RE: If abortion is murder . . .

RE: If abortion is murder . . . (Full Version)

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egern -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/30/2013 2:00:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice Another thread brought to mind a question CNN's Bernard Shaw posed to George H.W. Bush in a 1988 presidential debate: If abortion is murder and we execute murderers, should we execute women who abort? I do not think it is murder, nor do I believe in the death penalty.

egern -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/30/2013 2:02:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad quote: ORIGINAL: MAINEiacMISTRESS And ultimately the penis-wielding fuckers who CAUSED the pregnancy in the first place. Let me see if I've got this right: your reproductive health is men's business? Me, I use condoms, but if I were a woman, I'd be taking responsibility for my own nethers, not leaving it to a man I let visit them. IWYW, — Aswad. I agree that men are a part of the whole problem, just as it is also the man's baby when there is a baby.

Aswad -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/30/2013 4:36:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: egern I agree that men are a part of the whole problem, just as it is also the man's baby when there is a baby. I wasn't talking about problems, I was talking about responsibilities. The problems arise when the responsibilities are dodged by those they concern. Being responsible for something requires a say in it. A woman is manifestly stuck with the consequences by virtue of her anatomy, just like someone going over a cliff is manifestly stuck with gravity. It doesn't matter if you're out for a stroll or out to jump: you go over the cliff, you splat. Now, we could splat the person walking next to you, but unless they pushed, that seems like a poor understanding of responsibility to me. Laws can pin consequences on a man, too, but then it's also a natural extension that the man should have some say in the matter he is responsible for (e.g. deciding whether or not to have an abortion, as your "also the man's baby" above suggests). To avoid an absurd state of affairs, I suggest the parties be legally responsible for their own shit, and only their own shit. Since some women don't govern what goes between their legs, and some argue that should read "all" instead, we have a number of laws to pick up the slack by foisting that responsibility onto men instead, as if men are somehow better at the task of governing a woman's uterus than she is herself. This neatly ignores the evidence that it ain't gonna happen, and it neatly fails to take that line of reasoning to its logical conclusions. I think it's disrespectful to women, but hey, maybe my standards are too high. I use condoms both for my own benefit and to take a responsibility I don't inherently have. IWYW, — Aswad.

PeonForHer -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/30/2013 4:56:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad To avoid an absurd state of affairs, I suggest the parties be legally responsible for their own shit, and only their own shit. I'm having trouble following your reasoning here, Aswad. Surely a man's sperm is his own shit, so it's his responsibility where he puts it?

tazzygirl -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/30/2013 5:08:12 PM)
quote: I use condoms both for my own benefit and to take a responsibility I don't inherently have. IWYW, — Aswad. The fail rate for condoms is higher than the pill. User fail rate is 18. Birth control pills have a fail rate of 9. 18 women out of 100 will get pregnant on the condoms 9 out of 100 will get pregnant using birth control.

Aswad -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/30/2013 6:38:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer I'm having trouble following your reasoning here, Aswad. Surely a man's sperm is his own shit, so it's his responsibility where he puts it? Are you honestly having trouble following my overall reasoning? If so, making explicit the unstated premise that the woman has agreed to unprotected sex might shed some light on it. IWYW, — Aswad.

tazzygirl -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/30/2013 6:40:26 PM)
Yet 18 women out of 100 wont have unprotected sex, but will have sex with protection that fails.

Aswad -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/30/2013 6:50:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl The fail rate for condoms is higher than the pill. Two percent with perfect use. I strive for perfection. [:D] Still, point made. And yours enhances mine: using one is doing my part. I take precautions against consequences I want to avoid. So should she. I've never hidden the fact that I don't intend to raise or support children, and that my consent to sex is contingent on her acceptance of that. I take precautions to reduce the risk of STD transmission and unwanted pregnancies, including use of condoms at minimum. I know the risk (legally imposed, so an added, non-preexisting one) I'm taking in having sex. She knows the risk (biologically inherent) she's taking in having sex, and the conditions of consent on my end. If she draws the "winning" numbers in the lottery, she can keep what I "gave" her if she wants to, or get rid of it if she doesn't. That, too, is clear up front. If she hasn't agreed to it, sex isn't happening. Though, that's enough about me. I was trying to make a general point, and apparently failing at it. IWYW, — Aswad.

tazzygirl -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/30/2013 6:52:41 PM)
Your point wasnt lost on me. However, I did feel a need to point out that precautions can be taken and still not be enough.

