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[Poll]

What is your truth?

Truth is subjective/relative.

47% (23)

Truth is absolute.

52% (25)

Total Votes : 48

(last vote on : 7/11/2013 3:38:13 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )

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RE: What is your truth? - 7/8/2013 3:58:32 PM

Toysinbabeland

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

I've yet to see anyone manage to differentiate between religious faith and gullibility.

Ooooh, that'd be interesting. Who wants to take that on? Fun!

Ahem:
Of course-
One is my religion, the other is anyone else's

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Post #: 141

RE: What is your truth? - 7/8/2013 8:26:19 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

I've yet to see anyone manage to differentiate between religious faith and gullibility.

Ooooh, that'd be interesting. Who wants to take that on? Fun!

I'll take a stab at it...

Faith is placing your trust in the validity of your own experience, gullibility is placing your trust in the validity of someone else's.

K.

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Post #: 142

RE: What is your truth? - 7/8/2013 8:34:02 PM

njlauren

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

Truth is absolute.

Belief is subjective.

I may believe X is true, someone else may believe it is false.

It cannot be both. One of us is therefore wrong.

That is only true with concrete things that can be verified. For example, the Catholic Church believes it is the only true faith, yet other faiths exist and believe at the very least that what they teach is truth......the real problem here is that there is no way to define what the 'true' faith is or more importantly, that there is even any such thing (after all God/the Divine may accept many truths).

The point is that truth is not absolute when there is no basis to measure it, define it and prove it, and certain things, like beauty, or whether 12 Tone music is really music, cannot be measured for truth. I get your point, though, that if it can't be measured it is belief, but what Socrates was doing (besides being a cranky old shit, which he was, since his last statement is a variation on the truth paradox) is to show that the term truth itself has an element of belief to it.

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Post #: 143

RE: What is your truth? - 7/8/2013 8:39:32 PM

njlauren

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

I've yet to see anyone manage to differentiate between religious faith and gullibility.

Ooooh, that'd be interesting. Who wants to take that on? Fun!

I will. Gullibility is believing something that is easily shown to be foolish (like, that chocolate milk comes from brown cows) or the infamous Nigerian prince fleeing the country scams....... Religious faith is inherently believing something that cannot be proven or disproven, that there is no measure of it. Now, there are elements of belief I can say are like that, for example, fundamentalist Christians believing the earth is 6000 years old, dinosaurs lived in the garden of Eden and evolution never happened, or the RC clinging to the idea the earth was the center of the solar system and universe until 1922.........Simply believing in God or the Divine is not gullibility, whereas, for example, someone believing the wafer and wine turns into flesh and blood (not symbolically, literally) because that could be tested (and shown to be false). If logic and reason can show a matter of faith to be false, then staying with it is folly and gullibility, believing something that cannot be proven or disproven is faith.

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RE: What is your truth? - 7/8/2013 9:12:25 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren

Gullibility is believing something that is easily shown to be foolish... Religious faith is inherently believing something that cannot be proven or disproven

I like that, and reflecting on it makes me think that maybe we each only got half of it. On the one hand, for example, it might not be possible to prove or disprove the validity of someone else's experience, but there would remain an element of gullibility in placing one's trust in it. On the other hand, placing one's trust in the validity of one's own experience would have an element of gullibility if it could be proven that the experience wasn't what one thought. Applying both sets of criteria seems to cover the weaknesses in taking either alone.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 7/8/2013 9:30:32 PM >

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Post #: 145

RE: What is your truth? - 7/9/2013 2:04:58 AM

MrBukani

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Isn't there a dyke you can stick your finger into somewhere, Mr B?

Sure plenty, is there anything usefull you would like to say on your own account?
Or is it this topic absolutely not relevant nor important to you?

Like let's take god out of the equasion for a little while. Because it brings pesky trivial contesting.

I could say the truth is like god incorruptable. But then again we have god. So let's say the truth is like the sun.
It's just there, at this point we can do little about it.
That people thought the earth was flat was not true. Not then not ever. That people have claimed this to be true doesn't effect the absolute truth.
Every bit of science brings us closer to the truth, especially things that are disproven.

The reason I say this is because, if everything would be relative/subjective there is no progress.
And it is for certain there is always progress.
Besides that do you really want to raise your children like that?
And then complain the world is a fucked up place.
While we constantly corrupt the truth ourselves.
If that is so, why do people complain about politicians?
They will just say there is no such thing as equality.

You get a sort of 1984 orwellian situation with this line of thinking.
Dutch truth is factual and incorruptable.
Maybe it's time for english people to learn where they got their shit from.

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Post #: 146

RE: What is your truth? - 7/9/2013 3:20:42 AM

MrBukani

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Another example.
People teach their children Santa is real while we all know it's fiction.
Why?
To me that is the father of all lies.
Your child looks up to you like a god.
And then after a couple of years the child finds out you been lying.
Then you try teaching the child to tell the truth.
And the child thinks why would I, you have been lying to me since I was born.
I see a very vicious circle there.

