quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

The burden of proof is lower, it is still up to the jury whether that is sufficient.


Again, where is the exhaustion of escape?

I am still waiting on the appellate court citation, btw.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LeesaLove

Oi. *facepalm*

I do not believe Zimmerman thought "I need to kill him." before shooting his weapon. I think he panicked and just wanted Martin to back off. That is why I think it should be involuntary manslaughter. Zimmerman, in my belief, did not have a malice thought. I also do not think he deserves 10+ years to life in prison. I do not think he is a menace to society. This is about justice, not revenge. People seem to mistake that, greatly, in our justice system.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

I wouldn't go so far to say murder is legal in Florida, but that is indeed the standard. The prosecution is required to disprove self defense beyond a reasonable doubt before before the jury can really even consider if the State has proven the elements of the crime.

Any evidence of self defense is as simple as Ziimerman's unsupported assertions.

Overcoming that beyond a reasonable doubt would require something like a video tape or multiple independent witnesses disputing the claims.

Murder is legal in Florida as long as you don't do it in front of a camera or a bunch of people who don't like you.

Hopefully Zimmerman gets convicted and then overturned at the appellate level so this can reach the federal courts. This standard is both ridiculous and unconstitutional.

George's assertions are quite supporters. Witnesses heard the encounter start where he said it started. A witness saw Trayvon on top of George, where George said, seconds before the shot, with what looked like raining down blows on him.

George had a busted nose, scalp lacerations, and bruising and lumps on all sides of his head. The crime scene tech and physician assistant both pointed out these lumps to the jury.

Forensics show Trayvon on top of George at the moment the shot was fired.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Nobody gives a fuck about that, he has admitted to the murder, he is seeking the statute exception of self defense, he had several chances to cease his aggravated stalking, (one of the issues in 2nd degree murder) his aggressor stance, he could have left at any time prior to being knocked down, say, during the shouting match which went on for how long?

Anywhere from his truck to where Martin was found, or even before. Unless Martin dragged him to the spot, near dead, I don't see any exhaustion of escape attempts prior to the murder.

If it is self defense, then by definition it was not murder.

Thus, George has admitted to no murder.

If it was self defense, and he has not met the statute requirements in any way I can see by anyones testimony, he has admitted to killing the guy, that is murder if it is not self defense, and that is what they are charging him with, if he doesn't have a reasonable shot at convincing the jurors he has met the statute (he will or not testify do you think?) then he has admitted to murder.

He can hardly say, no, I guess I didn't kill him, that would be all in all done according to statute.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Will anyone believe that as reasonable people? He was following him right up until he killed the guy.


Yeah, iffy if he gets convicted or not, but it aint any can of corn.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LeesaLove

Oi. *facepalm*

I do not believe Zimmerman thought "I need to kill him." before shooting his weapon. I think he panicked and just wanted Martin to back off. That is why I think it should be involuntary manslaughter. Zimmerman, in my belief, did not have a malice thought. I also do not think he deserves 10+ years to life in prison. I do not think he is a menace to society. This is about justice, not revenge. People seem to mistake that, greatly, in our justice system.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

So far all the prosecution witnesses have undermined their case and the cracker comment has shown that it was Martin who has engaged in racial profiling.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

If George had stayed in/at his car, the boy would have made it home.
If Trayvon had stayed home, he would been home.

There would have been no incident.
There would have been no incident.


There is no denying that.
There is no denying that.

I may be confused, but are you trying to say that this was all Trayvon's fault because he decided to walk to the store?

Nope. Not trying to say that at all. Might you be confused like I might have been, but was Owner59 trying to say the this was all George's fault because he decided to try and find out what someone who was walking around inside a gated-community, in the rain, at night, what they were doing there?

quote:

ORIGINAL: LeesaLove

Oi. *facepalm*

I do not believe Zimmerman thought "I need to kill him." before shooting his weapon. I think he panicked and just wanted Martin to back off. That is why I think it should be involuntary manslaughter. Zimmerman, in my belief, did not have a malice thought. I also do not think he deserves 10+ years to life in prison. I do not think he is a menace to society. This is about justice, not revenge. People seem to mistake that, greatly, in our justice system.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: LeesaLove

Oi. *facepalm*

I do not believe Zimmerman thought "I need to kill him." before shooting his weapon. I think he panicked and just wanted Martin to back off. That is why I think it should be involuntary manslaughter. Zimmerman, in my belief, did not have a malice thought. I also do not think he deserves 10+ years to life in prison. I do not think he is a menace to society. This is about justice, not revenge. People seem to mistake that, greatly, in our justice system.

