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RE: Tens unit placement on females - 7/3/2013 7:34:57 AM   
crazyml


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MalcolmNathaniel




You would be funny if you weren't so dangerous. I am an electrical engineer and I did my junior project on electrocution.



I must apologise, I had no idea that you were this well qualified.

May I impose on your expertise to point out what was "dangerous" in my response to you?

It would be really helpful if you could point this out as an aid to my understanding, and that of other people.



quote:




Everything you said is wrong. Dangerously wrong.




Really... everything?

Oh gosh. That does seem like rather a lot.

Help me out here.

I said that what matters is the amount of energy. Are you saying that the amount of energy does not matter at all? Or are you arguing that it matters less than the frequency?

I pointed out that the energy can be measured in Joules. I didn't happen across "joules" by chance. As an electrical engineer with some specific expertise in electrocution, you'll (of course) be familiar with the fact that defibrillation machines apply shocks that are measured in joules.

Are you saying that defibrillation machines don't use joules as a measure of the energy they apply?

I'm not doubting your expertise, you understand, but it would be startling if all those research scientists had got the wrong end of the stick!

Have you considered publishing a paper?

I provided a definition of joules - watt-seconds. I'm quite sure that you wouldn't, as an expert, say this was wrong. Because that would indeed by fucking silly. On account of watt-second being precisely the definition of joule.

You'll recall that I did say that frequency does have an effect. You can't be saying that this is wrong, since I think it's rather the point that you're trying to make.

I also said "if you pop 300 joules across a heart, the frequencey isn't going to matter a fuck". Are you saying that this is wrong?


quote:





You don't even understand why it it is the frequency of the signal rather than the energy involved.



No, I don't understand why this is, because this isn't actually true.

Yes, frequency does have an effect - Especially if it's close to the frequency of the heart or (Big word coming) one of its harmonics, but for that frequency to have an effect, the electrical signal has to actually make it to the heart.... and for that, as you (like any qualified electical engineer) will know means that some Volts and amps have to wend their way through the resistive material that is the body and pass over the muscles.

quote:



Do you even know what a Joule is? Do you know the difference between an Amp and a Volt?


Yes I do, thanks.

I'm surprised that you asked me if I knew what a joule is, as I provided a definition.

If you think my definition is wrong, then you don't know what a joule is.

quote:


Do you know why 60 Hz AC (the standard in North America) is so dangerous and why we use such a dangerous standard for electrical power?


Yes I do understand why 50 or 60 hz AC is more dangerous than DC at comparable voltages.

And oddly - I do know why the US uses 60hz as this came up in a conversation I was having quite recently with a chap who installs electricity sub stations.



quote:



The answer to all those questions is: NO!


Can we just agree to differ on this?

quote:


Don't try to teach your grandmother how to milk ducks.


I wasn't trying to teach anyone to milk ducks, I was pointing out the desperate silliness of your assertion "When it comes to the heart it isn't so much amperage as it is frequency." Which is utter utter bollocks. It is so shockingly bad a thing to say that I had to step in and point out the dangerously stupid nature of that statement.



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RE: Tens unit placement on females - 7/3/2013 7:36:56 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MalcolmNathaniel

Whatever. i don't need to convince you.

To everyone else: Everything he said that sounds "sciencey" is patently untrue. My engineering degree cost a wee bit more than ten bucks.

Believe me or not; it's your choice. I am done here.


Oh please come back, I am so keen to learn from you.

I even redid my post so it was less rude.

Although, I do still maintain that to argue that it's not current that kills someone but the frequency is very very silly.

_____________________________

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RE: Tens unit placement on females - 7/3/2013 8:27:15 AM   
MalcolmNathaniel


Posts: 1394
Joined: 9/20/2010
Status: offline 		How would I benefit from continuing this conversation?

It would be like trying to teach a pig to sing: it would waste my time and annoy the pig.

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RE: Tens unit placement on females - 7/3/2013 1:17:52 PM   
MistressDarkArt


Posts: 5178
Status: offline 		OK folks, in spite of all that stuff above, let me just say it like this:

Use estim below the waist.

If you MUST fool around with it on your nipples, make sure each nipple gets a closed circuit as in channel 1, positive pad on one side, negative on the other. Refer to smarstim for safer placement configurations and trode designs.

The end.