Then you get the reply but but but everybody does so, why take the magic of it away. It's FUN!
Really?
So people think it's funny to fuck with a child's mind.
That's like mental pedophilia.

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Post #: 147

RE: What is your truth? - 7/9/2013 3:42:22 AM

Kirata

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It's not just Santa Claus. It's faerie tales and poetry and... I mean, just consider Gibran. Love doesn't "beckon" to you; it's not a path, "hard and steep" or otherwise; and it doesn't have "wings" or a hidden "sword." It's all lies, lies told by sick people who can't stand truth and reality.

I'm with you all the way on this. Hallelujah!

K.

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Post #: 148

RE: What is your truth? - 7/9/2013 2:17:57 PM

cordeliasub

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Did you know that if you mix up the letters of the name Santa it spells Satan?

Scary....

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Post #: 149

RE: What is your truth? - 7/9/2013 3:41:05 PM

MrBukani

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Oops sorry made a mistake with the pic. forgot pics of kids are not permitted.
Anyway again, we dutchies brought you some scary shit... santa claus, he is called saint nicolas here and has his own holiday.
He used to bring food and gifts to prisoners in Anatolia(Turkey)

Dick Maas also made the scary movie some time ago...

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RE: What is your truth? - 7/9/2013 4:43:29 PM

chatterbox24

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People get to staunch and rigid in religion. I will give you an example. I have already stated I am a believer, a big believer. I don't mind being called silly or delusional at all. I am very proud I am a believer, and see changes in my life positively with staying with those beliefs, quite a few times in my life, I've pretty much tossed aside because the lectures of people on the one right religion, the one right way, this group will go, this group wont, all very negative and quite frankly turns people off of the true spiritual way. A wise Christian, if they are having a personal relationship with the most powerful guiding entity in their life, knows you cant rely on a man or woman on a pulpit alone because they are human. You must be lead by the word, and when a person of faith truly believes, the heart is lead to Gods words. ( and if you want to call the entity Powhontohsidre) you can, as long as that is the word you relate too, respectfully that is, its about what heart tells.
My friend and I had a discussion about this today, because her denomination believes, a woman can not be a preacher, because it says so right in the Bible. Ive read those verses, and read many others through the Bible, and to me that's a misinterpretation. God doesn't care who passes the good message along, just cares that its passed on, and everyone has the choice to know the good news. Now that's when religion goes down hill, when Christians get to caught up in things like that, because that's not the way it is suppose to be. Its about love and guidance, and believing in something that calls to you even when you cant see it. Funny thing is I walked away from what I believed in because of this very same concern years ago and Christians not acting very Christian, but I didn't know what I fortunately know now, is that its about you and God, and knowledge received very personally thorugh your own readings if your interested. Don't let religion keep you from finding the peace and contentment you can find even in the storms of life. I made that mistake several times in my life, and its one of the biggest and greatest honors one can find in life. Nothing like leaving the past behind with a brand new start, even when you have made (and still will) lots of mistakes in your life. Its a great feeling. Unfortunately it doesn't happen overnight, its little by little.

Now this is my very personal story. And I know this strikes a cord in some people, and if it does you might ask yourself why does it?
If one person reads this and it makes a difference in their life , I could just about jump over the moon because I cant tell you how happy I would for them. I cant tell you how much I mean that.

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RE: What is your truth? - 7/9/2013 6:29:01 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren
I will. Gullibility is believing something that is easily shown to be foolish (like, that chocolate milk comes from brown cows) or the infamous Nigerian prince fleeing the country scams....... Religious faith is inherently believing something that cannot be proven or disproven, that there is no measure of it. Now, there are elements of belief I can say are like that, for example, fundamentalist Christians believing the earth is 6000 years old, dinosaurs lived in the garden of Eden and evolution never happened, or the RC clinging to the idea the earth was the center of the solar system and universe until 1922.........Simply believing in God or the Divine is not gullibility, whereas, for example, someone believing the wafer and wine turns into flesh and blood (not symbolically, literally) because that could be tested (and shown to be false). If logic and reason can show a matter of faith to be false, then staying with it is folly and gullibility, believing something that cannot be proven or disproven is faith.

You mentioned young earth creationism, as such here's a question. Young earth creationism has existed since before scientific methods of determining the earths age. So is this how two people believing the same position for the same reason both ignorant of evidence to the contrary would look to you?

olden days young earth creationist = faithful

modern day young earth creationist = gullible

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RE: What is your truth? - 7/10/2013 11:35:02 PM

Kirata

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I've shortened the embedded quote and bolded what I think is clearly the claim being made:

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren

Religious faith is inherently believing something that cannot be proven or disproven

You mentioned young earth creationism, as such here's a question. Young earth creationism has existed since before scientific methods of determining the earths age. So is this how two people believing the same position for the same reason both ignorant of evidence to the contrary would look to you?

olden days young earth creationist = faithful

modern day young earth creationist = gullible

Unless, in your view, the honor is restricted to Christians, I wonder if this might be an example of the dumbest interpretation.

