If abortion is murder . . . (Full Version)

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dcnovice -> If abortion is murder . . . (6/28/2013 7:09:28 PM)

Another thread brought to mind a question CNN's Bernard Shaw posed to George H.W. Bush in a 1988 presidential debate:

If abortion is murder and we execute murderers, should we execute women who abort?

Not surprisingly, Bush dodged the question, and I've waited ever since for a straight answer from anyone.

So what do you all think? Shall we fry murdering Moms? If not, why not? And, just to spice things up, how 'bout the doctors?




jlf1961 -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/28/2013 7:18:58 PM)

First I have no clue, nor would I even venture an opinion.

Now i have made a suggestion of what we could do with the unwanted kids from the unwanted pregnancies but I do think that people will not agree with that solution either.




dcnovice -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/28/2013 7:21:09 PM)

quote:

I have made a suggestion of what we could do with the unwanted kids from the unwanted pregnancies

Let's save that for another thread please.




erieangel -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/28/2013 8:16:06 PM)

I ran across a question of pro-lifers the other day: What if your mother had aborted you?

My answer would be that if my mother had aborted she would not have almost died giving birth to me. She would not have been so weak and ill after the birth that she could hold me for 3 months. Some of my psychological problems growing up were caused by the lack of mother-baby bonding when I was a new born. Because my mother could not lift me, she had to bottle-feed me. And she had to do leaning over the side of the crib, shoving the bottle into my mouth then flipping me onto my stomach to burp me. She pretty much changed my diaper the same way--cloth diapers (in 1962 there were not yet disposals) were removed quickly, bottom wiped and cleaned, new diaper put into place and flipped up then rubber pants put on to hold into place. She didn't even pins because she couldn't use both hands at the time to fasten them. The only time my diaper was really secured with pins was when my mother had help from one of her parents who both worked, or my father was home from work.

Given what we both endured by my birth, early abortion probably would have been an option for my mother.




Rule -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/28/2013 8:53:20 PM)

I always, as a baby, feared those safety pins.




SadistDave -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/29/2013 12:10:34 AM)

In states where murder carries the death penalty: Yes.

In states that do not carry the death penaly: No.

Bear in mind, that answer is based soley on the question. If abortion were to be considered to be murder under the law then it would be legally defined as murder, yes? Yes. Saying that it is defined as murder but not treating it as such once that legal definition were to be applied would make no sense at all.

As all supporters of legal infantacide here are so fond of pointing out though, whether anyone likes it or not, abortion does not fall under the catagory of murder anywhere in the country, so the question itself is actually pretty irrelevant.

-SD-




MrBukani -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/29/2013 12:47:54 AM)

The question is abject and leads to nothing more then supporting christian zealots.

There is no circumstance described what so ever. So it's impossible to say yes.

Is it murder when the mothers life is in threat?
Is it murder when the child is of a mentally ill rapist?
And so on.
Why would you pose a question like that and what is your agenda?

It's with these questions the person who asks already seems to have made up their mind and tries to trick an opponent to go against it's own moral.
A well tested form of passive manipulation.




dcnovice -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/29/2013 6:51:18 AM)

quote:

Why would you pose a question like that and what is your agenda?

I posed it because a poster in anther thread described abortion as murder. That brought Shaw's question to mind, reminding me that those lobbying to recriminalize abortion are oddly quiet about how it should be punished.




MAINEiacMISTRESS -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/29/2013 7:10:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Another thread brought to mind a question CNN's Bernard Shaw posed to George H.W. Bush in a 1988 presidential debate:

If abortion is murder and we execute murderers, should we execute women who abort?

Not surprisingly, Bush dodged the question, and I've waited ever since for a straight answer from anyone.

So what do you all think? Shall we fry murdering Moms? If not, why not? And, just to spice things up, how 'bout the doctors?


And ultimately the penis-wielding fuckers who CAUSED the pregnancy in the first place. Without them there wouldn't BE pregnancies to begin with. After all, they could have opted to use condoms or undergo vasectomies to PREVENT the situation instead of carelessly spewing their sperm willy-nilly. But no, no one EVER points so much as a finger in their direction when they argue about the abortion situation. They walk away guilt free as soon as they shoot their wad. It should be Death by amputation for THEM.




theshytype -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/29/2013 10:07:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

So what do you all think? Shall we fry murdering Moms? If not, why not? And, just to spice things up, how 'bout the doctors?



Sure...if we execute those that take loved ones off life support. To me, there's little difference.




kalikshama -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/29/2013 10:22:35 AM)

We should send them all to Australia (for up to 14 years):

Punishing Illegal Abortion

In Britain, in 1803, Lord Ellenborough's Act (43 Geo. 3, c. 58) made abortion a statutory offense for the first time. Prior to this abortion was a criminal offense both by Common Law and ecclesiastical law. This act made any attempt to induce the abortion of a quickened fetus with poisons a capital felony, and it further made any attempt (by the one performing and/or pursuing it) to induce an abortion before quickening (or without proof of quickening) subject to fine, imprisonment, pillory, whipping, or transportation to the penal colonies for up to 14 years.