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RE: Tens unit placement on females - 7/3/2013 1:32:50 PM   
Slappy


Posts: 2
Joined: 5/7/2005
Status: offline 		Ok thanks for the advice just to let everyone know the tens unit is only 9V DC not 220 AC lol

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RE: Tens unit placement on females - 7/3/2013 1:36:32 PM   
epiphiny43


Posts: 688
Joined: 10/20/2006
Status: offline 		Thankfully, you are done? Note the actual FACT that there have been NO incidents reported to the FDA or OSHA since the beginning of TENS use nor are there reports from other countries. I'll guess this is another place where 'You have to have been to college to say something so dumb."
People who design existing licensed electro-medical equipment have written on the dangers of trans-thorax current at TEMS levels and are underwhelmed by the possibilities a 100ma current of whatever polarity, period or pattern can cause mischief when applied to the skin at Any point. 100ma at the point of contact necessarily either follows the surface or diffuses across the whole of the available conductive mass before focusing again on the other contact. The heart and it's nerve centers are imbedded in layers of skin, fat, bone and muscle making some mystical penetration of a marginal amperage to just one critical spot deep in the chest 'unlikely'. Impossible is a more accurate term, given over half a century of actual practice. Again, the presence of a WIRE leading to the nerve center changes the situation dramatically.
110vAC is dangerous? Do much Straw Man arguing?? So is water and breathing. I've had numerous (accidental) 110AC current passages across the chest (hand to hand) messing with house mains and devices. NOT fun, I and all my actually professional electrician friends are still here. A few who were hit by distribution level currents did less well. The number of deaths that don't involve continued exposure (Sitting in water and dropping the hair drier in the bath?) is a small proportion of those shocked. AC electrocution usually involves continued current application to suffocation as heart and lung function is impaired or stopped. The AC doesn't kill, the AC stops a vital body function that if continued to be blocked, ends in death. Situations where body collapse removes the current are normally survived well. Formal prison electrocutions (At significantly elevated AC current levels!) are noted for NOT killing in a disturbing amount after a number of normally 'long enough' applications of current. The first time should have cleared the air? From Wikipedia:
quote:


Execution by electrocution, using an electric chair, has been employed as an official method of capital punishment in only two countries, the United States and the Philippines, and is now almost obsolete. It was invented in the US in 1881 as a more humane alternative to hanging. It was promoted by inventor Thomas Edison, who built the first electric chair, and conducted many public tests on animals, using alternating current (AC) electricity. Part of Edison's motivation was to make AC electricity look dangerous in the public eye, to give his competing DC electric distribution system an advantage in the war of the currents. The first person to be executed by electrocution was William Kemmler in New York's Auburn prison on August 6, 1890. One thousand volts was applied to his body for 17 seconds, however he was found to be still breathing and a second shock of 2000 volts was required to kill him.



European standard 220AC is more dangerous, still not the body count suggested. Are you channeling Mr. Edison?? His BS on 'electrocution' played well a hundred years ago, and then people actually looked at reality and the energy issues of DC and AC with existing voltage stepping technology and accepted the 'dangers'.
DC is returning to building and sector at close range use as the technology to manage aspects of current have changed. ALL IRRELEVANT to the thread in that all TENS and E-stim equipment discussed is DC? Good try, but what is your point?

The EMPI 'warning' quotes copied above do not exist in earlier EMPI product literature, I've got one myself. There is no actual evidence, but the continued harping on 'above the waist' dangers by those immune to evidence based understanding obviously has the EMPI lawyers exercised. Note the lack of earlier considerations of the Carotid artery, someone missed a vague worry to natter about? Difficulty breathing is a rather easy situation to recognize and remedy. Spasming brain supply arteries might not be. But again, NO cases in the medical literature exist to date. I find a total lack of evidence 'persuasive' given that TENS are one of the most if not THE most used of electrical medical home and clinic appliances with billions of uses yearly.



< Message edited by epiphiny43 -- 7/3/2013 1:56:10 PM >

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RE: Tens unit placement on females - 7/3/2013 1:40:19 PM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline 		Oh bless your heart... You can't respond can you.

Oh that must burn, to be made to look so foolish.

Big hug!

_____________________________

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RE: Tens unit placement on females - 7/3/2013 1:44:06 PM   
epiphiny43


Posts: 688
Joined: 10/20/2006
Status: offline 		Even 'safer', and a subtly different sensation, is two contacts at each (Or the only) nipple. NO 'cross chest' current to panic about!! Push pins with protruding tips in each jaw of a spring clothes pin with a wire to each push pin makes both a nipple clamp and TENS contact. And I find point contacts (Needle tips) a different sensation than diffuse contacts like the supplied pads and conductive gel. With a two channel device, different applications to each nipple are easy. Unfortunately, only the voltage varies with each channel on my machine, the pattern (4 selectable: constant, pulsing and two pattern pulsing) is common to both channels. Two TENS, so totally independent channels, gives more 'creative' freedom for the top to work with.

