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RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 12:28:45 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		Bullshit, the duty to retreat and the castle doctrine are common law derived from English common law from at least the 1760's.

Castle doctrine refutes the duty to retreat in your home. Thus the two concepts are in conflict.
Castle doctrine also presumes that the victim can ascertain danger before being shot at or pummeled. Stand your ground merely assumes that you do not lose this ability when you leave your property. I find it interesting how much time is spent here blaming SYG when both the prosecution and the defense agree that it is not relevant.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 901
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 12:34:02 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Bullshit, the duty to retreat and the castle doctrine are common law derived from English common law from at least the 1760's.

Castle doctrine refutes the duty to retreat in your home. Thus the two concepts are in conflict.
Castle doctrine also presumes that the victim can ascertain danger before being shot at or pummeled. Stand your ground merely assumes that you do not lose this ability when you leave your property. I find it interesting how much time is spent here blaming SYG when both the prosecution and the defense agree that it is not relevant.

The principle is that in your home there is no where to retreat. Outside your home you are supposed to try and avoid killing someone else except under the direst of circumstances. It both makes sense and worked for centuries.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 902
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 12:57:52 PM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

I'd go further and say the 9mm short and most of weapons made to fire it should only be carried by people who want to get killed


What caliber/ammo do you prefer.
I always yammered on and on about my dislike of, say, .357 Mag, .44 Mag, .22 Mag, and any other cartridges such that the bullet would almost without fail exit the body of the target with enough remaining energy to kill someone else. Likewise ammo- FMJ, in many calibers, overpenetrates; hollow points and specialty (pre-fragmented) ammo impart more energy to the target, do more tissue damage to the target, and are less likely to pass through the target and kill an innocent bystander.

I don't think very highly of handguns. If I had to carry I'd carry a 1911 in .45ACP. Yes, it would over penetrate but it is reliable and it will kill anyone I have to shoot.

For home defense I prefer a .12 gauge.



No, the 45 ACP would not over penetrate even with FMJ ammo. Also I'm wondering what a .20 caliber Saturday night special is that you mentioned on a previous post is ????

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 903
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 1:00:38 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Bullshit, the duty to retreat and the castle doctrine are common law derived from English common law from at least the 1760's.

Castle doctrine refutes the duty to retreat in your home. Thus the two concepts are in conflict.
Castle doctrine also presumes that the victim can ascertain danger before being shot at or pummeled. Stand your ground merely assumes that you do not lose this ability when you leave your property. I find it interesting how much time is spent here blaming SYG when both the prosecution and the defense agree that it is not relevant.

The principle is that in your home there is no where to retreat. Outside your home you are supposed to try and avoid killing someone else except under the direst of circumstances. It both makes sense and worked for centuries.

You know why SYG is not relevant is that you can't retreat from a sucker punch or with someone sitting on you.
Retreat does no good when the other guy is set on violence a sucker punch is a reasonable indication that he isn't concerned with your well being jumping on you and beating you would tend to deepen that belief.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 904
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 1:03:49 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/USA-Update/2013/0628/Who-was-on-top-in-Zimmerman-Martin-tussle-Witness-testimony-in-conflict

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to BitYakin)
Profile   Post #: 905
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 1:09:41 PM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

TRAYVON MARTIN HAS NEVER BEEN ACCUSED OF ANY CRIME.


Yes he has.
George Zimmerman accused him of assaulting him.
Martin was not charged because it is not customary to charge the deceased.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 906
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 1:14:35 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I wonder if the prosecution is just making a token effort… Why would they call an FBI voice analysis expert to the stand knowing they were going to say there was no possible way to identify the voices on any of the recorded data. They could not tell if it was Zimmerman or Martin and they could not even tell young or old. How did this do anything but help the defense?

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 907
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 1:15:11 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

TRAYVON MARTIN HAS NEVER BEEN ACCUSED OF ANY CRIME.


Yes he has.
George Zimmerman accused him of assaulting him.
Martin was not charged because it is not customary to charge the deceased.



Of course, we cant get Trayvon Martin's side of the story since, conveniently he was shot and killed....

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 908
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 1:15:36 PM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

What are you going to do when you suspect someone is in your house? Carry it in a holster?


No. Any logical person can see that.

1. If there is no unauthorized person there, clearly brandishing has not occurred because... there's no one there.
2. If there is an unauthorized person there, you are justified in drawing the firearm.

I suppose that in situation #1 your wife or child could press charges in some state or other; but generally it seems clear that inside your home is a special case even in those states that do not address that case specifically.
But drawing a gun elsewhere, absent a reasonable threat, is a really bad idea.

< Message edited by truckinslave -- 7/1/2013 1:38:21 PM >

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 909
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 1:19:46 PM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I wonder if the prosecution is just making a token effort… Why would they call an FBI voice analysis expert to the stand knowing they were going to say there was no possible way to identify the voices on any of the recorded data. They could not tell if it was Zimmerman or Martin and they could not even tell young or old. How did this do anything but help the defense?

Butch


Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

Think back and remember all the pressure being brought to bear on Sanford PD and the DA's office. One police chief gone and one prosecutor (at least replaced but I think he was dismissed) gone. All the wild, unfounded accusations of collusion.

Prosecuting the case is C.Y.O.A. on two fronts.

God bless the race baiters!



