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RE: Tens unit placement on females - 7/10/2013 12:29:29 PM

PreviouslyVC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkfeather

I fail to see how you get lame from the video...

Mainly because of the risk posed by previously undetected congenital heart defects. Those blokes didn't have them, it turned out. You might. I might. The risk is low but the consequences are high, and the risk avoidance technique of just... not crossing the spine/going close to the heart is not a big deal to follow.

GotSteel, if you were prescribed a specific technique for a specific injury that's cool. But given that both my GP and the instructions on my unit say not to, I'm still going to go with that because the people I'm playing with don't have that specific injury - we're just doing this for kicks, after all - and, again, it's really not that big a deal just to not cross the spine.

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Post #: 61

RE: Tens unit placement on females - 7/10/2013 1:19:52 PM

Darkfeather

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PreviouslyVC

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkfeather

I fail to see how you get lame from the video...

Mainly because of the risk posed by previously undetected congenital heart defects. Those blokes didn't have them, it turned out. You might. I might. The risk is low but the consequences are high, and the risk avoidance technique of just... not crossing the spine/going close to the heart is not a big deal to follow.

GotSteel, if you were prescribed a specific technique for a specific injury that's cool. But given that both my GP and the instructions on my unit say not to, I'm still going to go with that because the people I'm playing with don't have that specific injury - we're just doing this for kicks, after all - and, again, it's really not that big a deal just to not cross the spine.

Oh please, you aren't seriously suggesting the TENS unit is fatally dangerous because of the possibility, the POSSIBILITY, of it being used on someone with a congenital heart defect??? Let me clue you into some numbers. One study estimated that, in 2002, there were 650,000 to 1.3 million adults living with a congenital heart defect. To estimate this, researchers used prevalence at birth and estimated the number of individuals expected to survive, with and without treatment. Another study estimated that, in 2000, about 850,000 adults were living with a congenital heart defect, with about 80,000 of these individuals living with a severe heart defect. To obtain this estimate, researchers used data from administrative health care databases in an area where health care was universal. Based on those studies, there likely are nearly 1 million adults in the United States living with a congenital heart defect. Now given that the population of the United States was approximately 288 million in 2002, we divide 1 million by that to get the percentage of the population likely to be affected by a congenital heart defect in 2002. Lets see, 1 divided by 288 gives us, hmm .3%... That means you have a .3% chance of walking up to a random person on a random street in a random city in this country, turning on a TENS unit to full strength, and even remotely finding issue with them having a congenital heart defect. Hate to break this to ya, but the odds of winning the Powerball are only 1 in 175 million. That means you have a better chance of winning that than you do of even finding someone with a defect, let alone killing them

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Post #: 62

RE: Tens unit placement on females - 7/10/2013 2:20:26 PM

PreviouslyVC

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Eh. It happened to someone on the Southwest scene when I first started getting involved in the public kink scene. It put me off. (Although I think that might have been some other kind of electro play rather than a TENS unit - can't remember.)

Like I said: low risk, but the risk avoidance technique is low impact. And a couple of guys in good health doing a particular thing once in front of a camera and not being injured is still a lame piece of evidence that that thing is safe for everybody all the time.

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Post #: 63

RE: Tens unit placement on females - 7/10/2013 2:59:04 PM

PreviouslyVC

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Also, this whole side discussion about the ins and outs of what my GP actually said is not all that relevant to my initial point, which is that if my health professional is willing to send me away to use the thing with two and a half minutes' explanation it's most likely going to be fucking fine to use, within the stated instructions.

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Post #: 64

RE: Tens unit placement on females - 7/10/2013 5:14:24 PM

Darkfeather

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And these statements are exactly why the myth, MYTH prevails to this day. So basically you are saying you have more faith in the word of your doctor and the .3 percent chance a possible complication of heart problem may occur, rather than two guys actually doing it in person, on camera. Now in contrast, your doctor has no evidence, clinical or empirical to support his statement. You yourself can't even remember if the TENS unit was involved in this off-putting incident. And yet you have more faith in both, than the actual proof presented of a TENS unit in the "evil" way but with no injuries and no deaths. For me, I like to actually have to have some proof if I were to vehemently argue a point this much, some case of a TENS unit causing heart arrhythmia, or even effecting the heart in any way. But ever since the modern TENS unit was patented in 1974, it hasn't happened. Not one documented case. But people still swear its true... Of course as I said, fights ensue over whether Santa is real

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Post #: 65

RE: Tens unit placement on females - 7/10/2013 5:39:56 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PreviouslyVC
and, again, it's really not that big a deal just to not cross the spine.

Well I can't say I've ever done that in play so *shrug* not a big deal but I also wonder what hypothetical issue you're even trying to prevent.

< Message edited by GotSteel -- 7/10/2013 5:40:29 PM >

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Post #: 66

RE: Tens unit placement on females - 7/10/2013 6:21:47 PM

ChatteParfaitt

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I think it's very important to note in this discussion that not all tens units are equal. My small hand held device packs a fairly good wallop for it's size, but my PT has a huge electro massage machine that provides some very intense sensation.