In 1828, the Offences Against Persons Act made attempting to induce the abortion of a quickened fetus with instruments (in addition to poisons) a capital offense. In 1837, the Offences Against Persons Act, eliminated capital punishment, removed the quickened vs. non-quickened distinction and made all abortion, at any stage of pregnancy, subject to the same penalty – transportation to the colonies from 15 years to life, or three years in prison.




kalikshama -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/29/2013 10:27:03 AM)

What anti-abortion demonstrators said when asked what the punishment should be for women who got abortions if abortion became illegal.




ThatDaveGuy69 -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/29/2013 10:37:32 AM)

Brilliant!




dcnovice -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/29/2013 10:44:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

What anti-abortion demonstrators said when asked what the punishment should be for women who got abortions if abortion became illegal.

Wow. It's amazing how many folks say they've never thought about it. That's basically what Vice President Bush said in 1988.




PeonForHer -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/29/2013 10:50:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

What anti-abortion demonstrators said when asked what the punishment should be for women who got abortions if abortion became illegal.


I enjoyed that. 'I have no knee-jerk answer, so I have nothing to say'. Brilliant!




Aswad -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/29/2013 10:56:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

If abortion is murder and we execute murderers, should we execute women who abort?


If and only if we entertain the premise that abortion is murder, then we should necessarily execute doctors for performing it, along with the women that order it, and anyone involved in paying for it, while charging people with being accessories as is appropriate, save for the circumstance where self defense is invoked (an exception sometimes forgotten by prolifers).

The premise itself, however, is one I don't agree with.

In my view, no man or woman has any bodily obligation or obligation of labor that hasn't been voluntarily undertaken, and the State should have no part in enforcing an obligation, save as recorded in contract or proclaimed before several disinterested witnesses. This includes the supposed obligation to sustain a parasite that may one day become a decent person. As such, it may be removed on any grounds by anyone willing to perform that service, but the providers of that service can impose what conditions they will, as with any service provided, and there is no inherent claim to the tissue, meaning that viable fetuses can certainly be kept alive and raised, assuming someone is willing to do so (or someone is willing to pay for that service).

I tend to think that a State should seek to provide certain services (though I prefer for this to be done in a tiered model, on an opt-in basis, if possible), and that one of these services should be termination of pregnancies that are dangerous, along with those that are likely to constitute an unreasonable burden on the woman or on society (e.g. rape babies, babies with serious genetic defects, etc.), to those women that wish it. Obviously, a State can buy such services, and the hospitals in question may provide the service under other conditions as well, but I do not think there are other circumstances where a State should pay for it.

Necessarily, a well run State also provides ready access to contraceptives (in particular condoms, which confer additional benefits in public health) and educates in their use as part of its sex education curriculum for its public schools, as well as covering other aspects of family planning in its life skills curriculum under the heading of health and finance. These are means of reducing the incidence of abortions (for those who care about that), but more importantly, are means to ensure an overall healthier and more prosperous society for everyone, as demonstrated by comparing countries that have such programs with those that do not, as well as by comparing before and after introducing such programs in countries that have. Well run States barely mention abstinence in sex education, save to assure students that it's perfectly acceptable to be abstinent if they want to be.

Without a liberal (in the international sense of the word, not the American sense of the word) premise, western moralities cannot bear with integrity the legality of abortion without necessity, though it is still an open question whether or not one should consider such to be murder if the liberal premise is absent. If present, the liberal premise provides for abortion, and indeed provides for it in greater measure than is the case in current laws in most western countries, though the funding restrictions would be apt to cause a similar pattern to what is seen today.

The figures for the USA are comparable to those for other countries in the Western hemisphere.

The teen pregnancy figures are appallingly high, though.

IWYW,
— Aswad.





theshytype -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/29/2013 10:57:53 AM)

That's fantastic. Did they think making something illegal would prevent anyone from getting an abortion one way or another?




kalikshama -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/29/2013 11:00:46 AM)

quote:

Shall we fry murdering Moms? If not, why not? And, just to spice things up, how 'bout the doctors?


Since God punishes women who have abortions and the doctors who perform them, punishment does not need to be codified here on Earth. Duh.




Aswad -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/29/2013 11:01:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MAINEiacMISTRESS

And ultimately the penis-wielding fuckers who CAUSED the pregnancy in the first place.


Let me see if I've got this right: your reproductive health is men's business?

Me, I use condoms, but if I were a woman, I'd be taking responsibility for my own nethers, not leaving it to a man I let visit them.

IWYW,
— Aswad.




Hillwilliam -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/29/2013 11:06:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: theshytype

That's fantastic. Did they think making something illegal would prevent anyone from getting an abortion one way or another?

It worked for drugs didn't it?[8D]




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