywhere near where it was. You may discount that, but it made--and makes--a huge difference in millions of lives.

quote:

We can end poverty for as long as we want by simply giving every poor person money. The question is... what happens when you run out of money (as is happening now).

Are you really arguing that we're running out of money because of antipoverty programs? The largest entitlement programs are not specific to the poor, nor is it their fault we've had three decades of denial about our revenue needs. And I think the guys who launched wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were pretty well-heeled.

quote:

It has never been shown that our anti-poverty policies are effective at ending poverty.

As noted above, the poverty rate plummeted. How are you defining "effective"?

quote:

IF we had taken the same money that we provided in war on poverty and instead allocated it to research, and to education where would we be now?

Much less far along than if we'd done that with money allocated for weapons the Pentagon doesn't even want or corporate subsidies or Midlde East quagmires.

quote:

Finally, goverment employment has been one of the avenues lifting blacks out of poverty. But in may ways these aren't 'real jobs' they are patronage jobs that are subject to the party in power or the current system of government. When the party in power occurs, or the systems change, you have millions of people with job skills that no one will touch.

Are you talking Federal jobs? Aren't most of them Civil Service positions whose incumbents remain in place despite regime change?

quote:

You asked me are blacks better off now than they were in 1900. I didn't answer because its an irrelevent question. The appropriate question is have the policies of the democrats helped or hurt?

Are you serious? How can you assess whether something has helped or hurt without answering the key question of whether one is better off? You were the one serving up a platter of 1900-present statistics, all apparently intended to show how Democratic policies have worsened life for blacks. So why the hesitation to say blacks were better off then? Or do your stats not mean what you seemed to imply that they did?



Owner59 -> RE: Racism & Sour Grapes in One Fell Swoop (6/28/2013 6:50:55 PM)

There was a time when prejustice was pretty much prevalent through out all government, state, local and federal.Writing bigotry and repression right into the very laws.


True, decades ago, it was democrats who did much of the damage and passed many of the ugly and immoral laws that targeted blacks.This was mostly true because the democrats pretty much held the most political power.Nothing would have been different if republicans were in charge.


True, the republicans, under Lincoln, were the 1st to put blacks into office(at gun point) and help get blacks elected to office just after the Civil War.But that lasted about zilch and those seats were soon stolen, by bigoted whites.


The democrats had no monopoly on KKK membership. What the republican party had turned into after Lincoln died, was as much involved with the KKk as democrats were in the south, where most blacks lived.

It`s history and true and can`t be denied.

But history doesn`t end.....it goes from back then to now and cherry picking the parts of history that suit your argument is denial.

Eventually, the democrats, under Lyndon Johnson, pretty much asked the bigots to leave the party,when we passed the voting rights acts.

And many did and many joined the republican party, like Strom "Nigeria" Thurmond....To stay in the democratic party, you had renounce bigotry.....as Byrd did.

And hey,time and history marches on and we find ourselves today,with Lincoln`s party relentlessly trying to suppress the black(and poor) vote.

The cons whine about an extra letter from the IRS while stealing freedom and liberty from Americans.

There`s a reason why there are so few blacks in the gop.....and it`s not blacks.

The gop should be careful not to be to successful at their wholesale persecution and political alienation of minorities......these folks are going to be whipping their old angry white asses, when they are no longer able to.



dcnovice -> RE: Racism & Sour Grapes in One Fell Swoop (6/28/2013 7:16:57 PM)

quote:

Lies, damn lies, and statistics.

Wasn't your whole argument rooted in statistics?

quote:

Regarding college education - I specifically said black males.

Why only males? Do women not count?



trewsubversion -> RE: Racism & Sour Grapes in One Fell Swoop (6/29/2013 6:44:10 AM)

.



dcnovice -> RE: Racism & Sour Grapes in One Fell Swoop (6/29/2013 6:54:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: trewsubversion

.

Awesome first post! [:)]

But seriously, welcome to the wacky world of Collarchat.



Page: <<   < prev  2 3 4 [5] 6   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
5.078125E-02