Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE Page: <<   < prev  39 40 [41] 42 43   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 2:51:57 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

it should be extensive including tactical training.


Can you offer any sort of specifics?
It's interesting, really, that I always touched on this even though it was hardly mentioned in the NRA textbook from which I was supposed to teach.
I would never tell someone that they have to commit suicide- that is, that they cannot shoot in a crowded situation even though they are taking fire. But I did talk about the practical and moral considerations of such, and offered a possible tactical solution. I also brought it back to advice I had offered regarding proper ammo and weapons choices (Zimmerman, by the way, was carrying a round considered very safe for urban carry).

I'm not a fan of the pop up ranges but don't know of anything better.

I'd go further and say the 9mm short and most of weapons made to fire it should only be carried by people who want to get killed. They may not be as bad as the old .20 caliber Saturday night specials but they're pretty awful.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 801
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 2:54:58 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Well to be blunt most cops are not experts on firearms use or safety. most practice with their weapons only enough to stay qualified.

The real experts think very highly of secure holsters.
http://www.tactical-life.com/tactical-weapons/life-saving-security-holsters/
http://www.gunblast.com/WBell_PoliceHolsterHist.htm
http://www.safariland.com/DutyGear/info/retention/Levels%20of%20Retention%20Details.pdf

And you are and practice constantly.
Clearly you feel that a ccw holder should be held to a higher standard than cops.

If I was going to carry concealed I'd damn well practice more than once a year.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 802
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 3:00:26 AM   
Extravagasm


Posts: 230
Joined: 9/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

What makes you think T was stronger or more experienced?

Oh . . . I don't know. Size. Street fighter vs 'taking classes'. Bragging about the people he'd beaten. Who had all the face damage. Who had none.

And Oh yes . . . T was on top, wasn't he? How'd he get there, maybe being weaker or less experienced?

_____________________________

BDSM operates on submission. Not on love, fairness, or convention.

The way to a Dom . . is to follow his karma, wallow in his grime, Swim in his heart.©

Yeah, fantasy is not reality. That's how it gives direction to the truly gifted.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 803
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 3:01:08 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

I am not surprised that people who make retention holsters, or sell them advertising space, think highly of them.
I'm sure somewhere there are stories of cops killed while trying to draw their firearm from a retention holster that was just too slow, or that malfunctioned, but what's the point?
You are going to sign on to anything that makes a gun more difficult to use, from trigger locks to gun safes to retention holsters to unloaded chambers to whatever.
And I am not.
Have you posted anything describing your idea of proper training to carry a firearm?

Go look for such stories I've never seen any.
No. Trigger locks are stupid, the ones I've seen were at best clumsy and hard to get on and off. The idea sounds good but in practice?
I've got no idea what you beef is with gun safes but there is no way I'd have a gun in a house with younger children without a safe.
As to holsters I said I would never carry a weapon on my person in public without some way to prevent it being taken from me. Is it not Zimmerman's present claim that his inability to resist Martin attempting to take his weapon the reason he had to shoot? Why wouldn't any responsible person not take steps to avoid that situation?

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 804
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 3:18:53 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Extravagasm

quote:

What makes you think T was stronger or more experienced?

Oh . . . I don't know. Size. Street fighter vs 'taking classes'. Bragging about the people he'd beaten. Who had all the face damage. Who had none.

And Oh yes . . . T was on top, wasn't he? How'd he get there, maybe being weaker or less experienced?


Lets see... At least a year of MMA training (Z) as opposed to street fighting (T).

I can brag about beating men all day long, doesnt mean I did.

Certainly, (Zimmerman) fell backwards and hit his head on the concrete once. His head wasn’t driven into the concrete repeatedly. He had not a broken nose but a bloody nose but he had no lacerations on his face. So I think he got the worst end of a fistfight but his escalation of force to meet the fists of a young man, 158 pounds, that’s on top of him, to shoot him, he eliminated all other escalations of force that he possibly could have used, whether it was a hard object that was anywhere or even striking Trayvon Martin with the gun on the side of the head.

http://www.newshounds.us/fox_news_wrongly_reports_that_witness_saw_trayvon_martin_punching_george_zimmerman_06292013#IlkLPCm5fMwZriJI.99

Guess none of those ways out ever occurred to anyone.

You had a bigger man, Z, 5 ft 7 in 185 pounds, figuring he could take a scrawny kid.... 5 ft 11 in, 158 lbs.. and realized quickly he coundnt. MMA fighting is not street fighting.

But you are assuming Trayvon is a rough and tumble street fighter. IF he were, there would have been far more damage.

And no one has yet to explain how Z's nose reduced in swelling in a few short hours. I guess that is too sore of a topic.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Extravagasm)
Profile   Post #: 805
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 4:45:34 AM   
Extravagasm


Posts: 230
Joined: 9/22/2004
Status: offline 		Thanks Tazz for reminding me that T had what's called in boxing, the reach advantage.