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RE: Tens unit placement on females - 7/3/2013 1:47:32 PM   
epiphiny43


Posts: 688
Joined: 10/20/2006
Status: offline 		Opps, trying to sort out editing

< Message edited by epiphiny43 -- 7/3/2013 1:54:21 PM >

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RE: Tens unit placement on females - 7/3/2013 1:48:51 PM   
epiphiny43


Posts: 688
Joined: 10/20/2006
Status: offline 		STILL sorting it out.

< Message edited by epiphiny43 -- 7/3/2013 1:54:50 PM >

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RE: Tens unit placement on females - 7/3/2013 1:53:46 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Well fuck it all then, lets hook up a defibrollator to them MacGuffies stat!!!!!

You tell 25 year old kids that shoving ice cubes up there ass is dangerous, but they don't get it, they're invincible.

Hell you shoved an icecube up my ass, the cholesterol flaking off my veins would set up a rumble you could hear over the sound of the Niagra falls even if you were standing under it.

Obviously, don't try to fuck with the heart, and leave it out if you are at all scared, and don't screw around with angina folks and folks with arrhythmocardia (someone spell that shit for me, please!!!) Don't use water with them on your chest.

Hey, hey, hey!!!!! And let's be careful out there, kids.



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RE: Tens unit placement on females - 7/3/2013 2:01:45 PM   
epiphiny43


Posts: 688
Joined: 10/20/2006
Status: offline 		Yes, existing medical conditions probably are wise to keep in mind during play. But I'm wondering how low currents are more dangerous to vulnerable hearts than orgasms? Just how many 'hos' have had to push some dead weight of expired heart patient off themself? If fun isn't dangerous, why do it?

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Tens unit placement on females - 7/3/2013 2:27:38 PM   
UllrsIshtar


Posts: 3693
Joined: 7/28/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MalcolmNathaniel

How would I benefit from continuing this conversation?

It would be like trying to teach a pig to sing: it would waste my time and annoy the pig.


There wouldn't be any direct benefit to yourself, other than the glory of sharing your hard-earned expertise with a couple of non-pigs in the audience who frankly are rather curious to what a genuine degreed expert in the this field would have to contribute in understanding.

I understand and respect not wanting to put in the time and effort because you have better things to do, but at the same time the selfishness of not doing so is something I don't appreciate.

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

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RE: Tens unit placement on females - 7/3/2013 2:30:43 PM   
MistressDarkArt


Posts: 5178
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: epiphiny43

Push pins with protruding tips in each jaw of a spring clothes pin with a wire to each push pin makes both a nipple clamp and TENS contact. And I find point contacts (Needle tips) a different sensation than diffuse contacts like the supplied pads and conductive gel.


Pads can also be cut down with scissors to make them more vicious, erm, I mean 'focused'. Since electricity likes to go to the area of least resistance, you can experiment by using one large pad and one smaller on the same channel, putting the smaller on the area you want it to concentrate on.


< Message edited by MistressDarkArt -- 7/3/2013 2:31:20 PM >

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RE: Tens unit placement on females - 7/3/2013 2:52:33 PM   
MalcolmNathaniel


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Joined: 9/20/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

Oh that must burn, to be made to look so foolish.


Yes I feel quite foolish. Because I tried to argue with fools.

Want to know why such small amperage in the wrong place is so dangerous? Your heart works on a very precise schedule of electrical impulses that contract the various part of the muscle in a precise way. That signal looks exactly like what you've seen on TV: One big burst followed by a small dip and then a smaller burst followed by a smaller dip.

When that signal becomes a sine wave we call that fibrillation, AKA a heart attack. That is when all of the chambers of your heart try to pump at the same time at cross-purposes.

Normally your central nervous system sends these signals to your heart at a few micro-amps. A mere 15 micro-amps is all it takes to disrupt this signal and cause fibrillation. By contrast it takes close to 25 milli-amps to cause contractions in other muscles. That's well over 3 orders of magnitude.