The age of the Earth can be proven, or at least estimated with sufficient accuracy to disprove wildly false claims about it. Whether or not someone has the means to do so is irrelevant. And while people may choose to take it on faith that the Earth is only 6000 years old, under the criteria given that faith cannot be categorized as religious.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 7/11/2013 12:26:22 AM >

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RE: What is your truth? - 7/11/2013 1:52:50 AM

MrBukani

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I watched an interesting docu about translating the rosetta stone. When finally they had mastered the hieroglyphs the church was not happy because egyptian records went back further then the supposed 6000 years in christian creationism.
Funn stuff to watch.

Ancient Egypt - The Mystery of the Rosetta Stone - BBC full Document

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RE: What is your truth? - 7/11/2013 5:11:48 AM

chatterbox24

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

I watched an interesting docu about translating the rosetta stone. When finally they had mastered the hieroglyphs the church was not happy because egyptian records went back further then the supposed 6000 years in christian creationism.
Funn stuff to watch.

Ancient Egypt - The Mystery of the Rosetta Stone - BBC full Document

I watched this, really some interesting stuff. Thanks for sharing.

When the scientists invent a teleporter, maybe then we will know if dinosaurs where in the garden of Eden, the beasts there were not identified, were they? hmmm. and Maybe they weren't. Really doesn't matter if the time period is exactly right, its the lessons that matter.

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RE: What is your truth? - 7/11/2013 7:29:43 AM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24
When the scientists invent a teleporter, maybe then we will know if dinosaurs where in the garden of Eden, the beasts there were not identified, were they? hmmm. and Maybe they weren't. Really doesn't matter if the time period is exactly right, its the lessons that matter.

I'd say it matters, if the Bible didn't present such an an abysmally wrong picture of reality 46% of the US population wouldn't be young earth creationists. All that misinformation over 2000 years later is still harming scientific education and progress.

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RE: What is your truth? - 7/11/2013 7:56:56 AM

chatterbox24

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That's fair.

I do not have a scientific mind, so I keep it pretty simple most of the time.
(I might malfunction otherwise)

If it matters to some, and that's how truth is revealed to them, whether they chose belief or not, well then your right it does matter. It just doesn't matter to me, on my own personal note.

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RE: What is your truth? - 7/11/2013 11:21:36 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

I'd say it matters, if the Bible didn't present such an an abysmally wrong picture of reality 46% of the US population wouldn't be young earth creationists. All that misinformation over 2000 years later is still harming scientific education and progress.

You've raised a very good point. Things are really getting out of hand. In my neighborhood alone, you have to be careful if you go out at night because of the gangs of Bibles roaming the streets. I can't tell you how many people have disappeared, to the great distress of their families and loved ones, only to return a day or two later reprogrammed as young-Earth zombies.

The police are helpless. Every time one of the perpetrators is identified, "that's definitely him, third from the right, the New Revised Version with the leather jacket, I'd recognize him anywhere," the defense produces millions of look-alikes, all virtually indistinguishable from each other, to establish reasonable doubt. Not a single victim identification has ever stuck.

And, there is a violent backlash brewing. Increasing numbers of ignorant bookists have begun agitating for getting rid of them altogether, pouring invective and hatred onto the fire with shouts and placards screaming "The only good Bible is a dead Bible!" At this point, I think few people doubt that the situation is bad and headed for worse. Thanks very much for your post.

K.

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RE: What is your truth? - 7/12/2013 7:12:59 AM

tweakabelle

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quote:

Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

I'd say it matters, if the Bible didn't present such an an abysmally wrong picture of reality 46% of the US population wouldn't be young earth creationists. All that misinformation over 2000 years later is still harming scientific education and progress.

You've raised a very good point.

Yes GS did raise a very good point. And that point deserved to be taken a little more seriously.

If 46% of the population in any supposedly advanced and literate country are "young earth creationists" then there is something seriously wrong with the educational system (to say the very least). It would appear that there is a severe shortage of critical analytical and evaluation skills. But that's hardly a surprise as often the same people who promote 'creationist' twaddle oppose teaching students the skills necessary to evaluate the nonsensical claims inherent in 'creationism' and its partner in intellectual crime, 'intelligent design' theories.

From where I sit, this refusal to teach students such important life skills is a form of child abuse. In this case, and contrary to the cliche, ignorance is sooooooo not bliss. It's ignorance.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 7/12/2013 7:18:37 AM >

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RE: What is your truth? - 7/12/2013 7:40:20 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Yes GS did raise a very good point. And that point deserved to be taken a little more seriously.

If 46% of the population in any supposedly advanced and literate country are "young earth creationists" then there is something seriously wrong with the educational system...

I completely agree with your point, but not at all with his. Blaming it on the eeeeevil Bible is nonsense.

K.

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