Aswad -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/30/2013 6:54:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Yet 18 women out of 100 wont have unprotected sex, but will have sex with protection that fails. Not my problem, unless she violates the terms of my consent, in which case that would be negligent rape here if the gender roles were reversed. IWYW, — Aswad.

tazzygirl -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/30/2013 6:56:00 PM)
In the US, society got tired of taking care of two people's "mistakes" or obligations. Child support became mandatory.

Aswad -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/30/2013 7:04:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Your point wasnt lost on me. However, I did feel a need to point out that precautions can be taken and still not be enough. Got it now. And it's a fair point. One which goes back to the original point: while I do think a guy should take responsibility for what he can control, the final responsibility for anything to do with a pregnancy lies with the woman whose uterus it is, so long as she has consented. The gooey puck stops there if the condom fails. I'm arguing that her actions are the necessary and sufficient part of the causal chain of her own pregnancy unless we are talking about rape, whereas none of his actions are sufficient or necessary in the causal chain leading up to her pregnancy (except saying no to sex, of course, which can avoid it being his goo, but cannot avoid her uterus getting gooey, the latter being somewhat material since it's that consequence and what follows from it that is in question). IWYW, — Aswad.

tazzygirl -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/30/2013 7:13:41 PM)
I agree. The issue of her pregnancy is at least half of her own control, and half his, providing its a consensual act. Rape has no part in this discussion as far as I am concerned. But as soon as both consent to sex, the known outcome of the act is pregnancy. If she lies and says she is sterile, or he does, then we, again, have a different situation based upon lies, which doesnt lend itself to consent. If a man tells me he is sterile, I want to see the paperwork. A man should demand the same of a woman.

Aswad -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/30/2013 7:24:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl In the US, society got tired of taking care of two people's "mistakes" or obligations. Child support became mandatory. Not an uncommon arrangement, but unless he agrees to it, his mandatory expenses should be limited to the expenses and losses associated with termination. After all, the current sentiment, with which I agree, is that the woman has final say in whether or not to keep the baby. As such, the final responsibility for that decision, and the consequences, should rest with her, unless something else has been agreed on up front. IWYW, — Aswad.

tazzygirl -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/30/2013 7:29:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl In the US, society got tired of taking care of two people's "mistakes" or obligations. Child support became mandatory. Not an uncommon arrangement, but unless he agrees to it, his mandatory expenses should be limited to the expenses and losses associated with termination. After all, the current sentiment, with which I agree, is that the woman has final say in whether or not to keep the baby. As such, the final responsibility for that decision, and the consequences, should rest with her, unless something else has been agreed on up front. IWYW, — Aswad. Abortion by demand of someone else besides the mother wont be allowed here. Forcing a woman to go through with one will have all sorts of ramifications. Including the point that, until paternity tests are done, there is no guarantee who the father is.

PeonForHer -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/30/2013 7:41:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer I'm having trouble following your reasoning here, Aswad. Surely a man's sperm is his own shit, so it's his responsibility where he puts it? Are you honestly having trouble following my overall reasoning? If so, making explicit the unstated premise that the woman has agreed to unprotected sex might shed some light on it. IWYW, — Aswad. Yes, that's why I asked. The woman has agreed to unprotected sex - and so has the man. Two freedoms, two responsibilities. Standardly, people expect responsibilities to go with freedoms. You seem to have an idea of freedom here that isn't connected to a responsibility. Is that correct?