Since my small unit can make my muscles spasm quite dramatically, I have no doubt it could cause a dangerous heart or throat spasm, which is why I avoid certain areas.

The age of the unit plays a part as well. Its my understanding that older ones that pack a wallop can be even more dangerous if used improperly.

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Post #: 67

RE: Tens unit placement on females - 7/10/2013 6:28:57 PM

GotSteel

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Actually PreviouslyVC is right on that one. The trial shown in the youtube video has a sample size way to small to actually demonstrate that nipple to nipple stim is safe. It only proves that said technique isn't always deadly.

Now the clinical trials to get FDA approval on the other hand were quite a bit more involved. TENS units are quite safe.

I think you're justified to be a bit exasperated with all the urban legends about estim and my recommendation for increasing education and dispelling myths on the subject is to recommend that anyone interested in estim visit smartstim.com

For those who don't know it's a forum entirely devoted to estim and is the best most complete source on the subject. They have done this topic to death, the result being a message about how stimming across the heart has been known to cause irregular heartbeat and as such poses a hypothetical risk for people with heart conditions.

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Post #: 68

RE: Tens unit placement on females - 7/10/2013 7:25:20 PM

Darkfeather

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

I think it's very important to note in this discussion that not all tens units are equal. My small hand held device packs a fairly good wallop for it's size, but my PT has a huge electro massage machine that provides some very intense sensation.

Since my small unit can make my muscles spasm quite dramatically, I have no doubt it could cause a dangerous heart or throat spasm, which is why I avoid certain areas.

The age of the unit plays a part as well. Its my understanding that older ones that pack a wallop can be even more dangerous if used improperly.

Now this has some truth to it. TENS units can in fact overstimulate the nerve and cause the muscle group to contract violently. There are even documented cases of people who have pulled or torn muscles, broken bones, all attributed to overtly high or malfunctioning TENS. But these have nothing to do with crossing the waist-death barrier, and all this information can be found. Is a TENS unit safe yes. Should you give one to your 3 year-old to play with, not on your life. Why, because while safe, you still have to exercise some basic knowledge and common sense while using it. But there is a big difference between learning the right settings to keep from tearing your abdominal muscles, and an overwhelming fear you will electrocute yourself if you place a pad above your bellybutton. But I say again, the TENS unit has been around since 1974. That's almost 40 years. 40 years and not one verifiable, documented case of damage or risk to the heart. You know, you type in getting hit by plane landing gear falling out of the sky, and you get at hits of documented cases, but heart death or damage by TENS... NONE. That has got to put this into perspective

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)

Post #: 69

RE: Tens unit placement on females - 7/11/2013 1:14:07 AM

Whiplashsmile4

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I'm still laughing over this business of not connecting it above the waist line...this being true edge play. It's not a pair of jumper cables hooked up to car battery. LOL

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Post #: 70

RE: Tens unit placement on females - 7/11/2013 3:01:37 AM

ChatteParfaitt

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I routinely use my tens above the waist. It was specifically proscribed for my back, so I use it along my spine, on my lower back, and on my shoulders.

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Post #: 71

RE: Tens unit placement on females - 7/12/2013 12:15:34 AM

MalcolmNathaniel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4

I'm still laughing over this business of not connecting it above the waist line...this being true edge play. It's not a pair of jumper cables hooked up to car battery. LOL

12 volts DC? I laugh at that. Actually, you know what? 12 volts DC I'd let you put that across my heart.

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Post #: 72

RE: Tens unit placement on females - 7/12/2013 12:17:00 AM

MalcolmNathaniel

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Caveat: without piercing the skin.

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Post #: 73

RE: Tens unit placement on females - 7/12/2013 12:35:22 AM

Darkfeather

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Quoted source here mysteriously says its kinda impractical/improbable to electrocute someone. Even with a Taser...

"Seven milliamps. For three seconds. That's all it takes. Electricity kills you by interrupting your heart rhythm. If 7 milliamps reaches your heart continuously for three seconds, "your heart goes arrhythmic," he explained. Then everything else starts shutting down. "You could quite easily kill someone with a 9-volt or AAA battery directly to the heart."

The reason electricity isn't able to murder millions of people a day with ultra-tiny shocks is that our bodies have built-in resistance against electricity, so it doesn't shoot straight to our heart. The skin's resistance is about 5,000 to 15,000 ohms. Adam said that "it's super difficult to quantify" precisely how much juice you need to break through, since there's all kinds of variables in play, like the clothes you're wearing. Not to mention, "how do you quantify that someone's actually died?"

But if it's any consolation, Adam says that the kind of static shock that actually stings your skin is about 20,000 volts—high voltage, just a really tiny amperage.