If he wasn't willing to kill somebody, why was he carrying a firearm in the first place? That's what you use them for.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

So far all the prosecution witnesses have undermined their case and the cracker comment has shown that it was Martin who has engaged in racial profiling.

And how do you expect a young black man from the South to react when a white guy with a shaved head starts following him? How many times has that ended up with headlines like "Skinhead kills youth"

quote:

So? The only detail that matters according to Florida law is did Zimmerman initiate the aggression. If so he has a much higher burden. If not he could have shot Martin as soon as he was in range as long as no one else saw it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Will anyone believe that as reasonable people? He was following him right up until he killed the guy.

Untrue. He spent several minutes on phone with dispatch not even knowing where Trayvon was before getting attacked 10 seconds jog away from his truck.

Based on the map here http://bcclist.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-path.jpg
It looks to be about 400' by foot from the truck to where the altercation occurred.
If you can jog that in 10 seconds, the USOC wants you to sign up because there's gold in your future.

That map is wrong. The truck was parked by the sidewalk leading to the T.

suuure it is.
Got a better one?

quote:

3) Zimmerman is on record as having called police about African Americans walking in the community in the past. Which seems to be the only calls Zimmerman that have been presented, I would like to know if he called about any other people besides African Americans.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

So far all the prosecution witnesses have undermined their case and the cracker comment has shown that it was Martin who has engaged in racial profiling.

And how do you expect a young black man from the South to react when a white guy with a shaved head starts following him? How many times has that ended up with headlines like "Skinhead kills youth"

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: LeesaLove

Oi. *facepalm*

I do not believe Zimmerman thought "I need to kill him." before shooting his weapon. I think he panicked and just wanted Martin to back off. That is why I think it should be involuntary manslaughter. Zimmerman, in my belief, did not have a malice thought. I also do not think he deserves 10+ years to life in prison. I do not think he is a menace to society. This is about justice, not revenge. People seem to mistake that, greatly, in our justice system.

The elements don't make for involuntary manslaughter.

Taking the prosecutions allegations as fact
1) Zimmerman was carrying a loaded weapon when he began pursuing Martin and continued to do so after the police operator told him not to
2) He then confronted Martin and a fight ensued
3) during the fight he pulled his firearm and shot Martin

1 and 2 make it reckless disregard
3 makes it homicide
together that makes it murder 2.

Involuntary would be something where you do something dangerous but not inherently lethal to someone and they die.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

I wouldn't go so far to say murder is legal in Florida, but that is indeed the standard. The prosecution is required to disprove self defense beyond a reasonable doubt before before the jury can really even consider if the State has proven the elements of the crime.

Any evidence of self defense is as simple as Ziimerman's unsupported assertions.

Overcoming that beyond a reasonable doubt would require something like a video tape or multiple independent witnesses disputing the claims.

Murder is legal in Florida as long as you don't do it in front of a camera or a bunch of people who don't like you.

Hopefully Zimmerman gets convicted and then overturned at the appellate level so this can reach the federal courts. This standard is both ridiculous and unconstitutional.

George's assertions are quite supporters. Witnesses heard the encounter start where he said it started. A witness saw Trayvon on top of George, where George said, seconds before the shot, with what looked like raining down blows on him.

George had a busted nose, scalp lacerations, and bruising and lumps on all sides of his head. The crime scene tech and physician assistant both pointed out these lumps to the jury.

Forensics show Trayvon on top of George at the moment the shot was fired.

So? The only detail that matters according to Florida law is did Zimmerman initiate the aggression. If so he has a much higher burden. If not he could have shot Martin as soon as he was in range as long as no one else saw it.

Note that in not insane states those trivial injuries from a fist fight would not be enough to justify a claim of reasonable fear of imminent death or grievous bodily harm which is the standard for lethal self defense.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

So far all the prosecution witnesses have undermined their case and the cracker comment has shown that it was Martin who has engaged in racial profiling.

And how do you expect a young black man from the South to react when a white guy with a shaved head starts following him? How many times has that ended up with headlines like "Skinhead kills youth"

So racial profiling is fine if you are black.