Aswad -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/30/2013 7:52:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl The issue of her pregnancy is at least half of her own control, and half his, providing its a consensual act. The issue of sex is half/half. The issue of pregnancy is not. Her input is necessary and sufficient. More crucially, though, she has final say in whether or not to carry the baby to term, decoupling the causal chain and leaving the consequences solely contingent on her choice, eliminating any theoretical residual responsibility for the child being born beyond that point. quote: But as soon as both consent to sex, the known outcome of the act is pregnancy. Correction: the known risk of the act is that she- not him- might get pregnant. Absent outside imposition, that risk is hers alone. Law may impose a solidaric risk on him, as well, a risk of additional consequences. The question being whether it is moral to do so. (What is not in question, lest we misunderstand one another, is whether or not it is morally preferrable for him to step up to the plate and take what responsibility he can. He should.) quote: If she lies and says she is sterile, or he does, then we, again, have a different situation based upon lies, which doesnt lend itself to consent. I've never heard the argument accepted that a man has been raped if a woman has lied to him about fertility, but I don't dismiss the argument myself, nor necessarily disagree with it. quote: If a man tells me he is sterile, I want to see the paperwork. A man should demand the same of a woman. Trust is important. Child support laws obviously undermine trust, true. But by the time I'm willing to risk STDs, I'm also willing to risk that she has lied. If she has, and tries to demand child support, then the money will be a least concern for all involved. In the theoretical scenario where STDs have been eliminated, I'm not sure. If she were my only bonded partner, I suppose I'd risk trusting her, again on the least concern principle. After all, if someone I trust tries to impose forced labor on me to pay for her betrayal, well, I guess you can imagine how well that would end. IWYW, — Aswad.

jlf1961 -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/30/2013 7:53:41 PM)
Considering the way that some people drive, I am seriously thinking of writing my congressman and suggesting a bill to make any traffic violation that results in a collision be a mandatory death penalty, if, of course, negligence or careless driving is provable. In other words, some jack ass (dont know the term for a female of the ass family) cutting across 3 lanes of traffic to make an exit and in the process causing 3 drivers to swerve to avoid hitting her would get the death penalty. No, it was not an exit to a hospital... It was the last exit to the freaking mall.

tazzygirl -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/30/2013 8:04:38 PM)
quote: The issue of sex is half/half. The issue of pregnancy is not. Her input is necessary and sufficient. More crucially, though, she has final say in whether or not to carry the baby to term, decoupling the causal chain and leaving the consequences solely contingent on her choice, eliminating any theoretical residual responsibility for the child being born beyond that point. And? Think we wouldnt gladly give over that ability to you men if we could? quote: Correction: the known risk of the act is that she- not him- might get pregnant. Absent outside imposition, that risk is hers alone. Law may impose a solidaric risk on him, as well, a risk of additional consequences. The question being whether it is moral to do so. (What is not in question, lest we misunderstand one another, is whether or not it is morally preferrable for him to step up to the plate and take what responsibility he can. He should.) Yes, teh risk of the outcome is pregnancy. The risk is hers, the support is both of theirs. Something men tend to forget when they cry about the amount of child support they have to pay out. quote: I've never heard the argument accepted that a man has been raped if a woman has lied to him about fertility, but I don't dismiss the argument myself, nor necessarily disagree with it. I dont see the inherent difference actually. Consent cannot be given freely is all situations pertinent to the fact are not known. If a man tells me he is sterile, and I believe him, and enter into a "contract" to have sex without protection, its with the knowledge that he is sterile. I dont see how that could be any different for a man if a woman uses that approach to trap him. quote: Child support laws obviously undermine trust, true. I disagree. Two adults who trust will work out a scenario where legal intervention isnt necessary.

PeonForHer -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/30/2013 8:15:40 PM)
quote: The issue of sex is half/half. The issue of pregnancy is not. Her input is necessary and sufficient. More crucially, though, she has final say in whether or not to carry the baby to term, decoupling the causal chain and leaving the consequences solely contingent on her choice, eliminating any theoretical residual responsibility for the child being born beyond that point. Seems too black and white to me, Aswad. 'Decoupled' seems too strong a word. She has final say, sure, but a great deal will depend upon his, the father's, desires. He can refuse to accept the choice. Ultimately, he could withdraw his emotional support - his love for the mother. There's no law or any court that could prevent him doing that, of course.

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