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[Poll]

What is your truth?

Truth is subjective/relative.

47% (23)

Truth is absolute.

52% (25)

Total Votes : 48

(last vote on : 7/11/2013 3:38:13 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )

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RE: What is your truth? - 7/4/2013 10:37:05 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

No human being is capable of being truly objective about anything.

I would venture that human beings cannot fly.

(But maybe that's just my subjective opinion)

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RE: What is your truth? - 7/4/2013 10:40:31 PM

tweakabelle

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quote:

(But maybe that's just my subjective opinion)

Yep.

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RE: What is your truth? - 7/5/2013 12:53:20 AM

MrBukani

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So anything goes and we are all racist, bigots, stupid, murderous, arrogant pigs etc.
What a wonderfull world of subjectivity.
Hey I just saw some shit flying by.

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RE: What is your truth? - 7/5/2013 1:37:45 AM

MrBukani

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I kinda like this 'new' reality of there is none.
It's just like my friend who watched the movie about quantum physics.
And he said you see that window, I said yes. He said, but it's not really there.
I asked him, do you really want to test that theory, while I smash that window through your face?

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RE: What is your truth? - 7/5/2013 3:14:30 AM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
When your headache clears, perhaps you could be kind enough to point how any human being might achieve the status of "objective" about anything.

No. I'm much too lazy to attempt that kind of argument.

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RE: What is your truth? - 7/5/2013 5:27:04 AM

chatterbox24

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dyfrynt

I'll leave the math to others. Never one of my best subjects!

It is fashionable to believe it is right and proper for everyone to believe their own perception of facts. In my (Oh So) humble opinion, this is madness. It is an illusion. Unfortunately a good deal of the time, the illusion is not perceived as preposterous as it actually is.

Here are some facts that are, I believe, immutable.

One can jump off the top of a ten story building, without any artificial or mechanical aid, and fly. Fact - you are going to go splat!

One can stand in front of an oncoming train and by shear power of your will, stop that train before it hits you. Fact - What's left of you after you fail will not be pretty.

Too literal?
Okay. The American War on Drugs can be won. We already tried this with the war on alcohol during Prohibition. Fact - we lost. The War on Drugs is a variant of the war on alcohol, and this current war will fail as completely as that one did.

Beliefs are beliefs. Facts are facts. Both have a useful function in modern society. Pretending beliefs are facts has no useful function; quite the opposite, this pretense destroys our ability to function constructively as a society.

I have to disagree with this bolded statement. It was actually beliefs, and the ability to have the freedom to practice beliefs, that founded America. Why do you think this country had the creativity it did, and became so powerful? If one man believes he can never do something, chances are he never will. But take a man who believes he can do all things, that man will exceed in things beyond the expectations of his own self, and others around him. Having beliefs is what banned people together to fight for what they BELIEVE. IT was faith, not fact. The day all the things this country was founded on, are completely gone. Unfortunately this country will fall. Is that a believe or fact? For me its FACT, because I believe it.
So I believe quite the opposite. Belief actually builds not destroys.

< Message edited by chatterbox24 -- 7/5/2013 5:29:30 AM >

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RE: What is your truth? - 7/5/2013 5:35:43 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24
For me its FACT, because I believe it.

Please believe that I am healthy, happy and immortal and eternally young.

< Message edited by Rule -- 7/5/2013 5:36:10 AM >

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RE: What is your truth? - 7/5/2013 5:45:04 AM

vincentML

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quote:

When your headache clears, perhaps you could be kind enough to point how any human being might achieve the status of "objective" about anything.

It matters not. There are macro realities that can be encountered and tested and which will remain unalterable by the subjectivity of the observers, Heisenberg notwithstanding. Your comment speaks to the limitations of individual observers and not to the nature of encountered realities. I quite agree that we all sift realities through our life experiences. I just found your objective assertion made from a subjective mind to be amusing.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 7/5/2013 5:46:15 AM >

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RE: What is your truth? - 7/5/2013 9:21:07 AM

GotSteel

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I need either a third option labelled both or a clarification as to whether you're referring to subjective or objective truth.

When I say "what does 1+1 equal?" there is objectively one correct answer to that question. But when I say "which ice cream tastes the best?" everyone here could give me a different "true" answer.

As such to have this conversation it's important that we all recognize that there are multiple definitions for truth or that you specify a definition and we refrain from making fallacious equivocations between it and different definitions of truth.

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RE: What is your truth? - 7/5/2013 9:39:52 AM

MrBukani

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Objective.

I think that was clear in the OP.
I do not even call it objective but absolute.
I even claim there is no such thing as subjective truth cause to me that is opinion not truth.

I will clarify a little of my assumption through the subject of beauty.
One thinks she's ugly the other thinks she's is beautifull.
Still to the observer it is an absolute, not relative or subjective.
That's why the word relative is better then subjective.
Cause subject and object can become confusing.

< Message edited by MrBukani -- 7/5/2013 9:49:21 AM >

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RE: What is your truth? - 7/5/2013 10:24:14 AM

Dyfrynt

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Beliefs are beliefs. Facts are facts. Both have a useful function in modern society. Pretending beliefs are facts has no useful function; quite the opposite, this pretense destroys our ability to function constructively as a society.

While accepting the distinction between beliefs and reality, between subjective and objective truth, I cannot arrive at your conclusion of detriment to constructive social functioning. People do not pretend their beliefs are facts. The KNOW they have THE truth. On this basis they form mutually self-affirming interest groups. These interest groups, belief tribes, compete with each other. Sometimes compromise emerges from the competition; more often not. So, the history of American society is an ongoing civil war. That is just the way it works. It is delusionary to expect harmony in a populace of 330 million people with different interests. The free market of ideas and political action does not work out of harmony, but discord.