Yes, I know why Thomas Edison electrocuted an elephant: it was a publicity stunt because Tesla was outselling him. The fact is that electrical transmission is made far more efficient by alternating current. It's also far more dangerous because it breaks down the dielectric of the skin. That's what we engineers call a "trade-off." We are trading the increased danger for the more efficient transmission of power (by orders of magnitude.)

The dielectric breakdown of human skin just happens to be right around where the most efficient transmission by copper wire is: 50 to 60 Hertz.

But what do I know? I went to college just so I can say stupid things.

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RE: Tens unit placement on females - 7/3/2013 5:46:45 PM   
epiphiny43


Posts: 688
Joined: 10/20/2006
Status: offline 		Tesla? You got A's in EE history? Try George W. It was in all the papers, hard to miss.
The problem with electrical play isn't skin resistance breakdown, it's the near total lack of understanding of the differential resistances of paths over and through the body. Why workers (usually) survive hand to hand (This means direct path is Across the upper chest and both diaphragm and heart nerves?) 220AC at considerable amperage and 100ma along a Pacemaker wire to the critical nerve center is sufficient to disrupts heart rhythm. Current doesn't take the Shortest path, it takes the Least Resistance path. And if skin resistance breaks down right at commercial AC Hertz, there's a WHY current travels over the surface of the body preferentially? (Lightning strikes vaporise and even take flesh to plasma, so have somewhat different behaviors.) And your micro-amps isn't what the people working with Pacemakers consider dangerous. 80-100ma has been quoted in public literature. Being a professional, I'm sure you have even better access to that? Electrical potential measured during nerve function isn't that function. It's a byproduct of the chemical messages within the nerve and at the communication pads at each nerve contact. All such nerves are bundles, not single fibers. How exterior current affects these nerve bundles during group firing is still not well understood. But empirical tests do show what Doesn't kill!
Missing is discussion on how Long a heart disruption has to continue to prevent it's re-establishment when the exterior current is removed. Mr. Kemmler took 17 sec. of 1000vAC (typical GW Hertz?) and returned to functional vital signs. So they doubled the voltage, and presumably the current. I'll guess a lot of sex E-machine players are both older and in poorer health. Still, we keep coming back to NO Deaths and no recorded ER admittances from existing equipment. I'll also guess most gets used some before people get bored with the new toy and move to other adventures? Theorists discuss, Engineers are Supposed to test. The test results are in. HUGE sample! Case closed.

< Message edited by epiphiny43 -- 7/3/2013 5:50:21 PM >

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RE: Tens unit placement on females - 7/3/2013 5:56:41 PM   
MalcolmNathaniel


Posts: 1394
Joined: 9/20/2010
Status: offline 		Electricity takes the least resistant path?

Electricity takes ALL paths.

R=R1*R2/(R1+R2)

That's highschool physics, not even college level.

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RE: Tens unit placement on females - 7/3/2013 9:22:27 PM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MalcolmNathaniel


quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

Oh that must burn, to be made to look so foolish.


Yes I feel quite foolish. Because I tried to argue with fools.


And yet you didn't actually answer all of my questions.

You made a bold claim about everything in one of my posts being wrong. I asked you to demonstrate it.

If you cant, then... we all get to know the stupid one.

quote:



Want to know why such small amperage in the wrong place is so dangerous? Your heart works on a very precise schedule of electrical impulses that contract the various part of the muscle in a precise way. That signal looks exactly like what you've seen on TV: One big burst followed by a small dip and then a smaller burst followed by a smaller dip.


Oh fuck me! That's where this misunderstanding came from.

You're assuming that there's a danger that people might rip open each other's chests and place the pads directly on the heart?

Oh fuck me! I hadn't considered that as a possibility.

Well of course that changes everything.

No wait a second.... no it fucking doesn't.

The statement "When it comes to the heart it isn't so much amperage as it is frequency." is still fucking bullshit.



quote:



When that signal becomes a sine wave we call that fibrillation, AKA a heart attack. That is when all of the chambers of your heart try to pump at the same time at cross-purposes.

Normally your central nervous system sends these signals to your heart at a few micro-amps. A mere 15 micro-amps is all it takes to disrupt this signal and cause fibrillation. By contrast it takes close to 25 milli-amps to cause contractions in other muscles. That's well over 3 orders of magnitude.


Really... 15 microamps. Gosh. So all those defibrillators that pump out 300 joules you mean they're just WASTING ELECTRICITY?

Even internal paddles - you know the spoons they press directly against the beating heart run at 12 or so joules.



quote:





But what do I know? I went to college just so I can say stupid things.


You appear to know a lot less than you think.

