RE: If abortion is murder . . .

RE: If abortion is murder . . . (Full Version)

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Aswad -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/30/2013 8:24:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer Not as far as I can tell, but it's 5am, and I've had a bit of drink with some unwelcome news, so I'll see if I can ponder it some more tomorrow and perhaps better articulate the key point I've been dancing around for lack of a good way to put it. In any case, in my book, responsibilities go with power (it's inaccurate to use freedom here, I think) by definition, so if you can convincingly show me that I've made the mistake of decoupling the two, I'll change my stance on this. IWYW, — Aswad.

dcnovice -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/30/2013 8:28:37 PM)
quote: The fail rate for condoms is higher than the pill. User fail rate is 18. Birth control pills have a fail rate of 9. 18 women out of 100 will get pregnant on the condoms 9 out of 100 will get pregnant using birth control. This brought to mind an interesting (imho) observation by a favorite writer: Yet, as every party to the abortion debate should know, those methods of contraception that are truly safe are not absolutely reliable no matter how reliably they are used. Many women, like myself, have felt free to choose the safest methods because legal abortion is available as a backup to contraception. Anyone who finds that a thoughtless, immoral choice should speak to the orphans of women whose wombs were perforated by Dalkon shields or whose strokes were brought on by high-estrogen birth-control pills. Barbara Ehrenreich, "Their Dilemma and Mine" in The Worst Years of Our Lives: Irreverent Notes From a Decade of Greed (HarperPerennial, 1991)

PeonForHer -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/30/2013 8:34:35 PM)
Sov godt. :-)

tazzygirl -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/30/2013 8:36:09 PM)
quote: Yet, as every party to the abortion debate should know, those methods of contraception that are truly safe are not absolutely reliable no matter how reliably they are used. Many women, like myself, have felt free to choose the safest methods because legal abortion is available as a backup to contraception. Anyone who finds that a thoughtless, immoral choice should speak to the orphans of women whose wombs were perforated by Dalkon shields or whose strokes were brought on by high-estrogen birth-control pills. She is right. The more protective forms do carry a higher risk, such as the IUDs and the implants.

dcnovice -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/30/2013 8:44:05 PM)
Her essay really stretched my thinking on this issue. I wish it were online so I could link to it. Another very powerful piece was Marge Piercy's poem Right to Life.

tazzygirl -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/30/2013 8:53:14 PM)
To me, this is all an attempt to restrict the sexuality of women.

dcnovice -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/30/2013 9:03:24 PM)
I'm sure that's part of it. The way we were taught in Catholic school was in terms of civil rights, defending the lives of the defenseless. I've since realized this thorny issue is more complicated than that.

dcnovice -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/30/2013 9:09:22 PM)
Thinking back to the video KK posted earlier in the thread, I was struck by how many of the protesters were women. It may be my naivete, but they voiced what seemed to be genuine compassion for women facing abortion.

tazzygirl -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/30/2013 9:18:21 PM)
If a woman doesnt want children, she can have a tubal. But, to get that tubal, she cant be 20, she has to have x amount of children already, or she has to have permission from her spouse. If she doesnt want children now, she has to roll the dice.. either with her health or with the risk of getting pregnant, which can also adversely affect her health. http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2012/07/getting_your_tubes_tied_why_do_young_women_have_a_hard_time_getting_sterilized_.html And yet for males, there doesnt seem to be this problem.

jlf1961 -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/30/2013 9:28:35 PM)
Tazzy, you dont seem to grasp a some philosophies per the anti abortion lobby, sorry pro life lobby. Let me enlighten you. 1) Women are property, and subservient to men. 2) God placed women on earth to be a companion to man. 3) God commanded Adam and Eve to go forth and multiply. 4) A woman's secondary purpose are to give birth to children, the more the better, so that the Husband has help to work the farm, mind the sheep.... 5) Daughters are to be married off in arranged marriages to cement treaties alliances and to pay off debts..... Uh, somehow I think the last two items are no longer applicable in the modern world... This means that the pro lifers want to do away with technology and return to the dark ages.