Peace and comfort,



Michael

_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 910
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 1:22:30 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I wonder if the prosecution is just making a token effort… Why would they call an FBI voice analysis expert to the stand knowing they were going to say there was no possible way to identify the voices on any of the recorded data. They could not tell if it was Zimmerman or Martin and they could not even tell young or old. How did this do anything but help the defense?

Butch


Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

Think back and remember all the pressure being brought to bear on Sanford PD and the DA's office. One police chief gone and one prosecutor (at least replaced but I think he was dismissed) gone. All the wild, unfounded accusations of collusion.

Prosecuting the case is C.Y.O.A. on two fronts.

God bless the race baiters!



Peace and comfort,



Michael



And people think I am crazy for thinking the verdict is predetermined and Zimmerman is going to walk which will lead to race riots all over the country?

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 911
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 1:23:00 PM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline 		I provided the Fl definition of stalking and ag stalking in a previous post.
Some people are determined to ignore that definition.
It was not charged.
It is not an element of murder.
It is not a reduced charge to murder.
It is in no way alleged by the state.
It is a straw man, already destroyed.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to Wendel27)
Profile   Post #: 912
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 1:25:51 PM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline 		No no no no no no
It's proof he was a reckless cowboy

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 913
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 1:26:24 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

.
But drawing a gun elsewhere, absent a reasonable threat, is a really bad idea.

I'd call in the dark, on neutral ground or your property suspecting one or more criminals in the immediate vicinity is a reasonable threat.



_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 914
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 1:33:34 PM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline 		Actually, a .45 is my choice but it doesn't overpenetrate.

In fact, while I use hollowpoints or MagSafe in my first magazine, my spares are always FMJ. Two reasons.
1. Going to a second or subsequent magazine may mean the firearm has already malfunctioned (i.e. jammed), and FMJ is always more reliable.
2. Going to a second or subsequent magazine may mean an ongoing firefight, which may well mean a barricaded suspect and a need for as much penetration as possible from that slow, fat .45 caliber round.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 915
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 1:33:40 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

And people think I am crazy for thinking the verdict is predetermined and Zimmerman is going to walk which will lead to race riots all over the country?


I believe the police were correct when they said there was no crime to begin with... Then the pressure started coming from both citizens that knew nothing of the case except it was white on black and politicians. To keep their jobs they charged and are prosecuting Zimmerman knowing there is no way they can convict him... There just is not a case and so far the evidence presented backs that up.

PS.. You are right about riots when and if he is found not guilty... Not only did the legislature of Florida screw up with this law that is not well thought out...but they may also have caused the riots that will surely follow after he is found not guilty... by forcing the prosecution.

Butch



_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 916
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 1:34:08 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I wonder if the prosecution is just making a token effort… Why would they call an FBI voice analysis expert to the stand knowing they were going to say there was no possible way to identify the voices on any of the recorded data. They could not tell if it was Zimmerman or Martin and they could not even tell young or old. How did this do anything but help the defense?

Butch


Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

Think back and remember all the pressure being brought to bear on Sanford PD and the DA's office. One police chief gone and one prosecutor (at least replaced but I think he was dismissed) gone. All the wild, unfounded accusations of collusion.

Prosecuting the case is C.Y.O.A. on two fronts.

God bless the race baiters!



Peace and comfort,



Michael

Has it occurred to anyone that the state is demonstrating why they didn't file charges in the first place, no case?

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 917
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 1:34:35 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline 		Maybe the trouble with the Zimmerman case is the lack of a proper criminal designation. Zimmerman to me (from the outside) did not commit a depraved act as much as either a criminally reckless / negligent one. He also had impaired judgment about having a firearm. Firearms make confrontations worse and deadly. Disputes and confrontations are best without any firearms involved.

Firearms are not really a tool of safety and self protection -- they are weapons most likely to cause irreversible, unintended consequences. (Killing a spouse, child or member of the family, killing an innocent person, of being used to commit suicide.)

P.S. I do see how you can make the case he had a depraved heart, I'm just not so sure a jury will buy it (if it sympathizes with him at all.)

This two way tragedy was mostly caused by Zimmerman carrying a firearm when he didn't need one.

P.S. II I intend to let the jury sort out the facts. To me the facts are in dispute.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 7/1/2013 1:35:51 PM >

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 918
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 1:37:42 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

And people think I am crazy for thinking the verdict is predetermined and Zimmerman is going to walk which will lead to race riots all over the country?


I believe the police were correct when they said there was no crime to begin with... Then the pressure started coming from both citizens that knew nothing of the case except it was white on black and politicians. To keep their jobs they charged and are prosecuting Zimmerman knowing there is no way they can convict him... There just is not a case and so far the evidence presented backs that up.

PS.. You are right about riots when and if he is found not guilty... Not only did the legislature of Florida screw up with this law that is not well thought out...but they may also have caused the riots that will surely follow after he is found not guilty... by forcing the prosecution.

Butch



I mostly agree except for one thing. SYG is not in play. Attempts to pretend it is indicates a desire to repeal it on false grounds. This is not to question your motives but rather the motives of your sources.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 919
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 1:39:23 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

I believe the police were correct when they said there was no crime to begin with... Then the pressure started coming from both citizens that knew nothing of the case except it was white on black and politicians. To keep their jobs they charged and are prosecuting Zimmerman knowing there is no way they can convict him... There just is not a case and so far the evidence presented backs that up.


17 year old child is walking home in his own neighborhood. A third party aggressor follows him, an altercation ensues, and the aggressor shoots the unarmed child dead.

What role did race have?

If the child had been white, criminal charges would have been filed immediately.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 920
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