So the trick is getting the proper amount of power to cut through our skin and clothes and rubber-soled shoes to zap our heart. There's a reliable way to do that: Lightning. With lightning, Adam said, "all bets are off." A lightning bolt can hit over a billion volts. Air's resistance, he explained, is about 10,000 volts per centimeter—so for electricity to move just 10cm through air requires 100,000 volts.

Machines could generate lightning artificially—this dude Charles Steinmetz built a lightning machine back in 1916 that generated over 10,000 amps and 100,000 volts. The reason some people survive is that they luck out with the path it takes through their body—so they might get scorched if it travels along the outside of their body, like if you're wet, but if their heart goes untouched, they could come out alive.

That's obviously wildly impractical—the sophistication and energy required for lightning-shooting machines would be more easily put toward acquiring nukes, a la every apocalyptic movie ever. Besides, there are far simpler machines that do a similar job when it comes to electrocuting people. Simple skin-penetrating Tasers already kill people occasionally. However, according to Adam, Tasers are designed with the 3-second-kill problem in mind—most pulse at much shorter intervals to avoid being fatal.

Still, we likely have little to fear from extinction by electrocution. With the exception of the admittedly clumsy electric chair, no one's ever systematically killed people with electricity. Machines, if they were to develop a murderous intent, would most likely use all of the other ways humans have designed to kill each other."

(in reply to MalcolmNathaniel)

Post #: 74

RE: Tens unit placement on females - 7/12/2013 12:57:13 AM

MalcolmNathaniel

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7 milliamps at what frequency?

Our bodies are basically very complicated electrical machines. There are electrical signals going through you body just by reading my post. Your optic nerve is an extremely complex electrical computer. I like to think that I am fairly clever, but I couldn't even begin to understand the optic nerve.

That is just the start of how you are able to read this post and I can't even understand that.

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Post #: 75

RE: Tens unit placement on females - 7/12/2013 1:06:42 AM

Darkfeather

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MalcolmNathaniel

7 milliamps at what frequency?

Our bodies are basically very complicated electrical machines. There are electrical signals going through you body just by reading my post. Your optic nerve is an extremely complex electrical computer. I like to think that I am fairly clever, but I couldn't even begin to understand the optic nerve.

That is just the start of how you are able to read this post and I can't even understand that.

our bodies may be complicated, but the heart isn't. Its just a simple pump, a muscle. Thats why it takes just 7 milliamps. Frequency is irreverent, as its not the wavelength that kills but the current. Did you read the quoted passage?

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Post #: 76

RE: Tens unit placement on females - 7/12/2013 1:29:06 AM

MalcolmNathaniel

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Here is a little something about electricity:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdrqdW4Miao

The heart is a little more complicated than you think. It's wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey.

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Post #: 77

RE: Tens unit placement on females - 7/12/2013 1:57:47 AM

Darkfeather

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MalcolmNathaniel

Here is a little something about electricity:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdrqdW4Miao

The heart is a little more complicated than you think. It's wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey.

hey thanks, you just proved my point. Definition of a Tesla coil by the way: A Tesla coil is an electrical resonant transformer circuit invented by Nikola Tesla around 1891. It is used to produce high-voltage, low-current, high frequency alternating-current electricity.

Oh, and if not clear, see bold and underlined word. Tesla knew more than anyone how electricity worked, how it killed, and how to make it safe. As for the heart, uhm, no. It is remember, the only, I repeat, only human organ we have managed to manufacture artificially. Implanted human lung, nope, implanted human kidney, nope. Implanted human heart, yep.

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Post #: 78

RE: Tens unit placement on females - 7/12/2013 3:02:08 AM

MalcolmNathaniel

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You are cute.

Very very wrong, but cute.

Way back when this thread started I told you, and everyone else, that at the right frequency, 15 micro-amps would do the job.

I stand by that statement.

You know, I kind of forgot to tell you the name of my last employer. He was a military dude. General something.

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Post #: 79

RE: Tens unit placement on females - 7/12/2013 3:19:20 AM

Darkfeather

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MalcolmNathaniel

You are cute.

Very very wrong, but cute.

Way back when this thread started I told you, and everyone else, that at the right frequency, 15 micro-amps would do the job.

I stand by that statement.

You know, I kind of forgot to tell you the name of my last employer. He was a military dude. General something.

Awww, thanks buttercup. But for some reason I tend to believe oh I dunno, Nicola Tesla over Mr. General Poopypants. And unless said general has performed open heart surgery in the past, present, or future (gotta cover all bases it seems), you might want to type that 7 milliamps and heart into a little search engine called Google, and see all these wonderful articles, webpages, etc about how its true. Then I might really consider going back to school man... Cause you do realize what the quoted article said, skin resistance? That the human body is HIGHLY resistant to electricity. Hence frequency really doesn't matter. Because at 7 milliamps, you would need to crack open the chest and touch the heart directly, and at 100,000 volts, stone melts fer chrissakes. Otherwise the human skin dissipates the charge. But why do I need to explain this, weren't you an electrical engineer or something?

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Post #: 80

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