Missdressed -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/30/2013 9:30:31 PM)
Here in Northern Ireland, 4 and 5 still apply. As well as all the rest [:@]

tazzygirl -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (6/30/2013 9:57:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 Tazzy, you dont seem to grasp a some philosophies per the anti abortion lobby, sorry pro life lobby. Let me enlighten you. 1) Women are property, and subservient to men. 2) God placed women on earth to be a companion to man. 3) God commanded Adam and Eve to go forth and multiply. 4) A woman's secondary purpose are to give birth to children, the more the better, so that the Husband has help to work the farm, mind the sheep.... 5) Daughters are to be married off in arranged marriages to cement treaties alliances and to pay off debts..... Uh, somehow I think the last two items are no longer applicable in the modern world... This means that the pro lifers want to do away with technology and return to the dark ages. Oh, I understand them, I simply do not agree with them. Barefoot and pregnant should be a choice, not a moral dictate upon all those who may or may not agree with it.

egern -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (7/1/2013 4:09:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 ETA: Oh, and just an aside, if the women didn't open their legs to the nearest prick that presents itself, they wouldn't get pregnant either! [:D] So don't always blame the guy!!! LOL am I the only one who sees the flaw in this kind of logic? Goes both ways, man.

egern -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (7/1/2013 4:14:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Those laws were changed base upon two issues.... 1) "Child bed fever". At the time, no one knew what caused it, or how to stop it. Abortions were causing many deaths due to infections. 2) religious reasons. I do not know which time, but medieval times and later people died from child births from the fever as well.

egern -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (7/1/2013 4:17:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad quote: ORIGINAL: egern I agree that men are a part of the whole problem, just as it is also the man's baby when there is a baby. I wasn't talking about problems, I was talking about responsibilities. The problems arise when the responsibilities are dodged by those they concern. Since some women don't govern what goes between their legs, and some argue that should read "all" instead, we have a number of laws to pick up the slack by foisting that responsibility onto men instead, as if men are somehow better at the task of governing a woman's uterus than she is herself. This neatly ignores the evidence that it ain't gonna happen, and it neatly fails to take that line of reasoning to its logical conclusions. I think it's disrespectful to women, but hey, maybe my standards are too high. I use condoms both for my own benefit and to take a responsibility I don't inherently have. IWYW, — Aswad. My point was that it takes two to make a baby, and both are responsible for the results.

egern -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (7/1/2013 4:18:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer I'm having trouble following your reasoning here, Aswad. Surely a man's sperm is his own shit, so it's his responsibility where he puts it? Are you honestly having trouble following my overall reasoning? If so, making explicit the unstated premise that the woman has agreed to unprotected sex might shed some light on it. IWYW, — Aswad. If the women has agreed to unprotected sex, then the man has suggested it, and both are responsible.

tazzygirl -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (7/1/2013 4:19:12 AM)
Actually, it extended into the 20th century. Wasnt until 1935 that the cure was simple hygiene of the staff taking care of the patient and sterilization of equipment was proven. Another little known fact of that time... women who gave birth at home had better morality rates than those who delivered at a hospital.

egern -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (7/1/2013 4:22:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl The fail rate for condoms is higher than the pill. Two percent with perfect use. I strive for perfection. [:D] Still, point made. And yours enhances mine: using one is doing my part. I take precautions against consequences I want to avoid. So should she. I've never hidden the fact that I don't intend to raise or support children, and that my consent to sex is contingent on her acceptance of that. I take precautions to reduce the risk of STD transmission and unwanted pregnancies, including use of condoms at minimum. I know the risk (legally imposed, so an added, non-preexisting one) I'm taking in having sex. She knows the risk (biologically inherent) she's taking in having sex, and the conditions of consent on my end. If she draws the "winning" numbers in the lottery, she can keep what I "gave" her if she wants to, or get rid of it if she doesn't. That, too, is clear up front. If she hasn't agreed to it, sex isn't happening. Though, that's enough about me. I was trying to make a general point, and apparently failing at it. IWYW, — Aswad. In short, you argue that since women have the body that gets pregnant, it is ok for men to have the fun, but not take the consequences if - in spite of precautions - she gets pregnant. Doesn't sound right to me, especially not these days where in so many places you simply cannot get an abortion.

egern -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (7/1/2013 4:31:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 Tazzy, you dont seem to grasp a some philosophies per the anti abortion lobby, sorry pro life lobby. Let me enlighten you. 1) Women are property, and subservient to men. 2) God placed women on earth to be a companion to man. 3) God commanded Adam and Eve to go forth and multiply. 4) A woman's secondary purpose are to give birth to children, the more the better, so that the Husband has help to work the farm, mind the sheep.... 5) Daughters are to be married off in arranged marriages to cement treaties alliances and to pay off debts..... Uh, somehow I think the last two items are no longer applicable in the modern world... This means that the pro lifers want to do away with technology and return to the dark ages. The last two are alive in vast areas of the world.

egern -> RE: If abortion is murder . . . (7/1/2013 4:32:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Actually, it extended into the 20th century. Wasnt until 1935 that the cure was simple hygiene of the staff taking care of the patient and sterilization of equipment was proven. Another little known fact of that time... women who gave birth at home had better morality rates than those who delivered at a hospital. Yes, and yes - scary, though.

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