On a separate note, when an altercation continues beyond a knockdown, unlike a competitive bout, then it's no longer about enforcing your position. In street fights, when the upper aggressor continues pummeling, while the lower recipient is down and disadvantaged, it has becomes about mauling your adversary. Kicking them when they're down. Grievous bodily harm. Qualifying them for a handicapped parking sticker for life, if they're lucky.



< Message edited by Extravagasm -- 7/1/2013 5:03:15 AM >

_____________________________

BDSM operates on submission. Not on love, fairness, or convention.

The way to a Dom . . is to follow his karma, wallow in his grime, Swim in his heart.©

Yeah, fantasy is not reality. That's how it gives direction to the truly gifted.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 806
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 4:47:49 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

That thought would be in line with if they are on top of you backing your head on what ever surface is under you, it is your obligation to assume they won't hurt you bad until your brains fall out on the ground, then you can use deadly force.


I think that perfectly describes the position of many in the lynch mob camp.


I'm offended that you would compare DUE PROCESS to a lynching. That shows a clear bias, or ignorance of the true social context of the act of abducting young black men for the purpose of torture and murder.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 807
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 4:58:35 AM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I'd go further and say the 9mm short and most of weapons made to fire it should only be carried by people who want to get killed


What caliber/ammo do you prefer.
I always yammered on and on about my dislike of, say, .357 Mag, .44 Mag, .22 Mag, and any other cartridges such that the bullet would almost without fail exit the body of the target with enough remaining energy to kill someone else. Likewise ammo- FMJ, in many calibers, overpenetrates; hollow points and specialty (pre-fragmented) ammo impart more energy to the target, do more tissue damage to the target, and are less likely to pass through the target and kill an innocent bystander.
My solution for bystanders in the background was to get low, and shoot at an upward angle. (Not perfect, definitely not NRA, but the best and most practical way if you absolutely must return fire).
What I vehemently disagree with- and have argued with other NRA instructors over- is any sort of skills test that involves anything beyond safety. No speed drills, no accuracy requirements, no proficiency tests ever. Period.
The problem is not an 80 year old man who can hit little more than the ground at 25 feet- and slowly, at that. He is a very unlikely participant in any sort of improper use of a weapon despite his lack of speed and accuracy. The problem is a young man who is highly skilled with a firearm but lacks the judgement to use it only in extremis- especially if he is under the influence of some combination of booze, other drugs, and heartache.
My fellow instructors, all of whom were relatively young, all but one of whom were male, and all of whom were highly skilled, were sometimes reluctant to admit the wisdom of my advice

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 808
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 4:59:37 AM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I'd damn well practice more than once a year.


In my experience, few cops do.

< Message edited by truckinslave -- 7/1/2013 5:08:21 AM >

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 809
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 5:04:30 AM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I've got no idea what you beef is with gun safes but there is no way I'd have a gun in a house with younger children without a safe.
As to holsters I said I would never carry a weapon on my person in public without some way to prevent it being taken from me. Is it not Zimmerman's present claim that his inability to resist Martin attempting to take his weapon the reason he had to shoot? Why wouldn't any responsible person not take steps to avoid that situation?


Depends on the gun, depends on the (age of) the child, depends on your own expertise with weapons. For but one example, to a young child with insufficient stregnth to pull back the slide, a semi-auto with a loaded magazine but an empty chamber is nothing more than an awkward hammer.

Why would any responsible person make his own firearm slower to acquire and use? (Which is, of course, the exact same argument you made against trigger locks, which I generally detest).

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 810
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 5:05:12 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn


There are witness statements of GZ waiting by his truck for four minutes? and witness testimony of Martin confronting Zimmerman at his truck at end of those four minutes? Are there witnesses that saw Martin drag Zimmerman all that distance from Zimmerman's truck to the place where the shooting occurred? Witness testimony that said Martin chased Zimmerman from his truck, who saw this chase through all those turns, to the place where the shooting occurred?

Best insurance against insult is to quit being silly when discussing a serious subject.




No one in the case has said George was attacked at the truck.

The encounter started at the T intersection sidewalk, right where George said it did, as several witnesses testified to already.

You really should read some of the evidence, instead of acting silly.

(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 811
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 5:11:03 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun
Actually a medical expert just testified under oath on Friday that the lacerations and many bumps on his head was consistent with it being smacked on concrete and that what George did to stop the attack could have saved his life.


Staying in his truck and letting professionals do their job could have saved his life too.

No medical expert testimony needed to figure that one out, for a sane person.






That is as absurd as telling a pedestrian hit on the sidewalk by a drunk driver 'if you had stayed at home, you wouldn't have gotten hit.'

(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 812
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 5:12:01 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Extravagasm

Thanks Tazz for reminding me that T had what's called in boxing, the reach advantage.


On a separate note, when an altercation continues beyond a knockdown, unlike a competitive bout, then it's no longer about enforcing your position. In street fights, when the upper aggressor continues pummeling, while the lower recipient is down and disadvantaged, it has becomes about mauling your adversary. Kicking them when they're down. Grievous bodily harm. Qualifying them for a handicapped parking sticker for life, if they're lucky.




