RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE

RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (Full Version)

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DarkSteven -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (6/29/2013 7:32:19 AM)
It's gonna be an acquittal. No proof that Martin wasn't pounding Zimmerman, or that Martin didn't throw the first punch. Zimmerman's story has been consistent throughout. Unless the prosecution can punch holes in it, he won't be convicted. Based on Martin's fighting training, testimony, and the fact that he was in a lot better shape, I assume that he was on top of Zimmerman when Zimmerman pulled the gun and fired.

mnottertail -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (6/29/2013 7:37:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Raiikun quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Exactly. So like I said, the noble stand your ground defense yiu put up and was such a winner turned into a dog. The legal analysts are pretty much wrong, because it was already ruled that it has no bearing since Geo didnt know anything about Martin. And it would hurt his case more than help to bring it up. Evidence about fighting doesn't require George to know anything about Trayvon. The jury is allowed to use comparative physical abilities of the two in their judgement, so Trayvon's experience fighting would go to that. But the judge has already disallowed it. Title XLVI CRIMES Chapter 776 JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE View Entire Chapter 776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who: (1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or (2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless: (a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or (b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

Raiikun -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (6/29/2013 7:50:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail quote: ORIGINAL: Raiikun quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Exactly. So like I said, the noble stand your ground defense yiu put up and was such a winner turned into a dog. The legal analysts are pretty much wrong, because it was already ruled that it has no bearing since Geo didnt know anything about Martin. And it would hurt his case more than help to bring it up. Evidence about fighting doesn't require George to know anything about Trayvon. The jury is allowed to use comparative physical abilities of the two in their judgement, so Trayvon's experience fighting would go to that. But the judge has already disallowed it. Title XLVI CRIMES Chapter 776 JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE View Entire Chapter 776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who: (1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or (2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless: (a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or (b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force. She ruled that Trayvon's text messages needed to be authenticated first. And thanks for quoting the statute that proves me right. And meanwhile since no evidence is in play yet proving George is the aggressor, the aggressor clause is not likely to even be read to the jury. It wasn't read when Nelson read the instructions to the jury during selection.

mnottertail -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (6/29/2013 7:55:46 AM)
I have quoted the one that proves a clear case of Dunning-Kruger on your behalf. What will be at issue is that. Whether or not he has exhausted every other reasonable means prior..........and we don't have much of that evidence, not evident in the following, the re-following, the argument, even had he pulled his gun out prior to the fistfight.........but we have no proof of exhaustion of other means yet, unless something is out there that we are unaware of. But there wouldnt be, given rules of evidence. 12 reasonable men will have to decide the exhaustion, and I don't see 12 reasonable men doing so.

mnottertail -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (6/29/2013 8:00:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Raiikun quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 Well, George starting out at his car and ending up just behind the kids home tells normal folks that he closed the distance between them.......ie pursued him. There was no 'behind Trayvon's home'. Multiple witnesses heard the fight start over 300 feet away, much nearer to George's truck than Trayvon's home. the fight STARTED over 300 feet away and George did not leave, I don't see exhaustion here, he has not met the burden of the proof according to statute, and it is his to meet. He has admitted the CRIME.

tj444 -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (6/29/2013 8:04:24 AM)
Martins girlfriend stated Martin told her he was being followed by a "creepy ass cracker" and she also stated that the "creepy ass" part meant "perv"/"pervert".. If some pervert is following you, even if you are a young athletic male, you will imo be panicked.. I have been followed before and that is how I have felt.. I expect to a black person, someone that looks like a skinhead nutbar is extremely disconcerting.. When some perv/nutbar is following you, the last thing you want to do is lead them directly to your home!.. Being followed is what led to the altercation, imo Martin had just as much right if not more to stand his ground as Zimmy did... That said, I doubt Zimmy will be convicted (even tho I feel he should be).. even if he isnt tho, I expect the IRS will be after him for taxes on donations if they have not been paid, and I expect he will not have an easy time finding a job unless he changes his name.. Zimmy is the architect of the situation he finds himself in..

vincentML -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (6/29/2013 8:07:35 AM)
quote: 12 reasonable men will have to decide the exhaustion, and I don't see 12 reasonable men doing so. Six women actually.

mnottertail -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (6/29/2013 8:13:07 AM)
in the synecdoche it is 12 reasonable men. The reality is it is six hysterical women according to some. But yea, sorry 6 women, I should be punctilious here.

vincentML -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (6/29/2013 8:20:00 AM)
quote: Title XLVI CRIMES Chapter 776 JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE View Entire Chapter 776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who: (1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or (2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless: (a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or (b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force. Tail . . . all your legalese will come to naught when these six ladies get in that room and start contemplating the image of Martin sitting on top of Zimmer and punching down at him. The image is more difinitive than all the legal tangle of this or that statute. Those ladies will sympathize with George.