And many of us have been to college sunshine.

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Tens unit placement on females - 7/3/2013 9:43:28 PM   
DOM68005


Posts: 6069
Joined: 12/5/2006
From: Nebraska
Status: offline 		ElectroSluts ... a subscription video website shows various electric play in action. Some sample videos clips are available.

Some of their play exceeds my level of RACK comfort or is shown in places I would not do it. Other postings here seem to agree in that concept.

Usual disclaimer: I do NOT know the equipment, brand nor model of unit they use. I do NOT know their level of expertise. Some of the videos are a joke in terms of visible electoplay reaction. Some show visible reactions. YMMV

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Tens unit placement on females - 7/3/2013 10:20:04 PM   
njlauren


Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: epiphiny43

Tesla? You got A's in EE history? Try George W. It was in all the papers, hard to miss.
The problem with electrical play isn't skin resistance breakdown, it's the near total lack of understanding of the differential resistances of paths over and through the body. Why workers (usually) survive hand to hand (This means direct path is Across the upper chest and both diaphragm and heart nerves?) 220AC at considerable amperage and 100ma along a Pacemaker wire to the critical nerve center is sufficient to disrupts heart rhythm. Current doesn't take the Shortest path, it takes the Least Resistance path. And if skin resistance breaks down right at commercial AC Hertz, there's a WHY current travels over the surface of the body preferentially? (Lightning strikes vaporise and even take flesh to plasma, so have somewhat different behaviors.) And your micro-amps isn't what the people working with Pacemakers consider dangerous. 80-100ma has been quoted in public literature. Being a professional, I'm sure you have even better access to that? Electrical potential measured during nerve function isn't that function. It's a byproduct of the chemical messages within the nerve and at the communication pads at each nerve contact. All such nerves are bundles, not single fibers. How exterior current affects these nerve bundles during group firing is still not well understood. But empirical tests do show what Doesn't kill!
Missing is discussion on how Long a heart disruption has to continue to prevent it's re-establishment when the exterior current is removed. Mr. Kemmler took 17 sec. of 1000vAC (typical GW Hertz?) and returned to functional vital signs. So they doubled the voltage, and presumably the current. I'll guess a lot of sex E-machine players are both older and in poorer health. Still, we keep coming back to NO Deaths and no recorded ER admittances from existing equipment. I'll also guess most gets used some before people get bored with the new toy and move to other adventures? Theorists discuss, Engineers are Supposed to test. The test results are in. HUGE sample! Case closed.


I suggest you watch the history channel's show "the men who made america"...Tesla invented polyphase AC that we use, Tesla worked for Edison, Edison was enamored of DC (he didn't care about long distance transmission, he thought it would be generated locally), and told Tesla to fly a hike, Tesla went to Westinghouse, who saw merit in it, and backed efforts to use it. JP Morgan , who had backed Edison, forced him out, threatened to destroy westinghouse in a patent battle, got the right to Tesla's AC system and formed GE.

Malcolm is right about why frequency is important with the heart, it disrupts the impulses that control the heart and as a result, the heat can go into fibrillation. When you use a defibrillator, it breaks the fibrillation and returns to a sinus rhythm. If you looked at heart signals on an oscilloscope you would see something quite similar to the sine wave pattern of AC.

Tens units if I remember correctly uses pulsed DC, which in theory shouldn't cause problems with the heart, but it often is hard to predict what it could do if the output of the tens went across the heart. The safest way to play with a tens unit on the chest is to have something with the positive and negatie side together, so the current travels only a short distance locally (and if dual channel, i.e one on one nipple, one on the other, they don't share a common ground).

The real answer is if you don't know, do the research and find out before trying electrical, non static toys above the heart. There are varying levels of risk, a tens unit with pulse dc is probably low risk to disrupt the heart, but it could. I was part of a rescue squad when a worker got a relatively low level shock from a DC power unit at a lab workstation but it caused him for some reason to have his heart defib, it was probably a combination of the guy having a weak heart and a freak accidents, but you never know. I am not an EE, but I grew up in a family with several in it, and learned a healthy respect for any kind of power.

The reason they chose AC is long distance transmission of DC power at the time would have been difficult, AC is a lot easier to transmit via high tension and stepping it up/down is a lot easier (DC has advantages of simplicity, you can do things are relatively lower voltages, with DC you can control motor speed with a simple rheostat, among other things). DC if I remember correctly has larger power losses over distance.....


(in reply to epiphiny43)
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