Z had a scratch to his nose and a bloody nose. A smart street fighter would have kicked if he had knocked his opponent to the ground, dont ya think? Thats always been my experience when watching my brothers fight dirty. The photo showing the swelling was photoshopped.

3 witnesses had Z on top... just sayin

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Extravagasm)
Profile   Post #: 813
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 5:14:42 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		In order to get a conviction, all they have to do is prove that Zimmerman provoked the fight, and that he had an opportunity to run away and didn't take it. John Good testified that he saw Zimmerman and Martin vertical before they ended up on the ground with Trayvon on top. Selma Mora testified she saw Zimmerman on top earlier.

So, if Good and Mora are credible witnesses, then that proves Zimmerman had an opportunity to run away when he was on top or when they were both standing, and didn't take it. Because of that, and because he provoked the confrontation, he can't claim self defense.

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 7/1/2013 5:15:16 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 814
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 5:18:11 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Extravagasm

quote:

What makes you think T was stronger or more experienced?

Oh . . . I don't know. Size. Street fighter vs 'taking classes'. Bragging about the people he'd beaten. Who had all the face damage. Who had none.

And Oh yes . . . T was on top, wasn't he? How'd he get there, maybe being weaker or less experienced?


And. Not just his face, he had multiple bumps on all sides of his head.

That is one thing (of several) that O'Mara has done well so far...he's shown the face picture with the busted nose to the jury each chance he's gotten, and had a crime scene tech (who took the photos) and a medical person point out each lump and and mark on George's head...the latter testified that they were consistent with having his head smacked against pavement multiple times.

And yeah, George's trainer says George was 'soft' and not ready to start training in the ring.

< Message edited by Raiikun -- 7/1/2013 5:19:02 AM >

(in reply to Extravagasm)
Profile   Post #: 815
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 5:19:30 AM   
Wendel27


Posts: 162
Joined: 5/5/2013
Status: offline 		 In my experience of fighting no matter what training you have very swiftly it will devolve into a flailing brawl with no technique whatsoever with the outcome predetermined by who is the most aggresive ]up up for it] and who is physically stronger.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 816
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 5:22:07 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

In order to get a conviction, all they have to do is prove that Zimmerman provoked the fight, and that he had an opportunity to run away and didn't take it. John Good testified that he saw Zimmerman and Martin vertical before they ended up on the ground with Trayvon on top. Selma Mora testified she saw Zimmerman on top earlier.

So, if Good and Mora are credible witnesses, then that proves Zimmerman had an opportunity to run away when he was on top or when they were both standing, and didn't take it. Because of that, and because he provoked the confrontation, he can't claim self defense.


O'Mara while on cross established John Good misused 'vertical'. What he meant was they were both on the ground, with Trayvon perpendicular to George, on top.

Selma didn't see George on top until after the shot. O'Mara had her demonstrate the run outside when she heard the shot.

< Message edited by Raiikun -- 7/1/2013 5:23:03 AM >

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 817
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 5:28:11 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		There's another general definition of the word provocation with regards to mitigating circumstances in sentencing if a crime was 'provoked'

Provocation may be alleged as a defense to certain crimes in order to lessen the severity of the penalty normally imposed. For example, provocation that would cause a reasonable person to act in a heat of passion —a state of mind where one acts without reflection—may result in a reduction of a charge of murder to a charge of voluntary Manslaughter.

Note the wording. The question isn't whether or not a reasonable person would expect someone else to do something, but rather whether or not a reasonable person would themselves enter into a passionate and presumably irrational state.

So, if that's the definition used, the all female jury won't be asked to put themselves in Zimmerman's shoes to see if what he did was reasonable, but instead asked to put themselves in Trayvon Martin's shoes and asked if being followed around by a strange man in first in a car and then on foot in the pitch black dark of the night between houses with no streetlights would have angered, or frightened them enough to "act without reflection"

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 7/1/2013 5:29:00 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 818
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 5:34:13 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline 		That is not the definition used in Florida, and the jury instructions say nothing about putting themselves in the decadent's shoes.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 819
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 6:08:57 AM   
Extravagasm


Posts: 230
Joined: 9/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

tazzygirl post 839: The photo showing the swelling was photoshopped.


About this photoshopping you've mentioned before. One pic you showed days ago seemed possible. I'm curious any accusations in court yet about evidence tampering? Even relating to not-entered evidence, for the sake of tainting credibility or discovery of one side? Only place I've seen this, is in you're set of side by side demo.

Though the prosecution medical testimony included front and back of head and acknowledged the severity could be explained by hitting concrete.

_____________________________

BDSM operates on submission. Not on love, fairness, or convention.

The way to a Dom . . is to follow his karma, wallow in his grime, Swim in his heart.©

Yeah, fantasy is not reality. That's how it gives direction to the truly gifted.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 820
Page:   <<   < prev  39 40 [41] 42 43   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE Page: <<   < prev  39 40 [41] 42 43   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.109