Raiikun -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (6/29/2013 8:21:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail quote: ORIGINAL: Raiikun quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 Well, George starting out at his car and ending up just behind the kids home tells normal folks that he closed the distance between them.......ie pursued him. There was no 'behind Trayvon's home'. Multiple witnesses heard the fight start over 300 feet away, much nearer to George's truck than Trayvon's home. the fight STARTED over 300 feet away and George did not leave, I don't see exhaustion here, he has not met the burden of the proof according to statute, and it is his to meet. He has admitted the CRIME. He was on the ground with Trayvon on top. Thus, with no reasonable (important word that) avenue of retreat at the moment he fired. And no, he has admitted to no crime. He has admitted to a shooting, which in itself is not a crime. Also, the burden of proof is on the prosecution. Not George.

mnottertail -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (6/29/2013 8:25:57 AM)
The fight started where and ended where? The exhaustion of escape was where? Did Trayvon drag him? Nobody gives a fuck about the moment of the shot, he has admitted that crime, he now has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he meets the statute exception, for an aggressor. It isn't like he was locked in a bathroom with the guy. Therein will lie the rub, no more and no less, the rest is ornamentation.

Raiikun -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (6/29/2013 8:31:08 AM)
No, George does not have to prove anything, and admitted no crime.

mnottertail -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (6/29/2013 8:32:07 AM)
That is not what the statute says. Clearly.

vincentML -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (6/29/2013 8:34:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail The fight started where and ended where? The exhaustion of escape was where? Did Trayvon drag him? Nobody gives a fuck about the moment of the shot, he has admitted that crime, he now has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he meets the statute exception, for an aggressor. It isn't like he was locked in a bathroom with the guy. Therein will lie the rub, no more and no less, the rest is ornamentation. News to me that a defendent has to prove innocence beyond a reasonable doubt. Did I miss something above?

Raiikun -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (6/29/2013 8:36:06 AM)
The State has to prove that George was the aggressor for that apply. If they do (they haven't yet), then they have to prove that George was not in imminent fear of death, or that George had a reasonable method of retreat. The prosecution has to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. Then, if they get past that, the State still has to prove ill-will, hatred, or spite, again, beyond a reasonable doubt.

Raiikun -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (6/29/2013 8:38:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail That is not what the statute says. Clearly. The statute doesn't mention burden of proof at all. The jury instructions, however, clearly say that if there is ANY reasonable doubt whether the defendant's use of force is justified, then he is not guilty.

mnottertail -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (6/29/2013 9:02:17 AM)
Not so, there is the old imperfect self-defense which will lead to manslaughter. The statute does not have to mention burden of proof, he has admitted to killing him, his defense is self-defense. If he doesn't show any proof that he tried to get away, or that he wasn't the agressor, then a quick reading of the statute (because by god that is what the prosecution is arguing, he doesnt meet the exception in the statute based on his testimony and the testimony of others) then what you got? He definitely did not meet the definition of a stand your ground as you have so adamantly stated he did, and it is very iffy that he can meet the self defense exemption, because, we do not have any indication that he exhausted shit.....he didnt try to get away from the argument, the escalating situation. We have no testimony that he was not the aggressor

Raiikun -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (6/29/2013 9:10:29 AM)
The prosecution has to prove George is the aggressor.

DomKen -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (6/29/2013 9:12:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Raiikun Also fascinating... With all the national appearances Trayvon's mom made talking about how good he was...Trayvon's text messages show that she had kicked him out of the house for causing trouble. So? Does being a teenager now equal a death sentence?

Raiikun -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (6/29/2013 9:14:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Not so, there is the old imperfect self-defense which will lead to manslaughter. You should look up the definition of manslaughter in Florida. It includes specifying that if use of force is justified ( is, self defense) then it isn't manslaughter.

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