Vincent,

I will go half way with you. There are a great many people who pretend their beliefs are facts. They know for a fact that the two are not the same, but act otherwise. And there are many who do believe their beliefs are facts.

Don't think I ever, ever, ever suggested I expected any kind of harmony! That is not so much from different interests though, but rather different agendas.

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RE: What is your truth? - 7/5/2013 10:35:41 AM

Dyfrynt

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Chatterbox, I don't think I ever suggested that beliefs were inherently a bad thing. The power of belief can be a very powerful motivating factor. For good or evil. What I did state, and stand by, is that beliefs and facts are not necessarily the same thing. And that as a society we cause ourselves a lot of heartache by pretending it is otherwise.

Your comment "Unfortunately this country will fall. Is that a believe or fact? For me its FACT, because I believe it."

No I gotta part ways with you here. You believe this country will fall. Just because you believe that does not make it a fact. This is the insidious spread of illusion that spreads like a cancer through modern day western societies. You have a belief. It may indeed turn out to be a fact, but we cannot know that. Only when the country does indeed fall does it become a fact.

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RE: What is your truth? - 7/5/2013 10:37:07 AM

MrBukani

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Let's elaborate a little more as to why I make this claim.
The opposite of true is false, right?
But what is the opposite of truth?
falsehood? I don't think so, that's the trapping of translation. English false comes from dutch/german 'vals/falsch'. Valsheid, thats falsehood doesn't mean the collective of false but a state/being of evil or wrong.
Hence there is no collective of false, cause it is something wich stands on it's own to be corrected
There is a collective of truth cause it's absolute and all encompassing.

That is why I claim this theory to be true.
Language is the essence of our evolution.
Just like you can slam the real meaning of other words to slang. Like style and class.
Oh she got style she got class, wich kinda means the same in slang.
In reality class is a grade and style is belonging to a certain group like punk or rock.

This is the core reason people say life is hard, while it is supposed to be easy.
Confusion is a tactic of the upperclass to control the masses.

< Message edited by MrBukani -- 7/5/2013 11:07:09 AM >

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RE: What is your truth? - 7/5/2013 10:40:11 AM

MasterCaneman

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

I need either a third option labelled both or a clarification as to whether you're referring to subjective or objective truth.

When I say "what does 1+1 equal?" there is objectively one correct answer to that question. But when I say "which ice cream tastes the best?" everyone here could give me a different "true" answer.

As such to have this conversation it's important that we all recognize that there are multiple definitions for truth or that you specify a definition and we refrain from making fallacious equivocations between it and different definitions of truth.

That sums it up for me right there. There are 'hard' truths that cannot be altered by subjective viewing (gravity, death, taxes, etc), and others that can be altered to suit the viewpoint of a person/entity.

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RE: What is your truth? - 7/5/2013 10:44:26 AM

MrBukani

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We are the Borg
Resistance is futile
We will assimilate you
to rational thoughts...

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RE: What is your truth? - 7/5/2013 11:00:27 AM

MrBukani

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Exactly MasterCaneman
Viewpoint, perception, opinion does not constitute absolute reality/truth necessarily( what a diffcult word to spell necessarily)

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RE: What is your truth? - 7/5/2013 11:09:01 AM

Dyfrynt

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The opposite of true is false, right? But what is the opposite of truth?

The opposite of Truth is a falsehood, or a lie. According to Mr. Thesaurus!

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RE: What is your truth? - 7/5/2013 11:21:21 AM

chatterbox24

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24
For me its FACT, because I believe it.

Please believe that I am healthy, happy and immortal and eternally young.

Let me wave my magic wand. LOL. This may possibly be your truth and fact. But sadly, you will decay of body in this lifetime, trust me my boobs can tell that story too.

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RE: What is your truth? - 7/5/2013 11:23:53 AM

chatterbox24

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dyfrynt

Chatterbox, I don't think I ever suggested that beliefs were inherently a bad thing. The power of belief can be a very powerful motivating factor. For good or evil. What I did state, and stand by, is that beliefs and facts are not necessarily the same thing. And that as a society we cause ourselves a lot of heartache by pretending it is otherwise.

Your comment "Unfortunately this country will fall. Is that a believe or fact? For me its FACT, because I believe it."

No I gotta part ways with you here. You believe this country will fall. Just because you believe that does not make it a fact. This is the insidious spread of illusion that spreads like a cancer through modern day western societies. You have a belief. It may indeed turn out to be a fact, but we cannot know that. Only when the country does indeed fall does it become a fact.

You got me there. My belief does not make it so, I just read from a 3500 yr old Book that I believe is fact. But you are right! only time will tell the fact.

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RE: What is your truth? - 7/5/2013 11:36:05 AM

MrBukani

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dyfrynt

The opposite of true is false, right? But what is the opposite of truth?

The opposite of Truth is a falsehood, or a lie. According to Mr. Thesaurus!

Well you could say that, but my point was that falsehood or a lie is a singular object while truth is a collective of all.
In the sense that you can have a string of lies wich can all be detroyed with one truth for example.
You can also have one lie destroy your whole life but never the whole truth.
It is just that somebody is fed with a lotta lies and doesn't know the truth.
But the (absolute)truth is an entity on it's own. Incorruptable to the ones who know it.
Again I know my explanation might be a little hard to comprehend because you can relate the context different.
I am not perfect but I can strive for some perfection, that's only natural.

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